Thinking back to the early years......what advice?

[El Presidente]

Weekend discussion. 

Fill out the brief poll and for those that have been around for a little while, think back to your first two years  buying Cuban cigars. 

FOH get's a lot of new Cuban cigar novices coming through. Once upon a time you were probably one of them or maybe you remember the days in the 90's when our NA brethren required a secret handshake and a code word for someone to give them an "in" with a particular vendor.  Times have changed (thankfully!) but many of the experiences when first starting out are the same. 

 

For those who have been around awhile. 

• Your best memory of those early years?
• Your biggest regret?
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

[JohnS]

• Your best memory of those early years?

My best memory is picking a number of Cohiba boxes when they were a lot cheaper, especially Piramides Extra and Siglo VI!

• Your biggest regret?

Without a doubt it is not picking up more stock that is now discontinued or in hiatus such as La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No.4 or Bolivar Coronas Gigantes.

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

I would have gone for more sampler options to see what I like if I had my time over again, instead of buying up whole boxes. 

[rcarlson]

• Your best memory of those early years?

The excitement of receiving the forbidden fruit.  X-mas-like anticipation for them to arrive.  Maybe things haven't changed.

• Your biggest regret?

Being too fickle to stash the great cigars I encountered and engaging with experienced smokers online.  

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Sampling.  Sticking with just a few marcas without expanding my horizons. 

[Justins123]

• Your best memory of those early years?

First shipment of Cuban cigars arriving at my door.  Definite "code word" needed situation with the vendor.  Pretty ridiculous in retrospect.  Half cab of June 1996 SLR PCs.  Still have one left.

• Your biggest regret?

Bought a box of the Festival Marevas for two hundred and some dollars.  Seemed like a fortune for that size cigar.  Vendor contacted me a few days later to let me know he had three boxes left and would give me a deal if I bought all three. I'm sure you can guess what I did.

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Discounts can sometimes be too good to be true.  There was a rash of discounted 1999-2000 Hoyo and SLR churchills (Punch too?) being offered back in the day.  Musty, terrible cigars that had obviously been stored poorly.  I of course have several boxes.  I should just trash them.

[Jason55555]

• Your best memory of those early years?

I joined this community in 2012 and now I’m 30ish...some years old which makes me a old man…. LOL the best years were trying various brands of NC & Cuban cigars. Figuring out the flavors of each marca and seeing what I enjoy in terms of “smoke flavor profile” and what I don’t like.

• Your biggest regret?

When you buy a box of cigars that you “Love” or for the “Hype” or lastly that you want to “Age” (Keep for future potential taste or collectability) Try to buy an extra box, but if that is not in your financial wheelhouse buy a 1 single or a few spares.

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Differently nothing its just like smoking cigars its a journey just enjoy it - Best piece of advice…. Don’t worry so much your humidity it is going to go off the rails and most of the time your cigars are not ruined, my cigars still taste amazing. Don’t worry about getting every LE or hottest Cuban cigars get what you can, when you can. Lastly reviews are not are not the gospel everyone has their own flavor pallet. You might taste a different flavor or like a different length or ring gauge BUT plz smoke one first and then make up your own dam mind.

Cheers!

[mprach024]

 

• Your best memory of those early years?

My first Monte 2 while playing Kiawah.  Trying all those cigars Id only read/dreamed about.  The taste of those first few years of Sig VI.  Mind blowing, eye opening, life ruining.

• Your biggest regret?

Like most, not buying extra boxes and stashing them, could be self funding my hobby right now had I bought smarter.

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Lots!  Why did I smoke all those ELs?  First they were bloody awful early on and second I could have sold them for a fortune!  By far my biggest regret was not addressing storage early enough.  Seems like a lot to drop $1000-$2000 on a cabinet, but in reality it’s a drop in the bucket on what I/we spend.  Having ability to store 2000-3000 can change how you approach the hobby greatly.  Might seem like overkill but it’s not.  I often bought to consume, refill as I ran low.  For many years all I had was a couple 90-100 ct humidors and it wasn’t conducive to holding long term as you’d need that space for smokers.  Aging came much later for me, I much regret not starting that sooner.  

I also regret not participating here earlier, signed up ages ago, and only started participating this last year.  I didn’t think there was much to learn after 20 years of smoking CCs, boy was I wrong.  

 

[Fosgate]

• Your best memory of those early years? 
  • smoking through the first new to habanos samplers (I ordered three of the same sampler to enjoy with friends) and discovering 3 that really hit the spot. 
• Your biggest regret? 
  • Giving away two many and not buying more as my stock deplenished
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?
  • Back then I used to smoke so many Non Cubans to keep from wasting my money on the same marka/vitola over and over again by keeping a spreadsheet that I would input the cigars info, size, published flavor profile, cost per stick etc and assign a personal score and compare it to others I smoked and state if I would buy it again based on personal ranking vs cost if I saw enough value in ordering it again. It's really easy to buy all the samplers smoke your way through all and find 5-10 that you really like and dismiss those that don't really impress you early on. This process works great for eliminating tasts in NC's that are already aged and really don't get any better. However, with cubans there are many that are kinda rough up front but given a couple years are waaay better and at 7yrs are just majic. To me thoses samplers are only good at finding the ones that smoke good early. (PD4's, SCDLH, HDME1&2's, RYJWC, TR's etc). I wish I would have gone through alll the samplers and really read up on each cigar before smoking to realize that potential both young and old so I could take that perspective on the cigar. While still scoring the early bloomers but also realizing the potential for the sizes that I also liked and still bought boxes of those to lay aside while I smoked those good young ones.

[shippers]

• Your best memory of those early years?

 My first proper not glass top boxed cuban while relatively sober. A friend brought me a HdM Epi 2 from the humidor at Soho Whisky Club, London. Even to my inexperienced palate I could pick up the cream, the marzipan/sugar coated almonds. It was a cracker! I have been chasing another Epi 2 experience like it since (with mixed results ?)

• Your biggest regret?

I am sensing a theme... I am still in the early years relative to some members but I wish I had brought more samplers & just thought a little more about what I was buying instead of being like a kid in a sweet shop. (Un)fortunately it is too easy to convince yourself to buy when five or less singles at UK prices often buys the entire box internationally. But I am slowly learning my lesson and focusing on tried and true favourites and getting samples of the rest.

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Buy a bigger humidor than you think you will need. I started off with a 25 count, rapidly graduating to a 100 with a 500 added in once I came back from Cuba. I am now eyeing up the much larger 1000+ count models. Cigars are a rabbit hole and unless you have the self discipline of a buddhist monk it is going to escalate! (And properly cared for Cigars are an investment don't you know ??)

[smbauerllc]

Your best memory of those early years?

The first Cigars I ever tasted were Cohiba Robustos.
Definitely picked a winner to start off with.

Your biggest regret?
Buying only cigars i knew I liked for years, rather than exploring new marcas and vitolas


Things you would you have done differently
Tried as many different marcas and vitolas as possible


your best piece of advice for newcomers?
Buy lots of multiple singles and 3,4 and 5 packs to try as much as possible


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[dominattorney]

Best memory,

Like many, being the cool kid with thr secret stash of forbidden fruit. Getting the hilarious customs letter and framing it in my office. 

Biggest regret,

Hard to regret too much of anything. I wish I went deep on monte especial when they were around. COLA used to cost around 500 a box too. My God. Bolivar corona Jr were sub 100 at the right place and time. Can't complain. Because my finances are stable and I can afford to splurge now, but damn. I'm not too worried about missing out on discontinued stock. 

Things I would do differently, 

Not worry about buying aged or vintage or discontinued boxes. Not worry about box codes. Buy lots of long skinnies and put them down in a secret humidor I could forget about for 5 years. Buy an extra 50 cab of punch DC. Not get suckered in by the allure of Cohiba, except Cola, sig 3 and 5, and corona especial. 

[joeypots]

 

• Your best memory of those early years?
• My friend Ray, a serious business traveler, would bring me Cuban cigars from all sorts of places. I smoked a CORO at his house one New Years eve, Y2K. I had smoked many Cuban cigars before that evening but that one did it. I was pretty much a 100% Cuban cigar smoker in 18 months.
• Your biggest regret?    
• Buying cigars that others said are good and ignoring my own preferences. Special releases like the Els  came into existence right around the time I got the CC bug. I finally looked at a cigar, much touted, and thought, "I don't care for this at all."
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers      
• Like others have said, sample, sample, sample, and learn about storage.  Special cigars like REs, Els, Books, and Jars can be Ok but they are also very expensive and often not very good. (At least to my taste) A new Cuban cigars smoker may be much happier with a solid box of Partagas Serie D4 than some double banded dollar gobber. IMHO.

[Chibearsv]

For those who have been around awhile. 

• Your best memory of those early years? - First cuban cigar ever was a Monte 2 sometime around 1995 and I thought it was wonderful, then I tried my first Esplendido and it's been my favorite cigar since.  It's always the cigar that just makes me happiest.
• Your biggest regret? - No big regrets, at the time I couldn't afford very much so I could only buy a box or 2 per year and never even considered aging them since I really enjoyed smoking them
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers? - There is no best cigar until you find it for yourself.  Build an affordable inventory of differing cigars in six packs so you can sample a lot until you find the gems that work for you.  Try different vitolas because even though you may think you only like XXXX, it's great when you are surprised how good something completely different may be.

[Corylax18]

I've only been smoking Cubans since 2008, but I started smoking cigars around 2005. In those 15 + years, I've learned the following:

• Your best memory of those early years? 
  • Grey Market cigar deliveries. It was like Christmas every time one of those boxes would show up, the risk . There were also lots of boxes sitting on shelves that where already 4-6 years old. You rarely see that anymore.
• Your biggest regret?
  • Wasting Time/Energy/Money on DBDGs, LEs, REs, Etc. Just because some guy in a magazine or on a website likes it, doesn't mean you will. As others have said, focus on trying several sticks (4-6) of many different marcas and Vitolas. This helps you understand your own palate and flavor preferences. I also wish I had gone to Cuba sooner, way sooner. Within the first couple days of my first trip I had a completely different view of cigars. 
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?
  • Ignore the "Noise". Cigars cost literally cents to make. Cigar companies must spend 5 or 10 times the money on packaging/marketing than they do raw materials (especially HSA) More expensive does NOT mean more better. Rarer doesn't equal tastier. More bands has no bearing on more enjoyment. Ignore the shiny carboard boxes and glittery pieces of paper glued to the cigars. None of that means anything, at all. Focus on your enjoyment (or lack there of) of the cigar, not all the shiny distracting objects around it. Those things are designed to part you and your money, that's it. Some of the best cigars I've ever smoked cost me $4-$5 bucks.

[ElJavi76]

• Your best memory of those early years? Splitting boxes of Cubans with friends. Like 25 cigars. LoL Now I can't buy enough on my own. I remember the days of getting Cubans sent bandless and getting the bands a week later. I'd dress ever single cigar with the bands. The good ole days.
• Your biggest regret? Not buying more Cubans early on in my journey. My cousin brought me back 3 boxes of Espléndidos from Cuba back in early 2000s. It was my first Cuban cigar. My brother and I smoked thru a box. I sold one for $250 and my brother sold the other for $200. Don't taze me bro.
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers? This whole sampling thing... there's a method to the madness. I've had a single cigar of cigar x and it's been shit or been great. Buy a box based on that 1 sample and total regret. (Punch 48/ Bolivar Libertadores come to mind) Make use of boxes offered in 10ers. If you have a new cigar buddy... split those 10ers. Smoke at least 5 cigars. Understand that consistency isn't a CC forte, but learn what you like. The other thing is if you see a great deal from a reputable vendor... jump in with both feet. I think back at some great deals from years gone by and I wanna taze myself bro. ($299 Medio Siglos bring a tear to my eye. $215 HUN2. $100 HUPC. ?)

[cigaraholic]

Best early memory: Reaching for my third cigar on my first day of smoking and my father saying “your gonna get sick”. I lit the Monte Especial and delighted in the chocolate, caramel, nought and roasted nuts and thought how could this make me sick....he didn’t say anything later when I lit my fourth?

Biggest regret: How few times in my 50+ years of smoking I’ve been able to walk into a cigar store and select my own cigars.

Best advice: Don’t let your cigar palate move, expand it. Mild, medium and full bodied cigars, there’s a time for all of them. Don’t get stuck in a cigar rut.

[BrightonCorgi]

My regret if I can say if it's a regret is not having a lot money 25 years ago.  A handful of cigars was like wow.  Especially at Canadian and Euro prices.  I had a lot of Saudi & Gulf friends that had plenty of Cuban Davidoff's and wanted to trade for "other stuff", but I should've went deep on them.

The other regret is not looking into buying Habanos online sooner.  I was a pioneer of buying other things online in late 90's, but never considered Habanos.  It wasn't until '04-'05 that I was buying them online.  Wish I had more money back then as well.  All cigars they practically gave away like Royal Selections, LGC's, and Monarch's are surly missed by me now.

[99call]

• Your best memory of those early years?   Early years of 98 99 ordering from Switzerland, mixtures of incredibly strong cheapies, and splash out cigars like QDO Gran Coronas, 898's.   In the early days of internet cigar purchasing, there was something very magical about it
• Your biggest regret? Although I feel as if I did make this realisation are various stages.   I think it's really important to learn as quickly as you can,  if you prefer wild young schizophrenic cigars,  or if you prefer more melded relaxed aged cigars.   As a young smoker, I feel as if a great deal of people, feel as if they should gravitate towards aged cigars, but whilst I enjoy them,  I prefer the fireworks, vibrancy, and cigars in their first 3 years. 
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers? Buy tubos!!!!   Tubos to me are a whole other world.  The best of both worlds.  Having a cigar that has been 'choked' and marinaded in its own oil, nicotine, moisture,  gives you a really special experience.   You get all the great attributes of vintage cigars, but without that washed out, under powered body/strength.     Vintage tubos, are without a doubt, the most interesting, complex smokes i've enjoyed. 

[Rhinoww]

Not much to add on the advice side as there are plenty of themes. 
best memory was buying a legit Monte 2. Went on a cruise w my sister and parents in maybe 92/93. Refused to buy a cigar on the boat or at a bar in the Caribbean. Had read up on a legit LCDH in I think maybe St Maarten. Small shop. Only Cubans. Smelled awesome. Got a Monte 2. Smoked it after dinner after we set sail fir the night. Old leaf was complex and flavorful. It also absolutely kicked my ass. 
I keep looking to repeat tgat Monte 2 experience. Have a psp box of 20 I’m hoping May get close. In a few years. 
 

this leads me to what I didn’t really appreciate, which is the collecting angle on this hobby. Bonus fun

[Hammer Smokin']

my best cigar memory was my first esplendidos. I enjoyed cigars to that point, but didn't know they could be "that" good. Only cigar that has come close is the CoLa. 

biggest regret was likely buying a ton of single in the beginning, instead of 3's. I would smoke a bad one, and think I don't like it...while it was just a bad single. Buying from B&M's was not the best start....and likely why many try a cigar and don't love it. We all can't smoke aged cubans off the top. over hydrated, over priced cubans is how most start out. 

advise is like everyone else. learn your own pallet, and trust it. Just cause someone else loves something, or doesn't, won't mean you will feel the same. 

[Chas.Alpha]

• Your best memory of those early years?

We traveled quite a bit during the late 70’s/early 80’s. My older brother bought me my 1st cigar in Paris. I think it was a Flor de Cano PC of some sort. Hangin’ with my bro (future ARMY recruit Doug, now retired ARMY Col. Doug) is amongst my favorite memories of smoking a Cuban cigar.

• Your biggest regret?

Many! I only found FOH/CigarCzar a couple of years ago. What’s up with that??? Here’s a recent one: 2019, I’m at the LCDH at the Habana Libre, on a quest for HUSW and Trinidad Fundadores. They only had about 12 singles of HUSW left in the box. I didn’t buy them. After inquiring about the Fundadores, and tipping well for the 7 Cristal light beers, the nice gentleman comes out from the back with TWO boxes of ARS 19 Fundys. He asked if I would like them both? No, just one... Big mistake. Stars of my show!

I fear leaving too many of the ‘19/20 stock left on the CigarCzar showroom floor may prove costly in the long term...

• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

A cigar shouldn’t be a status symbol. Find what you like and keep that. If you are buying the Cohiba Robusto because everyone knows that “Cohiba are the best”, your journey may take a little more time. I personally am on a MSU 19 Bolivar kick. Virtually everything from there/then has been spectacular! I hope that I have the fortitude to stash some back for the future...

[PuroDan]

Your best memory of those early years? My best memory of the early years was walking into my uncles garage in 92 and smelling the room note of a Cohiba Espy he was smoking. It smelled like somebody was baking a chocolate cake. That smell is one of the best smells my nose had the pleasure of smelling  I had never had a cigar before and asked my uncle if he would sell me one. I was pretty young at the time and my uncle told me i couldnt afford one and he gave me one. While smoking it i was buzzing hard and remember the deep notes of cocoa and a really nice citrus flavor. I was hooked and it was over. Been smoking Cubans exclusively ever since, chasing that first Espy flavor profile.  I did try some new world cigars and smoked some in cigar shops, but the room note was repugnant and the taste just wasnt even close to a Cuban cigar. Every year i will smoke the 5 most popular NW cigars and they disappoint every year. I can spend 5-6 bucks on a Cuban minuto that will outperform a 20 dollar NW cigar every time. Remember.... This is just my opinion. Times are different now as Cuba has changed the blends of many great cigars to cater to the instant gratification culture we live in. They are still great cigars, just dont age as long/well imo. Nothing like an old school Cuban that would knock you on the ground and deliver intense flavor and aromas.

Your biggest regret? My biggest regret was not stocking up on HDM Des Dieux cabs in 05. My brother still has a full cab left. Made many offers for that lone cab, including a 94 subaru beater, a Winston Boron lllx fly rod and Lamson lightspeed reel and my brother just laughs every time i ask.

Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

I wouldnt have spent thousands of dollars on EL and RE when they came around. I went through that phase and regret it big time. If only i would have stocked up on RP instead i would be much better off. My advice to the newcomers is to find the Cubans you like and stock up on them. Try em all as some not so popular ones will surprise you.  Age them to your liking even though (most cubans smoke great young these days) many still need time down to reach their peak performance level. Dont forget to thank God for the Cuban people and their labor. There is no doubt in my mind that Cuban Cigars are BY FAR the best/most unique tasting cigars in the world

[Habana Mike]

• Your best memory of those early years?
  • Finally getting the secret handshake and code word. Opened up a whole new world. I was only getting Habanos back then (~2000) when I traveled to Canada. Opened up a whole world (Switzerland, Spain, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Australia, etc.). Having cabs of 50 BPC, BCE, Partagas Lusis. SLR Lonsdales, Punch SS#1 and SS#2. 
• Your biggest regrets?
  • Never picking up the Trini Fundadores 50 cabs. Smoking through all my Cuban cigars in the early 2000s when out of work.
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

  • I would have smoked more and read less. Form your own opinions, smoke what you like.

[Connoisseur Kim]

• Your best memory of those early years?
  • My first CC was Cohiba Siglo II Tubo at now closed Malaysian cigar lounge.  I really enjoyed the flavour profile of Cohiba Siglo II and dug deeper into CCs even more with CORO, Party Shorts, and Mag 46 from other B&Ms. After I found CCs from B&Ms were too wet, I found FOH on Malaysian cigar blogger called Aizuddin (sad to see he isn't no longer on FOH) and decided to join in FOH on 2016 ASAP. Since then, I'm really happier than ever!
• Your biggest regret?
  • Never picked up 50 cab of SLR DC and other precious discontinued CCs like BCG. I also regretted that I didn't get a box of LGC MdO No. 4, which hasn't shown on the market for 5 years (really enjoyed LGC MdO No. 4 a lot). Recent regret is I couldn't do any Kimfessions Series for while since "Kimfessions: Montecristo No. 1 and Audiophile Cigar Lounge" due to COVID-19 spike.
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?
  • Focus on affordable Cuban cigar sizes such as Petit Corona; Petit Robusto; Robusto; Corona Extra at first (Corona; Corona Gorda; Robusto Extra; Double Robusto; Slim Panetela; Panetela; Lonsdale; Pyramid if you want a bit longer). Super long CCs like Churchill can be too complex and challenging for you unless you're familiar with the art of flavour (e.g. cologne).
  • Get either big ass Tupperdor or Coolidor for bang for buck long-term CC storage vessels until you have enough budget to buy Wineador or Cigar Cabinet instead of buying multiple desktop humidors; both Tupperdor and Coolidor have better sealing and pricing with more room than desktop humidors.
  • Get great reliable cigar tools such as Colibri V-Cut, XIKAR Executive II, and FOH Lighter for better quality of CC life, since ghetto cigar tools don't perform well (tried to light a CC with a BIC before and my finger almost got roasted like a BBQ meat LOL).
  • Don't be afraid of discovering various flavours from different CC marcas. Each CC marca has own unique characteristics and even each offering in the marca tastes differently as well (e.g. Party Shrots vs Lusitanias).
  • For buying new CCs, don't jump straight into whole boxes, but instead go for 5ers/6ers/12ers. As I mentioned above, every CCs have unique tastes and because of this, new CCs can be either your all time classic or your worst nightmare.
  • Once you receive CC shipments, please let them have at least 90 days of rest instead of doing ROTT. During transit, CC shipments experienced rapid temp/RH swings that cause uneven burn; acidic/sour taste; ammonium odor; tight draw; mold problem. If you really want to check the evolution of CC shipments' flavor over time, try to sample them 30 days apart.
  • Don't let the size fool you! CCs such as Party Shorts, LGC MdO No. 4, and Monte No. 1 are absolutely taste better than tasteless donkey dick rocket cigars like Gurkha Cigars.

[Meklown]

Your best memory of those early years?

First ever puff was of my friend's stick (monte, I think) on the balcony of the chalet we rented in Meribel, 3 valleys. 

After, I got some boxes myself and started exploring. 

Your biggest regret?

I didn't at that moment realise that I was smoking at rather the top end of the pile. Esplendidos, 1966, etc were rather regular smokes, I regret not buying and keeping more to age. I probably should have looked for advice and opinions of experienced smokers rather than simply trying to trial and error my way through. I definitely learned much more in the past 2 years since I joined FOH as compared to the preceding 8 years. 

Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers?

Buy more samplers rather than full boxes. It pays to learn about your palate and your preferences earlier so you can start accumulating stock of stuff you like. I mainly went for full boxes and only smoked one/week so I really could only try 2 boxes a year. 

 

Edit to add to the best memory: would love to go back to my final year of uni, booked myself and (then) gf a night at a 5* hotel in Monte Carlo, had a dinner in the michelin starred restaurant the, and smoking a Behike after. Beautiful evening.

[smbauerllc]

• Your best memory of those early years?   Early years of 98 99 ordering from Switzerland, mixtures of incredibly strong cheapies, and splash out cigars like QDO Gran Coronas, 898's.   In the early days of internet cigar purchasing, there was something very magical about it
• Your biggest regret? Although I feel as if I did make this realisation are various stages.   I think it's really important to learn as quickly as you can,  if you prefer wild young schizophrenic cigars,  or if you prefer more melded relaxed aged cigars.   As a young smoker, I feel as if a great deal of people, feel as if they should gravitate towards aged cigars, but whilst I enjoy them,  I prefer the fireworks, vibrancy, and cigars in their first 3 years. 
• Things you would you have done differently - your best piece of advice for newcomers? Buy tubos!!!!   Tubos to me are a whole other world.  The best of both worlds.  Having a cigar that has been 'choked' and marinaded in its own oil, nicotine, moisture,  gives you a really special experience.   You get all the great attributes of vintage cigars, but without that washed out, under powered body/strength.     Vintage tubos, are without a doubt, the most interesting, complex smokes i've enjoyed. 

I agree about Tubos. I always buy everything in Tubos that I can. Worth the extra dollar or two for the damage proofing and I also feel they have a different taste than non-tubos

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