That creeping inevitability...

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Bords said:

Also the weird anti-science thing going on is like a regression of the collective IQ. One example is the people insisting that the virus is too small for masks to be effective, but it is widely known that the virus is contained in droplets that ARE caught by a mask.
 

Correct.

Collective IQ is set by example.

Watching the soccer league cup final - Bayern Munich-Leverkusen, 2-nil so far first half. Bayern will clinch it, again ...

Playing at Olympia Stadium in Berlin. Capacity is 74.475 spectators.
No spectators allowed.

Each team has 125 guests invited watching, so 250 persons total in that stadium ... so 74.225 seats are empty. Still : everyone is wearing a mask despite sitting well apart ...

No but's, no if's, no maybe's, - no discussion needed.

You play by the rules of common sense and science and set an example for the better protection of all.

Even watching it on tv I feel safe.

.

[dominattorney]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

So you fine with a chip being implanted into you?  Since they are tracking you already, right? 

Not at all. Just pointing out that they are likely tracking you already so the para oil about the creeping chip is mostly a red herring. 

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

Glass coffee cup Ray!? The only thing missing is some king size rolling papers. Always knew you were just a big hippy.  Happy Independence day you cranky old dog.   Enjoy

That is double walled borosilicate glass. You see I believe in proven scientific theories.

Lady Piggy... now she was a hippie and she just loves the look!

Common ground can be achieved!!!

[dominattorney]

19 minutes ago, PigFish said:

That is double walled borosilicate glass. You see I believe in proven scientific theories.

Lady Piggy... now she was a hippie and she just loves the look!

Common ground can be achieved!!!

I can't believe guys like you and I can keep a wife. Cheers mate. Don't let go. 

[PigFish]

45 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

I can't believe guys like you and I can keep a wife. Cheers mate. Don't let go. 

Shhhhh!

Now she wants a Porsche.?

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, rcarlson said:

To which I renew my original comment, "thank God."  

I do see that the UK has considerable angst over Brexit and immigration policies.  From a distance I'm not seeing much joy of late.    

do you honestly think that the USA is a country brimming with joy at the moment? 

i've lived in the UK, the USA and here. loved my time everywhere. the UK, a couple of years was enough. the USA, i really did love living there and in the end, making the decision as to whether to stay for good or to return to australia was probably the toughest decision of my life. i agonised over it for ages but the reasons to come home marginally outweighed those to stay there. and i think that period, where i was deciding, was the only time in my life i have suffered any form of depression (i guess i am very fortunate if that is all).

but i look at the states now in comparison to the time i spent there and i am horrified. i see a country tearing itself apart. this isn't just this year. it seems to have been slowly heading this way for some time, which i think is extremely sad.

as for freedom, i understand what out UK friend is saying. some of what americans believe is necessary to ensure their 'freedom', i would see as impinging on mine (and this played a small role in the decision to return). australia is far from perfect but there are some things that make me think we do 'freedom' better than almost anywhere else. some that don't. i don't expect everyone to agree with this, and nor am i going to go down the rabbithole arguing it. i am perfectly happy to accept others have different views. 

[rcarlson]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

do you honestly think that the USA is a country brimming with joy at the moment? 

 

No.  The comparison didn't belong to me.   

[BoliDan]

I stopped reading this thread a while back... That was a mistake.

?  

[Colt45]

3 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but i look at the states now in comparison to the time i spent there and i am horrified. i see a country tearing itself apart. this isn't just this year. it seems to have been slowly heading this way for some time, which i think is extremely sad.

Well KG, as always, I can only speak for myself. We've always had to / been willing to fight for ourselves. Stand up for ourselves - on many levels, in many ways.

It's been that way in the past, it's certainly that way now, and hopefully, it will continue to be that way in the future - homogenization and gentrification be damned.

At her worst, there is no place on earth I'd rather call home.

[Ken Gargett]

1 hour ago, Colt45 said:

Well KG, as always, I can only speak for myself. We've always had to / been willing to fight for ourselves. Stand up for ourselves - on many levels, in many ways.

It's been that way in the past, it's certainly that way now, and hopefully, it will continue to be that way in the future - homogenization and gentrification be damned.

At her worst, there is no place on earth I'd rather call home.

colt, no argument on all that. i am sure that "home" brands an imprint on most of us which has us preferring/or at least happy with that life, for all its faults, and i think that is probably how it should be. a good thing. 

all that said, these arguments/discussions/differences have, to me, gone so far beyond the simple argument of is it a good thing to wear a ,mask or not. this has become an entirely different conversation, not always a bad thing.

however, if we did revert back to the 'should we wear a mask or not' debate, i still fall in the camp of yes, those, in whatever country where there is an issue with the virus, should wear a mask if engaging others. just for the short period until this is resolved. also distancing and isolation. once we have defeated this, all good and this is in the past. i don't see any great conspiracy in this. nations will not fall (although citizens may die). i don't see it leading to microchipping or branding or citizens herded together for extermination (colt, i am not aiming this at your comments at all - just my general thoughts re all this). i don't see it as some evil plot to deprive americans or the citizens of any country of their liberty. for me, it is merely a very minor sacrifice, in the overall scheme of things, to protect one's own health and that of one's family, friends and fellow citizens. i realise that the economic implications of the lockdown will impact some more than others, but that is going further than i am thinking at the moment. assuming lockdowns are in place, then surely wearing masks will help get those lockdowns lifted sooner. which may save some, if we are talking economically. 

i simply see it as the best way, at the moment, to beat this virus. if someone comes up with something better which does not involve masks or distancing, i suspect i'll be all for that. 

anyway, i suspect that i have banged on about my general thoughts on this more than enough, so i might bow out now (not sure how long it will last, but i'll try). 

[BoliDan]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

 i don't see it leading to microchipping or branding or citizens herded together for extermination (colt, i am not aiming this at your comments at all - just my general i don't see it as some evil plot to deprive americans or the citizens of any country of their liberty. for me, it is merely a very minor sacrifice, in the overall scheme of things, to protect one's own health and that of one's family, friends and fellow citizens. 

Its not even protection for yourself. When people are getting dirty looks for not wearing a mask, it is doubtful they give a damn about your health. They might live with an elderly family member or have a child with complications that make the virus lethal. You may be asymptomatic and breathing. Getting the virus on other's clothing or in their masks. Which they can bring home and lose a family member.

It is a common respect and decency of the people around you, and not protection for yourself. No-one cares if non-mask wearers get the virus... it is that those people care more about their freedom than the possibly causing a death to other people's loved ones that surround them.

I don't care if I get it. In fact I'm positive I have had it. I don't wear a mask for political reasons. I do it because I don't want to be a vehicle for someone else's loss/misery. 

I agree mask wearing should not be a law. It should just be something we do out of a common agreement among men not endanger people. The person scoffing at you might have child with diabetes or cancer. And you exerting your freedom around them could be a death sentence. It is a small sacrifice, and is the right thing to do for your country as well as your neighbor. It should not be a law, but it is obvious why it needs to come to that as people don't even respect businesses that have every right to establish the terms on if you can be serviced.

If I'm around a bunch of people that dont want to wear a mask, I don't wear one either. I don't like em, I prefer not to. But in public, I would not presume the person near me is ok with that, I don't know their home/health situation so I respect them no matter how uncomfortable they make me. I may very well be breathing something deadly.

 

[Capt. Corona]

8 hours ago, BoliDan said:

I agree mask wearing should not be a law. It should just be something we do out of a common agreement among men not endanger people.

Wearing out of a common agreement is a nice thought but look around.  As previously mentioned getting two people to agree on something that each feels is plain common sense but totally opposite of each other thoughts is a pipe dream.  Growing up we all have been rewarded with goodies for doing what we have been asked to do.  Be good and don't make me the parent look unfit while we're in the store and you can have some candy when we get home.  Clean your room and you can go out and play with your friends. These are just a couple examples we all have probably heard and been through growing up.  These were not enacted laws but rules we were asked to follow to get want we want.(and our parents wanted)  I see nothing wrong with an executive order (because face the reality, there is no common agreement) for everyone to mask up when in a public setting and social distancing isn't an option to get what we all want.  Most here in the states have already experienced executive order lockdowns on businesses yet they are absolutely reluctant on the mask thing and leave it up to the individuals who are still trying to decide on what they want to eat for supper tonight. I can not tell you how many stores and places I've been to that have signs so large that the blind would be able to read them asking people to please be respectful of others and mask up before and during their time in said store.  Yet as I move through to get my things I need to survive I encounter many who are not wearing any face covering and are basically just saying to me without opening their mouths "I am not a respectful person and I don't give a rats ass about me or you."  Mind blown!

[MPS]

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/05/who-underplaying-risk-of-airborne-spread-of-covid-19-say-scientists

 

I'm sorry but all I see is an ever-changing beat on this thing. Don't wear a mask, wear a mask but not n95 so sorry those are for people much more important than you, Hydroxychloroquine will kill you before Covid-19 does, Hydroxychloroquine actually works now so sorry we only told you it didn't because orange man bad, we need respirators or everyone will die, whoops so sorry we killed you on that respirator but at least we got our 30k, you can catch Covid-19 by touching things, no so sorry you don't have to wipe down your groceries, its not in the air, its in the air but its in droplets so big even a scarf around your mouth will work lol, whoops sorry again its aerosol so you probably need that N95 that we told you you didn't! Oh and your kids, make sure to punish them by upending their lives altogether because they will all die, whoops so sorry but kids don't really get or transmit Covid-19 but lets still punish them because were all a bunch of idiots. Wait, don't celebrate July 4th cause Covid-19 but protest because Black Lives Matter. 

 

 

[PigFish]

On 7/3/2020 at 6:07 PM, Ken Gargett said:

morning again, Ray. great shame you don't live closer and we could discuss this on the balcony at length. only if you were willing to wear a mask, of course. 

all i did was quote your examples. if they are not appropriate, the easy answer is not to use them?? 

we have never been far apart on the overall view of most things and also in the use of 'greater good'. but that does not mean that just occasionally, the greater good is relevant. it does not always lead to hitler. that barn door might already be swinging in the wind. 

i am simply talking about the mask v no-mask (and toss in isolation/distancing if you want). i am not talking about manning the barricades to save us from the four horsemen. whether you like it or not,

every single one of us has endless rules and limitations placed upon us. we live with them (sure, many we could probably happily exist without, but no one gets this exactly right). many we might not like. others we would not want it any other way. wearing masks is not something from way out in left field. and unlike so many of the restrictions/regulations/rules etc under which we exist, assuming that the virus is defeated, at least largely so (probably will be with us in some form forever), then they'll go. i think we are the perfect example of that. as i mentioned, we are down to minimal impact here in Queensland. masks are largely gone. i'm sure some will feel safer wearing them but most won't now. and that should not be a problem. if it turns out to be so, then we will revisit it. 

someone mentioned seat belts. i am just old enough to vaguely remember that many here screamed blue murder at having this restriction placed on us. many insisted they would never do it. this was an unacceptable imposition on their liberty, civil rights, right to be an imbecile if they wanted to be. these days, who bitches about seat belts? i suspect most under 30 or 40 would think it is such an obvious thing to do, and i also suspect none feel that their liberty has been infringed. to be honest, yes, i think we can safely say that those making those claims about seat belts were indeed idiots. on that issue. 

there are countless laws regulations etc, which protect people, which limit the actions of individuals in order to preserve the safety of others or even themselves. wearing masks is a really minor one. 

if you are in an area impacted by the virus, is it really such an imposition to wear a mask? to distance? to act with a modicum of responsibility to prevent harm to your neighbours? just for a few months until we beat this?

this site seems to largely think that this is an american issue. it is most obviously not. it is not a conspiracy by faceless men to attack america, to benefit one side of politics or the other. it is a fricking virus. and it will do what it does wherever it is. there 130,000 plus deaths in the states, more than half a million worldwide. no doubt many more to come. 

ray, if terrorists attacked america killing that number and people were told that simply wearing a mask will help to defeat them, would you still refuse? 

sorry ray but you will never convince me that anyone who wants their neighbours to act responsibly in relation to this virus is a form of bigotry. i think that suggestion is utter nonsense. 

I enjoyed this read Ken... as I have many of the thoughts an opinions here.

As usual, I have in some ways made this thread my own. Many of you have no idea what I am talking about, and that is cool... It is my own way of playing with the community and seeing what level they will actually engage on. I admit... I am mostly misunderstood, and that is of my own making. I believe, I am assumed to be the poster pig for not wearing a mask at this point. My actual point, was not about anything like that at all, and a few people got it!

I don't post here to make enemies. And sometime the things I say are pretty harsh, so in those cases I try to be deliberately vague. i am going to quote a post... not to pick on the poster, but to point out a way of thinking that I believe is exactly what I said it was.

Bigoted thinking!

I detest these arrogant, ignorant Aholes that run around spewing out how it's against their civil rights to be told they have to wear a mask (face covering) when in a public environment and social distancing isn't an option.

Just to be fair. The statement says that people that don't act a certain way, social distant, wear mask, they are arrogant, ignorant Aholes...!

 

I am going to change this slightly and you tell me if this would get me kicked off this board...

I detest these arrogant, ignorant orange people, that run around spewing out how it's against their civil rights to ...

 

I am not saying that this person has no right to their view. I am not saying this person is a bigot...! I am saying this is a bigoted statement!

If I am going to lump people as a class of people, condemn them (all) for the actions of a some, I am a bigot! That is my statement. Classing all individuals, and condemning them base on my superiority of view... is bigoted!

There is no difference in this thought process, if I said that these were all people under 4'10", yellow haired, bald, fat or a different color than me!!!

This is as far as I will take it. The board here may not far well with an intense conversation of the rights of man, his own mind and what it means to have a government attempt to reprogram it.

My posts are somewhat about that. About some of what is happening in America, and those whose actions they believe are oriented around a certain cause that display the very behavior they claim to condemn.

Have fun with this one folks!!! -LOL

-the Pig

 

[PigFish]

 

Having a bit more fun with this topic...

Some folks have brought up science... Others, seat belts, and need for centralize authority models in the US...

I say when top down, centralized decisions are made, they are typically made for the worse. To me, centralized authority makes more mistakes than successes. Enjoy the off topic read if you are up for it.

Up with republicanism... Down with central authority!!! Long live the republic!

Cheers!

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2010/04/death_by_cafe_standards.html

 

 

[rcarlson]

13 hours ago, BoliDan said:

Its not even protection for yourself. When people are getting dirty looks for not wearing a mask, it is doubtful they give a damn about your health. They might live with an elderly family member or have a child with complications that make the virus lethal. You may be asymptomatic and breathing. Getting the virus on other's clothing or in their masks. Which they can bring home and lose a family member.

It is a common respect and decency of the people around you, and not protection for yourself. No-one cares if non-mask wearers get the virus... it is that those people care more about their freedom than the possibly causing a death to other people's loved ones that surround them.

I don't care if I get it. In fact I'm positive I have had it. I don't wear a mask for political reasons. I do it because I don't want to be a vehicle for someone else's loss/misery. 

I agree mask wearing should not be a law. It should just be something we do out of a common agreement among men not endanger people. The person scoffing at you might have child with diabetes or cancer. And you exerting your freedom around them could be a death sentence. It is a small sacrifice, and is the right thing to do for your country as well as your neighbor. It should not be a law, but it is obvious why it needs to come to that as people don't even respect businesses that have every right to establish the terms on if you can be serviced.

If I'm around a bunch of people that dont want to wear a mask, I don't wear one either. I don't like em, I prefer not to. But in public, I would not presume the person near me is ok with that, I don't know their home/health situation so I respect them no matter how uncomfortable they make me. I may very well be breathing something deadly.

 

Dan, you and I pretty much approach it in the same way.  However, I think viewing the mask debate as a clash between the courteous and discourteous glosses over a deeper, more multifaceted conflict that is unlikely to be resolved and goes well-beyond the mask-wearing issue. 

There are idiots.  There are always idiots.

There are also always the selfish "pee on the toilet seat" types that will not wear a mask because they don't really give a damn about others.  These people have and will always reside among us and aggravate the ever lovin' sh!t out of those that have more respect for their fellow man.  All decent people hate a selfish, antisocial, asshole. 

There are those that rightly (or wrongly) distrust the politicians and so-called experts.  And why shouldn't they when we have all seen that time and time again "the science" and "the rules" change after being presented with absolute certitude, leaders make selective agenda-driven application of "the rules" depending on what benefits their preferred group, and outright lies come from them for the most corrupt of reasons?  If you look, you'll see that a good case can be made for and against wearing masks in public, social isolation, acceptable risk of infection etc., etc. And of course there are those that do look, choose whom they will believe, and are often proved right. Pointing to the same unreliable sources to persuade is futile, as is calling their beliefs ignorant when they are not.  They honestly ain't buyin' it.

Then there is the "FU" crowd: those that are pushing back against the snobbish contempt coming at them from all angles.  The FU crowd refuses to be obedient as a matter of principle. It's not about being thoughtful, courteous, or managing the virus.  It's about not being controlled by those that don't really care about them, and often hate them.  The thing about the FU crowd is that they reside on both sides of every issue, it just depends on which side is perceived to be exerting control.  And there is no doubt a lot of non-Fus totally getting their rocks off for no other reason than exerting control of others.   

The FU crowd is the one that I think some here don't "get" by confusing them for one of the other types.  The non-FUs fail to appreciate the very real threat to their long term safety, security, and prosperity felt by the Fus because they don't feel it themselves.  Yeah, yeah. . . there are two sides to every coin.  But I don't find much virtue in heaping more ridicule and contempt onto those that have had enough of it, and although I wish it weren't so, it's why I think trying to impose another lockdown is more than a fool's errand; it's inviting irreparable harm.  The mask issue at this point is a miniscule part of a much larger issue.                  

[99call]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

It is my own way of playing with the community and seeing what level they will actually engage on. I admit... I am mostly misunderstood, and that is of my own making

Nothing to do with the topic Ray,  but holy moly,  maybe a touch self indulgent?

I'm envisaging Sir Laurence Olivier, in Clash of the Titians moving clay figures around of the mortals, up in Mount Olympus.  I must confess whenever I see you've posted, I do hear the words in my head "release the Kracken!"

Or maybe I'm being bigoted, i've lost track of where this has got to. 

 

 

[PigFish]

33 minutes ago, 99call said:

Nothing to do with the topic Ray,  but holy moly,  maybe a touch self indulgent?

I'm envisaging Sir Laurence Olivier, in Clash of the Titians moving clay figures around of the mortals, up in Mount Olympus.  I must confess whenever I see you've posted, I do hear the words in my head "release the Kracken!"

Or maybe I'm being bigoted, i've lost track of where this has got to. 

 

 

I post at times wholly for the enlightenment of the community. Sometimes for their amusement at my cost... Other times for my own amusement (at theirs).

I always bow to you, my peers and say, I am glad you are still reading me!!! -LOL 

I would call this thread a think piece and somewhat of a public service announcement!! ? 

Cheers mate! -R

[Colt45]

16 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

colt, no argument on all that. i am sure that "home" brands an imprint on most of us which has us preferring/or at least happy with that life, for all its faults, and i think that is probably how it should be. a good thing. 

all that said, these arguments/discussions/differences have, to me, gone so far beyond the simple argument of is it a good thing to wear a ,mask or not. this has become an entirely different conversation, not always a bad thing.

Of course Ken - and I'd sincerely hope that you and everyone else would understand that I've zero animus - though admittedly, I am a bit weary. I think the only reason I posted is that I don't think you should be sad (though you can be if you like, of course). I think we're simply molting, again.

[Ken Gargett]

5 hours ago, PigFish said:

I enjoyed this read Ken... as I have many of the thoughts an opinions here.

As usual, I have in some ways made this thread my own. Many of you have no idea what I am talking about, and that is cool... It is my own way of playing with the community and seeing what level they will actually engage on. I admit... I am mostly misunderstood, and that is of my own making. I believe, I am assumed to be the poster pig for not wearing a mask at this point. My actual point, was not about anything like that at all, and a few people got it!

I don't post here to make enemies. And sometime the things I say are pretty harsh, so in those cases I try to be deliberately vague. i am going to quote a post... not to pick on the poster, but to point out a way of thinking that I believe is exactly what I said it was.

Bigoted thinking!

I detest these arrogant, ignorant Aholes that run around spewing out how it's against their civil rights to be told they have to wear a mask (face covering) when in a public environment and social distancing isn't an option.

Just to be fair. The statement says that people that don't act a certain way, social distant, wear mask, they are arrogant, ignorant Aholes...!

 

I am going to change this slightly and you tell me if this would get me kicked off this board...

I detest these arrogant, ignorant orange people, that run around spewing out how it's against their civil rights to ...

 

I am not saying that this person has no right to their view. I am not saying this person is a bigot...! I am saying this is a bigoted statement!

If I am going to lump people as a class of people, condemn them (all) for the actions of a some, I am a bigot! That is my statement. Classing all individuals, and condemning them base on my superiority of view... is bigoted!

There is no difference in this thought process, if I said that these were all people under 4'10", yellow haired, bald, fat or a different color than me!!!

This is as far as I will take it. The board here may not far well with an intense conversation of the rights of man, his own mind and what it means to have a government attempt to reprogram it.

My posts are somewhat about that. About some of what is happening in America, and those whose actions they believe are oriented around a certain cause that display the very behavior they claim to condemn.

Have fun with this one folks!!! -LOL

-the Pig

 

ray, clearly my brain has decided this is all too much for me. or perhaps still too early. i read your post and i am sitting here wondering why is ray writing about big toads. what have big toads got to do with this? before i realised that my useless brain could not process 'bigoted' any more and turned it into a big toad. perhaps there was something not strictly tobacco in rob's latest cigars? 

i will be so glad when we can talk about all this in the past tense. 

[Yellot00tr]

To do nothing is the way to be nothing - Hawthorne.

America will always tear itself apart and build back stronger. Look at our past. Revolution, civil war, societal unrest, rampant racism, huge numbers of disenfranchised, political strife, war on drugs, assassinations, it goes on and on. This nation was built on the back of suffering. 

[MrBirdman]

I think that the mask reticence touches on a couple elements in American society, particularly a deeply-rooted suspicion of collective action of any kind when the government is involved. There is also a fear among some conservatives that the mask orders amount to a "behavioral conditioning" program to get Americans to follow government orders, in preparation for a more widespread institutionalization of "socialism." It isn't helped by the increase in paranoid language used by the right in this country (not that liberals are innocent in that regard). I expect that these anxieties also partly underlie the growing resistance to getting vaccinated once one is (God-willing) available. I have also heard some people say that they won't accept a vaccine because it'll contain a microchip for tracking them. My significant other's mother won't accept a shot "that Bill Gates has anything to do with." Oy.

My own position is that this is a public health emergency, and the response requires action by the public, not only those individuals who feel like wearing a mask or getting vaccinated - the reason simply being that the whole response doesn't really work otherwise (or is far less effective). If wearing a mask was a question of protecting yourself then maybe the equation would shift, but masks are for protecting others. This isn't a virus where you can say "well I don't feel sick" because asymptomatic transmission is the whole reason it's creating a crisis at all. Same for vaccination, which is protection for both you and those who can't get vaccinated for health reasons (e.g. childhood leukemia patients).

The idea that this is training for government takeover of our lives assumes that people are agreeing to masks without considering whether the order is reasonable. If the government ordered masks out of nowhere you might be on to something. But it's a scientifically supported mitigation measure. If the government told me tomorrow to start wearing pink underwear everyday, I'd tell them to {BLEEP] off. 

Nor would I be willing to be micro-chipped, for the record. I know we basically are already with phones, but my phone isn't an implant I can't remove (yet!).

[Kitchen]

On 7/2/2020 at 6:38 PM, Capt. Corona said:

Maybe you are correct as we look back at things.  Hide sight is always 20-20.  It's the future that is unknown and with so many things unknown about the virus when the preverbal shit hit the fan they had no choices but to shut down and lock down because of the unknown.  Looking back at the Vietnam war we lost approx 60,000 american lives for that senseless pile of crap also.  See how easy it is to "look back" at things and and determine what we should have done.

The debate is ramped up about how this disease gets transmitted.  I believe it would be better to say predominately indoor settings than exclusively.  They shut down ALL activities indoor and out here in Arizona again so I'll debate the heat and sun thing all you want about it being hysteria.

Yes, but you need depth at your looking back.  If McNamara had never been appointed and we had a real military man, we probably would have won.  

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, Kitchen said:

Yes, but you need depth at your looking back.  If McNamara had never been appointed and we had a real military man, we probably would have won.  

i don't want to get into a historical debate but whoa!

mcnamara's review (think pentagon papers) showed that presidents long before he was on the scene were aware that there was bugger all chance of winning. no one wanted to be the one to have a loss attributed to them so they kept pouring money and soldiers in. senseless. of course, it is all way more complicated than that. 

one can blame mcnamara for a lot but he didn't get the states (or us) into it and he can hardly be blamed for that.

as for a real military man winning it, is there any evidence of that? as much as many would love to think that was true, i know of none. short of nuclear war, which would have left nothing, the viet cong were always going to win. everyone would not accept that because how the hell could american military (plus allies) might be defeated by little yellow men in the jungle. we saw how. it was a stuff up at every stage and at every level. 

[Kitchen]

23 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i don't want to get into a historical debate but whoa!

mcnamara's review (think pentagon papers) showed that presidents long before he was on the scene were aware that there was bugger all chance of winning. no one wanted to be the one to have a loss attributed to them so they kept pouring money and soldiers in. senseless. of course, it is all way more complicated than that. 

one can blame mcnamara for a lot but he didn't get the states (or us) into it and he can hardly be blamed for that.

as for a real military man winning it, is there any evidence of that? as much as many would love to think that was true, i know of none. short of nuclear war, which would have left nothing, the viet cong were always going to win. everyone would not accept that because how the hell could american military (plus allies) might be defeated by little yellow men in the jungle. we saw how. it was a stuff up at every stage and at every level. 

I feel my response was a little too close to USA politics.  Deleted.