That creeping inevitability...

[Fugu]

We simply ARE social beings. We've come to see that there are some conventions we (read: society) eventually agreed upon, that make our lives easier. If wearing a face cover in this situation may be one of them, even if not yet 100-percent effective or 100-percent proven, this truly is trifle (no?). Even more so, if it aids in preventing another full lock-down. There really is nothing to win debating the use of face masks in public and under certain circumstances (personal freedom - seriously?!!), but a lot to lose - in particular a lot more of said personal freedom.

[Markspring1978]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

Reading quite a lot of posts coming from across the pond, one thing that constantly has me scratching my head is the obsession with freedom. 

This is why we, Americans, aren’t part of the British Empire today. We are obsessed with freedom, and that, I would humbly submit is a good thing. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it from afar, but it is what we choose to be. 

Sure freedom is a little messy sometimes. And there is certainly risk that accompanies it. But that is what we choose and I’m good with it. This is not to say that, in a free society, personal responsibility is not paramount. Freedom only works when individuals govern themselves. This goes both ways. I’m not a fan of masks, and their effectiveness is debatable, but I’ll wear one out of consideration for others. But, if you are in an at-risk demographic, why are you leaving your house to eat out, protest, or do anything, mask or no mask? 

Many Americans are reacting to this issue because so many areas of their freedom have been infringed. I’ve been to Japan, and it’s an interesting country with nice people. But, having lived with the blessings of freedom, I would be miserable if I lived there. Most people don’t even know what freedom feels like because either they haven’t experienced it, or their freedoms have been so eroded over time, that they don’t recognize the bondage for what it is. This is particularly noteworthy in the arena of freedom of thought and freedom of conscience. 

[99call]

7 hours ago, rcarlson said:

Thank God.  

If this is the response, I think you may have missed my point.   

From how it appears from UK looking over to the US,  there is just a constant almost frontier-like obsession with freedom.   Where as in the UK and in Europe, it's something we have innately, and we never feel (apart from Brexit) like it's anyway going to be in danger.

In conclusion, if a country which is deemed to be the "land of the free", is constantly struggling with the concept, is it the land of the free?  or the land of perpetual struggle for freedom?.   Freedom just feels a great deal more simple, and granted this side of the water. 

7 hours ago, rcarlson said:

I'd be shocked if you guys adhered to speed limits without the risk of getting caught and fined. 

To follow this train of thought, are you suggesting there shouldn't be restrictions?  I don't want to get you wrong, but that's what i'm getting from this.   I.e. you feel as if self regulated control of your own driving skill should be the governing factor, of how fast you want to drive?.    Again, I don't want to get you wrong, but this is what you're saying. Then is there any restrictions or laws you want? or would you prefer it if, there were no laws, and you police your own world?  I'm not trying to be melodramatic or hyperbolic, I just don't understand what the end point is, how you personally govern people that don't share your values, if there isn't general rule of law?

I guess what I'm getting at is,  there are rules out there which I don't necessarily agree with, but I accept that some sort of governance is needed,  so that things don't just fall to shit.  It would be great if we could trust each other not to litter, not loose control of our car at high speed, not to steal from each other, but sadly is seems countries like the UK, and the US are a great deal less effective in creating a culture of co-operation and trust, than say one like Japan. 

I remember once working on a very isolated base years back, and brilliant manager I had said,   "the standard you're willing to walk past, is your standard! the one you're will to accept".  i.e. it doesn't matter if you feel someone else has left a beer can spilt on the floor.  Pick it up, sort out the mess, and deal with the culprit later.  Sure enough this created a self governing small community, we all kept the base ship shape, and everyones personal standards of cleanliness, professionalism, and kindness was exemplary. 

If we opt out of living as a community, treat the world like our own personal toilet of trash and bad behaviour,  there is only one way, and thats down.      Whereas if we take some personal responsibility, express good manners, pick up our own crap, want to think that stranger is a good person and not welcome them with contempt,  the standard may start to rise. Communities start to self govern, not by there isn't a police force,   just that the police are not required every other second. 

 

6 hours ago, Markspring1978 said:

This is why we, Americans, aren’t part of the British Empire today. We are obsessed with freedom, and that, I would humbly submit is a good thing. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it from afar, but it what we choose to be. 

Again my point is the UK, France, Spain etc,   we all have freedom, we all like it, and it rarely ever feels in danger.    Freedom is just not a word we here in general conversation very much over here, not because we don't have it,   but that we do.   (the brexit spat aside)

I guess my point is.    If America is the land of the free, why does the freedom that you all demand, always seem to be never be fully satisfied?   Don't get me wrong, we in the UK are pissed off about all sorts of stuff, but not freedom

 

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

Even more so, if it aids in preventing another full lock-down

Fully agree with this.  A mask should be a symbol of liberty. i.e  "I'm going back to work, and whats more, I'm going to prevent a second wave"  

[Markspring1978]

12 minutes ago, 99call said:

Again my point is the UK, France, Spain etc,   we all have freedom, we all like it, and it rarely ever feels in danger.

I think we have very different fundamental definitions of freedom. For example, here is the definition of use of force in the UK, posted on their website:

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

The fact that a person cannot do whatever is needed to defend their life and property illustrates that the very understanding and basic premise of liberty is misunderstood. The Tony Martin case immediately comes to mind. 

I love you Brits, and I have great memories spending time in your land, but again, I would be miserable in the conditions imposed on freedom that you chaps endure. 

[rcarlson]

On 7/4/2020 at 11:27 AM, 99call said:

If this is the response, I think you may have missed my point.   

From how it appears from UK looking over to the US,  there is just a constant almost frontier-like obsession with freedom.   Where as in the UK and in Europe, it's something we have innately, and we never feel (apart from Brexit) like it's anyway going to be in danger.

In conclusion, if a country which is deemed to be the "land of the free", is constantly struggling with the concept, is it the land of the free?  or the land of perpetual struggle for freedom?.   Freedom just feels a great deal more simple, and granted this side of the water. 

To follow this train of thought, are you suggesting there shouldn't be restrictions?  I don't want to get you wrong, but that's what i'm getting from this.   I.e. you feel as if self regulated control of your own driving skill should be the governing factor, of how fast you want to drive?.    Again, I don't want to get you wrong, but this is what you're saying. Then is there any restrictions or laws you want? or would you prefer it if, there were no laws, and you police your own world?  I'm not trying to be melodramatic or hyperbolic, I just don't understand what the end point is, how you personally govern people that don't share your values, if there isn't general rule of law?

I guess what I'm getting at is,  there are rules out there which I don't necessarily agree with, but I accept that some sort of governance is needed,  so that things don't just fall to shit.  It would be great if we could trust each other not to litter, not loose control of our car at high speed, not to steal from each other, but sadly is seems countries like the UK, and the US are a great deal less effective in creating a culture of co-operation and trust, than say one like Japan. 

I remember once working on a very isolated base years back, and brilliant manager I had said,   "the standard you're willing to walk past, is your standard! the one you're will to accept".  i.e. it doesn't matter if you feel someone else has left a beer can spilt on the floor.  Pick it up, sort out the mess, and deal with the culprit later.  Sure enough this created a self governing small community, we all kept the base ship shape, and everyones personal standards of cleanliness, professionalism, and kindness was exemplary. 

If we opt out of living as a community, treat the world like our own personal toilet of trash and bad behaviour,  there is only one way, and thats down.      Whereas if we take some personal responsibility, express good manners, pick up our own crap, want to think that stranger is a good person and not welcome them with contempt,  the standard may start to rise. Communities start to self govern, not by there isn't a police force,   just that the police are not required every other second. 

99Call, thanks for the clarification.  I did get your first point and I think Piggy's was lost.  My response is the same.

As to the second point, "no," I'm not in favor of "no restrictions,"  reductio ad absurdum. I am trying harmonize my response to Piggy's which you were too, at least initially. 

So there's no mistake, I am all in favor of polite, civil behavior, although I can certainly be accused of the opposite from time to time, and have no expectation that you or most others are any different.   

In my home state, mask wearing is encouraged but not mandatory.  However, I've observed that the vast majority comply.  I've also observed near-violent reactions from others to those that don't comply which I find equally repulsive.  

As an aside, federally mandated interstate highway speed limits in the US were originally enacted for energy consumption during the mid-80s gas crisis.  It was its effect on commerce not safety that lead to increase the limits in many states.  The opposition to increased limits pointed to safety, whereas the proponents pointed to their effect on the economy.  Much like masks and other Covid restrictions, our health, safety and welfare laws are generally delegated to the states rather than the federal government.     

[99call]

2 minutes ago, Markspring1978 said:

I think we have very different fundamental definitions of freedom. For example, here is the definition of use of force in the UK, posted on their website:

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

The fact that a person cannot do whatever is needed to defend their life and property illustrates that the very understanding and basic premise of liberty is misunderstood. The Tony Martin case immediately comes to mind. 

I love you Brits, and I have great memories spending time in your land, but again, I would be miserable in the conditions imposed on freedom that you chaps endure. 

To me this isn't freedom, we from the UK feel immeasurably more safe and free not having lethal weapons in every home,  but thats just the difference between the two countries, and thats ok. 

I think this is just the case though, most developed countries feel as if their country is the best in the world. and couldn't imagine having to live elsewhere

[rcarlson]

20 minutes ago, 99call said:

Again my point is the UK, France, Spain etc,   we all have freedom, we all like it, and it rarely ever feels in danger.    Freedom is just not a word we here in general conversation very much over here, not because we don't have it,   but that we do.   (the brexit spat aside)

I guess my point is.    If America is the land of the free, why does the freedom that you all demand, always seem to be never be fully satisfied?   Don't get me wrong, we in the UK are pissed off about all sorts of stuff, but not freedom

As I recall, the UK was among the most resistant and last to join the EU, and here we have Brexit years later.  

In any event, our history is not the same as yours.  Not only are our freedoms inherent, they are not ones that are to "be fully satisfied."  I think we view the infringement of them as something to be guarded against.  It's in our DNA.        

[99call]

By the way, I just want to wish all US members a very happy 4th of July.   I know I'm very rarely on the same hymn sheet as you politically,  but I'm hoping you're all having a great day

[rcarlson]

1 minute ago, 99call said:

To me this isn't freedom, we from the UK feel immeasurably more safe and free not having lethal weapons in every home,  but thats just the difference between the two countries, and thats ok. 

I think this is just the case though, most developed countries feel as if their country is the best in the world. and couldn't imagine having to live elsewhere

I think your views of the US from what you read/hear/observe may be skewed.  We are a massive, multicultural country, hardly uniform in its sensibilities.  In any event, we certainly don't have a shortage of those that wish to come to the US nor many that want to leave.   

[99call]

2 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

As I recall, the UK was among the most resistant and last to join the EU, and here we have Brexit years later. 

Brexit is a long story, but largely its UK fat cats, pissed off that EU fat cats are getting their cream.  Their message is "don't let these rotten EU bureaucrats tell you what you can and cant do......thats our job!"

5 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I think we view the infringement of them as something to be guarded against.  It's in our DNA.    

My point is, i enjoy my freedom, as I don't have to perpetually worry and obsess about it.    I'm not necessarily saying you guys have got it wrong, but it just doesn't seem to bring much joy. it always seems to be contention and upset.

[dominattorney]

On 7/3/2020 at 7:53 AM, BrightonCorgi said:

That's what I am afraid of.  This ploy has to end.  We need to take stand.  We need a clear line of when masks and social distancing is no longer required.  This is hardly our first pandemic and won't be the last one.  I am not going to wear a mask or social distance indefinitely.   I am no way going to be micro-chipped either.

They don't need to microchip you. They can already track you on mobile phone. I understand this is already being done in Albuquerque. 

[rcarlson]

1 minute ago, 99call said:

Brexit is a long story, but largely its UK fat cats, pissed off that EU fat cats are getting their cream.  Their message is "don't let these rotten EU bureaucrats tell you what you can and cant do......thats our job!"

My point is, i enjoy my freedom, as I don't have to perpetually worry and obsess about it.    I'm not necessarily saying you guys have got it wrong, but it just doesn't seem to bring much joy. it always seems to be contention and upset.

To which I renew my original comment, "thank God."  

I do see that the UK has considerable angst over Brexit and immigration policies.  From a distance I'm not seeing much joy of late.    

[dominattorney]

11 minutes ago, 99call said:

By the way, I just want to wish all US members a very happy 4th of July.   I know I'm very rarely on the same hymn sheet as you politically,  but I'm hoping you're all having a great day

Thanks brotha. When you smoke a cigar with someone it's pretty easy to see that politics is but a thin veneer. I have argued in favor of communism with a tea party type guy over an h uppman no 2 and we walked away no worse for it. 

[99call]

3 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

In any event, we certainly don't have a shortage of those that wish to come to the US nor many that want to leave.

No definitely not implying that whatsoever, more just an observation, that there are many countries that have freedom, but none seem to have a similar constant churning of contention with it like the US.     Being from the UK it's just always very perplexing following American affairs, as the message often seems to be like freedom is this flickering dying flame, that if it goes out in the States....then all hope is lost.       And we feel like we're quietly in the background going   "ermm? we have it too"

5 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

To which I renew my original comment, "thank God."  

I do see that the UK has considerable angst over Brexit and immigration policies.  From a distance I'm not seeing much joy of late. 

There's lots of hate bater's trying to set fires in the Brexit mess, but peoples wealth and happiness has much more likely been stolen by a man in a tie, than an immigrant.

Again, I think the "thank God" comment is poorly placed.  For as must as I detest the current Tory government, I would must rather them than what I see on the other side of the water. 

But thats ok, Im not sure we'll agree.  

[bpm32]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

By the way, I just want to wish all US members a very happy 4th of July.   I know I'm very rarely on the same hymn sheet as you politically,  but I'm hoping you're all having a great day

Damn dude, all this lecturing about our supposed failures is why we left in the first place. 

[dominattorney]

19 hours ago, PigFish said:

Being a believer in freedom, i am enjoying the display of prejudice openly displayed on this forum. We might as well get it into the open "if you don't think like xxx, you are an idiot!"

For me, thinking (you are superior) is a given right. That is largely what I see here. Since I belong to a community (FoH) I do try, for the sake of courtesy, to control the urge to say it when I am thinking it. It certainly is not courtesy given some others on this thread!

In the world of humans, there are none that call themselves idiots... There are no bad drivers... Prejudice describes the other 'guy.' Yet the Gaussian view of every aspect of humanity proves differently.

For those of you who are believing that this is a small thing to do to protect others, I salute you. That is called common courtesy. However thinking that as you move through the universe  (rhetorically) that your existence and actions have no other effects on others, you are fooling no one, it just depends on how deeply you look for your own wake.

Why not then totally protect society from you causing infection? What I see; as long as it is convenient for you, you will be courteous to society. This is the same position of the others not doing what you are doing. Frankly, you are not better! I see people, both sides of any line drawn, drawing the line where they want it, based on their convenience, and saying this is 'my' position.

You ever fart in public? Sweat in public??? Itch yourself in public...? Send your sick kids to school? Go to work sick... Go to the market sick? Not wash your hands? Piss on the toilet seat and leave it for the next person...?

Stop the spread means total isolation.

Want to take yourself out the spread picture....? Stay at home. That way you are sure! If you are not willing to really do what it takes to remove all risk of intermingling, you are really no different than anyone else. Look in the mirror, pat yourself on the back if you wish... you are really no better, or worse than anyone else. It just depends on where you draw that line.

The virus travels freely, based on pore size, right through your mask. That is a fact!

Mask wearing, not wearing.... it is pretty clear. It is just another means to have the mob hate a minority group. This is just another way to hate another group and have the mob back you up. While you cannot (socially acceptably) hate someone from wearing a different skin color, it is wholly acceptable to hate someone for not wearing a mask... Who are you fooling? No one... not really!

You know, I don't see hate for those wearing masks... Yet I see lots of hatred pointed towards those that don't. What does that say about people? You can stew on that one.

Me, well, understanding individualism and group-think and I see that group-think is far easer to follow than understanding and respecting individualism. I prefer to live in a society of individuals responsible (largely) for themselves. Individuals understanding and respecting other individuals. If you want to wear a mask, I don't hate or condemn you. I feel the same about those that don't.

I think group-think, the mob hating the minority... that is what is what is dangerous to society. Frankly you have the ability, individually, to control the hate, to understand that people are different from you. You have the ability to separate yourself from others if you don't like them or what they are doing. Yet you would actually prefer to control the other man (or woman) in the room than inconvenience yourself. That illustrates your own bigotry! That is what is really at play here. You don't want to see those different from you, I will say it for you, inferior to you... Rather than leaving the room yourself, an individual controlling his/her own destiny, you would choose to make others conform to you, because you are obviously superior to them!!!

That my friends is bigoted thinking. 

Wear your mask, don't wear it. I don't give a shit! I don't hate either side, but it is fun to see those claiming understanding and acceptance, inclusion, display the hate for those that don't do what they want them to do!!! A lot of the pot calling the kettle black here... Just look behind the mask!

Cheers, and by all means, carry on!!! - the Pig

 

I can't appropriately type a response on my phone. I agree with this wholeheartedly. 

[rcarlson]

42 minutes ago, 99call said:

Again, I think the "thank God" comment is poorly placed.  For as must as I detest the current Tory government, I would must rather them than what I see on the other side of the water. 

But thats ok, Im not sure we'll agree.  

There are many here that might prefer the Tory government too.  

Kidding.  You'd be hard pressed to find an American that has any interest in UK politics.  Quite obviously the opposite is not true.  Hell, I'd wager that if you asked the man on the street here, 99 out of 100 would think Tory was a brand of lawnmower.   

You can rest assured we'll not agree.  Thank God!  ?    

[Bords]

Yeah we have our freedom here in the US but with freedom comes responsibility to do the right thing for the greater good. Like poorly parented children, part of our country is showing they don’t possess the emotional intelligence to handle the freedom. Also the weird anti-science thing going on is like a regression of the collective IQ. One example is the people insisting that the virus is too small for masks to be effective, but it is widely known that the virus is contained in droplets that ARE caught by a mask. The whole anti mask thing is a mirror to the anti vax mindset which is also anti science.

USA looking bad on so many fronts these days, hoping some lasting good change comes out of this shit show.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[99call]

6 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

There are many here that might prefer the Tory government too.  

Kidding.  You'd be hard pressed to find an American that has any interest in UK politics.  Quite obviously the opposite is not true.  Hell, I'd wager that if you asked the man on the street here, 99 out of 100 would think Tory was a brand of lawnmower.   

You can rest assured we'll not agree.  Thank God!  ?    

Haha wow. Never has being disinterested in the rest of the planet you live on, been offered up with such pride. Yep you thank the Lord. I'm sure your returns will be well invested

[rcarlson]

2 minutes ago, 99call said:

Haha wow. Never has being disinterested in the rest of the planet you live on, been offered up with such pride. Yep you thank the Lord. I'm sure your returns will be well invested

You've misread my tone.  I was trying to be lighthearted.    

[99call]

Just now, rcarlson said:

You've misread my tone.  I was trying to be lighthearted.    

How very dare you

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, dominattorney said:

They don't need to microchip you. They can already track you on mobile phone. I understand this is already being done in Albuquerque. 

So you fine with a chip being implanted into you?  Since they are tracking you already, right? 

[PigFish]

Ahhh... Outside, maskless, enjoying unbigoted freedom!

[Capt. Corona]

1 minute ago, PigFish said:

Ahhh... Outside, maskless, enjoying unbigoted freedom!

And shortening your life expectancy by retrohaling.  ?

 

Happy Independence Day  all.  Enjoy our freedoms, family and friends.  Stay safe and healthy!

[99call]

25 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Ahhh... Outside, maskless, enjoying unbigoted freedom!

Glass coffee cup Ray!? The only thing missing is some king size rolling papers. Always knew you were just a big hippy.  Happy Independence day you cranky old dog.   Enjoy