Ranking the markets: Something seems askew.

[Corylax18]

20 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Large population and the most tourists per year on the list.

OK. But china has over 1.3 BILLION people, very low tobacco taxes, and plenty of tourists. If you add the total French population and yearly tourism numbers from 2016 you still only get about 120 million total people, less than 10% as many. The tourists and citizens of France would have to be buying 10 times the cigar per person just to break even. I understand that the income levels of the two groups are, hard to compare, but there HAS to be something else going on. 

Where is this Coprova sending all their cigars? 

[joeypots]

Markets vs where the cigar is smoked would be interesting. How many cigars ultimately get to the USA and from where could skew the #s.

[SCgarman]

13 hours ago, El Presidente said:

30%  is happening now 

Absolutely! 

[BrightonCorgi]

56 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

OK. But china has over 1.3 BILLION people, very low tobacco taxes, and plenty of tourists. If you add the total French population and yearly tourism numbers from 2016 you still only get about 120 million total people, less than 10% as many. The tourists and citizens of France would have to be buying 10 times the cigar per person just to break even. I understand that the income levels of the two groups are, hard to compare, but there HAS to be something else going on. 

Where is this Coprova sending all their cigars? 

How mature is the cigar smoking culture in mainland China?  They have a lot of catching up to do.  Eventually China should be No. 1, especially with tobacco laws world wide.

[...]

2 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

OK. But china has over 1.3 BILLION people, very low tobacco taxes, and plenty of tourists. If you add the total French population and yearly tourism numbers from 2016 you still only get about 120 million total people, less than 10% as many. The tourists and citizens of France would have to be buying 10 times the cigar per person just to break even. I understand that the income levels of the two groups are, hard to compare, but there HAS to be something else going on. 

Where is this Coprova sending all their cigars? 

Tourists are not all equal...

backpackers don’t buy the same amount of Cohibas as retired and wealthy European boutique hotel/fancy restaurants consumers...

[Fugu]

Tourists? Now, this is funny, at least as far as France is concerned. That, and the original questions - "How is France the second largest habanos market in the world? What is the dynamics that created such demand" - are entirely ignorant of the fact that, historically it has always been, and to this day still is one of the strongest CC markets. "Created demand", "dynamics", seriously??! Really a strange perspective to take up when looking at France, which has ever been the biggest overall cigar market (all cigars) in the world behind the USA (with Germany and UK clocking in at +/- 3rd and fourth for decades, while Spain had always been strong for Cuban cigars, for quite obvious hist. reasons).

Apart from the economic/legal bonding, and an at times love-hate relationship with Cuba and Cubatabaco (and having saved the Cuban cigar industry from collapsing during the crisis), Spain and France are the countries with the longest cigar tradition. Both holding a strong cigar heritage and tobacco culture in their home countries (as @JohnS already alluded to). Cigars are actually being "smoked" there. Granted, you may look far and wide for a "cigar poser's" habit there...

The third, China, ok, file that under nouveau-riche. They don't have a cigar tradition (Hong Kong falls under PCC-distribution in this stat, so left unconsidered here) and still, only a small fraction of the population in mainland China can afford to smoke cigars.

The fourth again, Germany, another country holding some of the strongest long-standing bonds to Havana. Behind Spain highly influential in the Cuban tobacco and cigar industry for centuries, and coming with a long-standing cigar smoking culture.

Cuba at fifth - showing that this list indeed is about value, not volume.

So, this list can really only come to the surprise of the uninitiated. The debate about the significance of France I really find amusing. Ever so slightly tinted perspective of this forum..... haha .

A real shame that our knowledgeable members @Smallclub and @laficion are so rarely be heard of lately.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

 

The third, China, ok, file that under nouveau-riche. They don't have a cigar tradition (Hong Kong falls under PCC-distribution in this stat, so left unconsidered here) and still, only a small fraction of the population in mainland China can afford to smoke cigars.

I miss Guy! I hope you are well my friend!

 

As for China,  a touch harsh .

Twice the number of millionaires as france.

Number two on the list of Billionaires behind the USA.

A smoking culture dating back to the 1500's

if you took into account the amount of backdoor Cuban cigars going into mainland China, it would come in at no 2 behind the USA.

Cigars have been produced in China for a long long time. Their domestic market  for cigars is considerable.Domestic cigars account for over 90% of consumption.

En fin. There is a mainland china cigar culture. It may be small in terms of % of population....but it is huge in terms of overall numbers and impact.

 

[MD Puffer]

24 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Cigars have been produced in China for a long long time.

You want to smoke another one of those ten minutes after your finish one.

[El Presidente]

 

Special assignment: making cigars for Chairman Mao

 

 

An elderly man, Mr. Guao Rong Fan now aged 82 recalls the time he was assigned to produce cigars for Mao Ze Dong.
His career began making cigars in the late 1950’s at a tobacco factory in Shi-In city. He developed superior skills at making hand-made cigars during this time. One day in autumn 1964, a Communist Party secretary from the factory ordered Mr. Guao Rong Fan and three co workers to pack up their personal belongings and go to Cheng Du city. Thus he had to leave his home and family unsure of what lay ahead. This would have been quite worrying as so many Chinese people were starving and living in terrible conditions.
The four selected workers arrived at the tobacco and drug department located in Cheng Du city. The old man recalls” at beginning we didn’t know what they wanted us to do, then we found out it was to make cigars for General He. We stayed in Cheng Du city for about 4 months, working 8 hours a day, and everybody must produce 100 to 200 cigars per day.”
Not long after they returned to their homes, they were sent back to the Chen Du city factory, this time put to work to make cigars for Chairman Mao Ze Dong.
Mr. Guao Rong Fan gave a detailed insight of the cigar making process. “The techniques required to hand-make cigars are very high. First of all we need to select the best quality tobacco leaves, process them roughly, remove the stems, and then steam the leaves in Vietnamese cinnamon and the top quality of Chinese rice wine, to increase moisture, followed by bleaching with the best jasmine tea. The procedures varied according to different desired flavour. After the cooking, baking and drying process in the sun, the leaves are rolled and finally dried in an oven, there were 10 cigars packaged in each box and then be taken by special delivery to Beijing.”
The old man further explained more requirements in the making of a top quality cigar. Not only was the flavour to be good, but also the ash had to be of a high standard. Snowy white and able to hold a complete shape when the ash falls to the ground, make the optimum cigar.
The security involved for leaders of the Central Committee (the CCP) of the Chinese government is very high. The room where the work was carried out was like a fortress. Steel wire bars around the walls. The finished products were locked up in a large cast iron chest. All the doors and windows were sealed. Thus preventing anyone tampering with the goods.
Even with these tight security measures a huge “breach” was created. Mr. Guao Rong Fan recalls the time he returned from holidays. He took the seals off the door, entered the room and tried to grab the light switch cord, but it had disappeared. Immediately he reported the incident to the senior officials. The security bureau and the district military were called in to investigate. “Think about it, the seals, the doors are all well locked, how can the light switch cord have disappeared, what happened?” After a lot of drama, the security people climbed up to the roof, lifted the tiles and discovered the mice had taken the light switch cord to make a bed for themselves.
Such small mice could create such a security threat to the leaders of the country.
In 1971, Guao Rong Fan, Bing Fu Huang, Yue Rong Jiang were all moved to Beijing from Shi-In.  This cigar making group was called “Group 132” following the cigar no.13 and no.2 favoured by Mao Ze Dong and some officials. They were located in a building opposite Middle-South Ocean (Chong Nan Hai, the head quarters and residence for the high officials of the government.) Here the security was also very tight.  There were electrical wires all over the walls, soldiers guarded the doors.
“Our work was directly supervised by the Administration department of Central Committee; all the raw materials were still provided from Shi-In city. “.  Every month they had to produce 15 to 20 boxes of cigars.
After 1976, “group 132” ceased producing “especially made cigars” all of the three workers, including Mr. Guao Rong Fan became employees of the Beijing Cigarettes Factory.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Ever so slightly tinted perspective of this forum..... haha .

 

the forum has been accused of being anti US, anti islamic, anti Asian (those damn nouveau-riche Chinese!) and now anti France/EU.

......I think that means the balance is about right 

[Corylax18]

58 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

Special assignment: making cigars for Chairman Mao

 

 

An elderly man, Mr. Guao Rong Fan now aged 82 recalls the time he was assigned to produce cigars for Mao Ze Dong.
His career began making cigars in the late 1950’s at a tobacco factory in Shi-In city. He developed superior skills at making hand-made cigars during this time. One day in autumn 1964, a Communist Party secretary from the factory ordered Mr. Guao Rong Fan and three co workers to pack up their personal belongings and go to Cheng Du city. Thus he had to leave his home and family unsure of what lay ahead. This would have been quite worrying as so many Chinese people were starving and living in terrible conditions.
The four selected workers arrived at the tobacco and drug department located in Cheng Du city. The old man recalls” at beginning we didn’t know what they wanted us to do, then we found out it was to make cigars for General He. We stayed in Cheng Du city for about 4 months, working 8 hours a day, and everybody must produce 100 to 200 cigars per day.”
Not long after they returned to their homes, they were sent back to the Chen Du city factory, this time put to work to make cigars for Chairman Mao Ze Dong.
Mr. Guao Rong Fan gave a detailed insight of the cigar making process. “The techniques required to hand-make cigars are very high. First of all we need to select the best quality tobacco leaves, process them roughly, remove the stems, and then steam the leaves in Vietnamese cinnamon and the top quality of Chinese rice wine, to increase moisture, followed by bleaching with the best jasmine tea. The procedures varied according to different desired flavour. After the cooking, baking and drying process in the sun, the leaves are rolled and finally dried in an oven, there were 10 cigars packaged in each box and then be taken by special delivery to Beijing.”
The old man further explained more requirements in the making of a top quality cigar. Not only was the flavour to be good, but also the ash had to be of a high standard. Snowy white and able to hold a complete shape when the ash falls to the ground, make the optimum cigar.
The security involved for leaders of the Central Committee (the CCP) of the Chinese government is very high. The room where the work was carried out was like a fortress. Steel wire bars around the walls. The finished products were locked up in a large cast iron chest. All the doors and windows were sealed. Thus preventing anyone tampering with the goods.
Even with these tight security measures a huge “breach” was created. Mr. Guao Rong Fan recalls the time he returned from holidays. He took the seals off the door, entered the room and tried to grab the light switch cord, but it had disappeared. Immediately he reported the incident to the senior officials. The security bureau and the district military were called in to investigate. “Think about it, the seals, the doors are all well locked, how can the light switch cord have disappeared, what happened?” After a lot of drama, the security people climbed up to the roof, lifted the tiles and discovered the mice had taken the light switch cord to make a bed for themselves.
Such small mice could create such a security threat to the leaders of the country.
In 1971, Guao Rong Fan, Bing Fu Huang, Yue Rong Jiang were all moved to Beijing from Shi-In.  This cigar making group was called “Group 132” following the cigar no.13 and no.2 favoured by Mao Ze Dong and some officials. They were located in a building opposite Middle-South Ocean (Chong Nan Hai, the head quarters and residence for the high officials of the government.) Here the security was also very tight.  There were electrical wires all over the walls, soldiers guarded the doors.
“Our work was directly supervised by the Administration department of Central Committee; all the raw materials were still provided from Shi-In city. “.  Every month they had to produce 15 to 20 boxes of cigars.
After 1976, “group 132” ceased producing “especially made cigars” all of the three workers, including Mr. Guao Rong Fan became employees of the Beijing Cigarettes Factory.

Fascinating. I had no idea. 

[Corylax18]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Tourists? Now, this is funny, at least as far as France is concerned. That, and the original questions - "How is France the second largest habanos market in the world? What is the dynamics that created such demand" - are entirely ignorant of the fact that, historically it has always been, and to this day still is one of the strongest CC markets. "Created demand", "dynamics", seriously??! Really a strange perspective to take up when looking at France, which has ever been the biggest overall cigar market (all cigars) in the world behind the USA (with Germany and UK clocking in at +/- 3rd and fourth for decades, while Spain had always been strong for Cuban cigars, for quite obvious hist. reasons).

Apart from the economic/legal bonding, and an at times love-hate relationship with Cuba and Cubatabaco (and having saved the Cuban cigar industry from collapsing during the crisis), Spain and France are the countries with the longest cigar tradition. Both holding a strong cigar heritage and tobacco culture in their home countries (as @JohnS already alluded to). Cigars are actually being "smoked" there. Granted, you may look far and wide for a "cigar poser's" habit there...

The third, China, ok, file that under nouveau-riche. They don't have a cigar tradition (Hong Kong falls under PCC-distribution in this stat, so left unconsidered here) and still, only a small fraction of the population in mainland China can afford to smoke cigars.

The fourth again, Germany, another country holding some of the strongest long-standing bonds to Havana. Behind Spain highly influential in the Cuban tobacco and cigar industry for centuries, and coming with a long-standing cigar smoking culture.

Cuba at fifth - showing that this list indeed is about value, not volume.

So, this list can really only come to the surprise of the uninitiated. The debate about the significance of France I really find amusing. Ever so slightly tinted perspective of this forum..... haha .

A real shame that our knowledgeable members @Smallclub and @laficion are so rarely be heard of lately.

I understand its a very samll percentage of Chinese citizens, but that small pecent has a ravenous appetite. Ive never seen two bus loads of french businessmen offload in front of a LCDH, clear out every single Cohiba, to the tune of $15 or $20k, then struggle to pack the bags on top of the bags from the last LCDH. Access to CCs is probably much better in Frnace than China, but the buying power of the market is tremendous. 

[mt1]

I think the average French person buys more cigars than the average Chinese person.  There is a lot of tourists to France but I've never really seen too many tourists stroll into cigar shops in Paris just to buy cigars.  Yes, there are the occasional tourists who arrive and buy a ton of stuff, but for the most part, it is local French people buying a few singles for a night out at the shop.

The other thing to remember is that France has cigars everywhere.  I mean, every little convenience store + "tabac" will sell a decent Habanos selection of the usual suspects.  On top of this, there are the specialty cigar shops, but Cuban cigars are generally available wherever cigarettes are available in France (and that's a lot of places).

The cigar culture is undeniably existent in France, but it is very quickly growing in China as well.  I think China will eventually overtake to become #1 just by sheer population.  I don't think you can say that China is too poor as a generalization to afford cigars, because China is already the #1 market for many other things just by sheer population, for example, luxury vehicles.

Then again, it depends what the metric is.  I don't know exactly what the "biggest" market is being calculated on.  In any case, this is just what I've observed.  France is very much a market for consumption by the average Joe, whereas China is still a market where cigars are seen as gift items for the most part or a status symbol.  I don't know what China's tobacco tax is, but official Habanos sold in China are very very expensive and even the local Chinese cigars are not cheap--it is a premium product after all.  I would say cigarettes are cheaper in China than most other places, but when you take into account cigar lounge / bar pricing, Habanos in China are much more expensive than in Europe.

[El Presidente]

25 minutes ago, mt1 said:

  I don't know what China's tobacco tax is, but official Habanos sold in China are very very expensive and even the local Chinese cigars are not cheap--it is a premium product after all.  I would say cigarettes are cheaper in China than most other places, but when you take into account cigar lounge / bar pricing, Habanos in China are much more expensive than in Europe.

CIgars are expensive and the range available is strictly controlled by the Govt tobacco monopoly.  

Thankfully, China has porous borders where container loads of Habanos cigars pour in. It is a very professional operation that has been going on for at least 15 years that I know of.  The volume entering in this manner vastly outnumbered the quantities via official channels (that was the case 5 years ago and given they are all still in business, I don't see any reason to think the cigar market has changed).  This secondary market is no secret. There is barely any downside for anyone bar the Monopoly. 

China would certainly be number 2 behind the USA in terms of $ value. I would be surprised if it wasn't there based on volume but I could be wrong. 

It has always intrigued that the other market of immense hope (for HSA) was India. It never fired for a variety of reasons. A discussion for another day. 

 

 

 

[mt1]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

CIgars are expensive and the range available is strictly controlled by the Govt tobacco monopoly.  

Thankfully, China has porous borders where container loads of Habanos cigars pour in. It is a very professional operation that has been going on for at least 15 years that I know of.  The volume entering in this manner vastly outnumbered the quantities via official channels (that was the case 5 years ago and given they are all still in business, I don't see any reason to think the cigar market has changed).  This secondary market is no secret. There is barely any downside for anyone bar the Monopoly. 

China would certainly be number 2 behind the USA in terms of $ value. I would be surprised if it wasn't there based on volume but I could be wrong. 

It has always intrigued that the other market of immense hope (for HSA) was India. It never fired for a variety of reasons. A discussion for another day. 

No doubt about that grey market, hell I would venture to say China invented the grey market as we know it today.  I just didn't think it was right to say Chinese people are numerous but cannot afford cigars (not that you said that).  Sadly, China in my experience is also plagued with fakes (like a lot of places)...so many Behikes in China ?

[cigcars]

   *I would have thought the prime Havana cigar consumption/purchase countries would be (in this order):  1. Spain  2. Switzerland  3. Germany  4. China - and THEN France or some such.  Oh yeah, and then WE in the States would fall somewhere wavering in-between one or more of those countries...but there are no real statistics - are there?  

[Ryan]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's Chinese buyers making the French and Spanish markets look so good.

I go to Spain regularly and I just don't see Spanish people smoking premium cigars in any real numbers. I go sit outside bars and restaurants in the evening and I look around. I don't see it. I honestly see more people smoking cigars here and the Irish market is tiny, with much worse weather for smoking outside. Spain has fairly strict indoor smoking laws too.

Bullfights were a very popular place to smoke cigars. There was even a section in that video Prez shared recently.

Smoking is still allowed in the stadiums but I rarely see anyone else smoking cigars in a stadium when I go. It's just me and the people I'm with. Most bullrings still have a decent cigar shop near them, so I know cigars are available locally.

Two things I have noticed. I drove around Andalucia last July looking for Cohiba Talismans. Cadiz, Seville, Jerez, Cordoba. I did the same thing about 4 years ago looking for Partagas Lusitanias Gran Reservas. Four Years ago I was told that there were groups of Italians flying in buying them all up. Last year with the Talismans, in a few shops I was told that it was the Chinese buying them up. In all, I found a couple of singles left.

The other thing is, for the last 2 years, Altadis/Imperial in Spain have been releasing packaging for the Chinese market, even though it can only be sold legally in Spain, not online. The packaging is to celebrate the Chinese New Year.

In 2017, there were Cohiba Magicos "Año del perro" (year of the dog) sold in packaging of 2 layers 8 + 8.

and Cohiba Secretos"Año del perro" (year of the dog) sold in packaging of 3 layers 8 + 8 + 8

Last year, 2018 it was Cohiba Robustos 8+8 Año del Cerdo (year of the pig)

and Cohiba Siglo IV Año del Cerdo 8 +8 

Regular cigars, repackaged with a Chinese motif and sold in layers of 8 at up to a 50% markup. A quick google will bring up pictures. They're not on CubanCigarWebsite as they are packaging for a local market.

But they're not making these for Spanish people.

I'm not in France much but I'm in and out of Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris, 6-10 times per year. It was always a safe bet that they would have the most recent regionals in stock. I've been in an out of there 6 times since September and there have been none, even though there have been two regional releases in France in that time. They're being snatched up.

One might think that tourists couldn't be having that kind of impact. I know in this country tourists account for close to 50% of primary channel (shops not hotels etc.) premium cigar sales.

Then look at spending by Chinese tourists internationally over the last 10 years. From $36 bn to $250 bn. With billions of that being spent in France and Spain.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249702/international-tourism-expenditure-of-chinese-tourists/

A high-end department store here hired 50 Mandarin-speaking staff a couple of years ago in a forward thinking move.

I'm not complaining, at all. Best of luck to France and Spain (and by extension Ireland, now there are recently-launched bottles of Irish whiskey being sold for 10,000 euro and not to people with Irish surnames) and best of luck to the Chinese buyers. 

While of course, officially, these cigars are still being sold in France and Spain, I think this could be skewing the rankings somewhat. I presume when a recession comes to China, Habanos won't be throwing their hands up in the air saying, "What happened to our French and Spanish figures?"

[gojira]

5 hours ago, Ryan said:

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's Chinese buyers making the French and Spanish markets look so good.

I go to Spain regularly and I just don't see Spanish people smoking premium cigars in any real numbers. I go sit outside bars and restaurants in the evening and I look around. I don't see it. I honestly see more people smoking cigars here and the Irish market is tiny, with much worse weather for smoking outside. Spain has fairly strict indoor smoking laws too.

Bullfights were a very popular place to smoke cigars. There was even a section in that video Prez shared recently.

Smoking is still allowed in the stadiums but I rarely see anyone else smoking cigars in a stadium when I go. It's just me and the people I'm with. Most bullrings still have a decent cigar shop near them, so I know cigars are available locally.

Two things I have noticed. I drove around Andalucia last July looking for Cohiba Talismans. Cadiz, Seville, Jerez, Cordoba. I did the same thing about 4 years ago looking for Partagas Lusitanias Gran Reservas. Four Years ago I was told that there were groups of Italians flying in buying them all up. Last year with the Talismans, in a few shops I was told that it was the Chinese buying them up. In all, I found a couple of singles left.

The other thing is, for the last 2 years, Altadis/Imperial in Spain have been releasing packaging for the Chinese market, even though it can only be sold legally in Spain, not online. The packaging is to celebrate the Chinese New Year.

In 2017, there were Cohiba Magicos "Año del perro" (year of the dog) sold in packaging of 2 layers 8 + 8.

and Cohiba Secretos"Año del perro" (year of the dog) sold in packaging of 3 layers 8 + 8 + 8

Last year, 2018 it was Cohiba Robustos 8+8 Año del Cerdo (year of the pig)

and Cohiba Siglo IV Año del Cerdo 8 +8 

Regular cigars, repackaged with a Chinese motif and sold in layers of 8 at up to a 50% markup. A quick google will bring up pictures. They're not on CubanCigarWebsite as they are packaging for a local market.

But they're not making these for Spanish people.

I'm not in France much but I'm in and out of Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris, 6-10 times per year. It was always a safe bet that they would have the most recent regionals in stock. I've been in an out of there 6 times since September and there have been none, even though there have been two regional releases in France in that time. They're being snatched up.

One might think that tourists couldn't be having that kind of impact. I know in this country tourists account for close to 50% of primary channel (shops not hotels etc.) premium cigar sales.

Then look at spending by Chinese tourists internationally over the last 10 years. From $36 bn to $250 bn. With billions of that being spent in France and Spain.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249702/international-tourism-expenditure-of-chinese-tourists/

A high-end department store here hired 50 Mandarin-speaking staff a couple of years ago in a forward thinking move.

I'm not complaining, at all. Best of luck to France and Spain (and by extension Ireland, now there are recently-launched bottles of Irish whiskey being sold for 10,000 euro and not to people with Irish surnames) and best of luck to the Chinese buyers. 

While of course, officially, these cigars are still being sold in France and Spain, I think this could be skewing the rankings somewhat. I presume when a recession comes to China, Habanos won't be throwing their hands up in the air saying, "What happened to our French and Spanish figures?"

Yes, the last time I flew out of CDG I had a chat with the guy at the duty free and he told me that they were fed up with Chinese guys buying all the REs and Cohibas. They had started hiding them and he opened a closet where they stocked them and let me buy a couple of boxes.

[PigFish]

19 hours ago, El Presidente said:

the forum has been accused of being anti US, anti islamic, anti Asian (those damn nouveau-riche Chinese!) and now anti France/EU.

......I think that means the balance is about right 

Not balanced... too damn many Ozbournes! -LOL

Again, not wanting to switch gears, this forum ebbs and flows and it depends on when you stop in. Frankly I can see understanding anyone make those claims depending on who is currently posting actively on the forum. From time to time, there's a streak of anti- somebody running through the joint.

I have to wonder, with not posting much lately, and the current peaceful nature of the place, is there a correlation??? -LOL

-the Pig

[Fugu]

- @Rob: "accusing", "anti-EU" - seriously, man?

[Fugu]

The fact that there is the leaf being rolled and consumed also in mainland China doesn't make it a country with a 'cigar culture' yet. There are quite a few smaller countries in Southeast Asia with a way more pronounced, long-standing cigar tradition. But that's just not the point.

The point here is, folks are obviously perceiving what appears to them as being a sudden "dynamic", a somehow "new demand" in the French market. Likewise they are wondering as to why China might be coming in ('only') on rank three, behind the 'smallish' French market. That's simply missing historical facts and data.

Suggesting that the latter is due to mainland China lacking a cigar culture (such as France or Spain,... or even Denmark...), despite its huge population, sparking excitement leaves me befuddled. If they had they clearly were No.1 by far. And in turn - indeed - because of that huge population, a relatively small but in absolute numbers large group of wealthy people is driving China to rank three by now. So, I am a bit lost as to which part of this might be difficult to get?

@Corylax18 Chinese people clearing the shelves in Europe (not just France) of Cohiba, Monte (specials) and double-banders is just a very recent phenomenon. It sure may have an effect on overall sales, not dismissing that. But France has always been in top rankings for decades, without the kind "assistance" of China. Therefore - France in top ranking is anything but new. That's the only point I am making. There is no necessity in the reasoning to construct any 'wondrous' effects at work here. The surprise expressed here and by the bloke cited by Rob in his starting post comes completely unfounded.

A further point to consider: The Chinese tourists are only buying what is highly prestigious (to them. Or what they are being instructed via skype would be...) and what's in high demand already anyway. Them snagging up Siglo6es, Espies & Co is not altering the figure for those vitolas in their respective European markets to any greater extent. Because were it not for the tourists, those cigars had been sold anyway. I once had to learn it the hard way myself, with a group of young Chinese folk just being quicker than me. But hadn't they bought it, I had done it - so, selling anyway. In my opinion, this "Chinese driving the European market" thingy in this thread is highly skewed.

Would they start buying Sancho Panza, develop a sudden hunger for RGPCs, or would distributors suddenly struggle to keep up with their supply of D4s or perhaps JL2 and Monte1, now that would be another story.... Currently Chinese ex-patria demand might boost turnover, it may put pressure on local availability or even bump returns for certain novel shiny specials aimed at that group of buyers. But at the end of the day, there is only so much 'Coheeba' that can be sold.

[Fugu]

9 hours ago, gojira said:

Yes, the last time I flew out of CDG I had a chat with the guy at the duty free and he told me that they were fed up with Chinese guys buying all the REs and Cohibas. They had started hiding them and he opened a closet where they stocked them and let me buy a couple of boxes.

Yup - that's the very effect I am talking about. They're making their sales anyway. Not dependent on Chinese tourists. B&Ms start doing the same, not wanting to risk losing their loyal customers.

[El Presidente]

Fugu, no one is attacking France! 

It was a question raised and a fair one. I stated early that I have no idea of the French cigar landscape. Nothing on this thread has added to this education barring the countries historic relevance. 

We all understand the historical significance of Spain, France, Germany and England in "Cigar Culture".  To this day they are still recognised bastions/strongholds. 

England once dominated cricket, industrial manufacturing was the domain of the west. Things change. In the world of cuban cigars today there are two massive whirlpools sucking in global Habanos supply. Neither of them are in Europe.  That doesn't mean that they are not being fed by global retailers and distributors. In part they they have to be. I have no problem with that. The China numbers certainly don't take into account the Chinese grey market nor what Chinese citizens are purchasing globally (direct and online).  

Let's put it this way, no one is taking more  premium Cuban cigars than the USA and China.  We can agree to disagree. 

Not too long ago, Guatemala may have cracked the top 10. 

It's all good mate 

 

[gojira]

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

Yup - that's the very effect I am talking about. They're making their sales anyway. Not dependent on Chinese tourists. B&Ms start doing the same, not wanting to risk losing their loyal customers.

Yes, more or less. The guy at the duty free told me that they were tired of having no "premium" cigars left on the shelves for other customers.

At my cigar store in Paris they don't care. They get in hundreds of boxes of each new French RE and they want to move them fast. Americans, Chinese or French. They had one Asian guy come in who purchased 50 boxes of the new QdO RE the other day. The good thing is that they will call you and put boxes on hold for you if they like you.

[garbandz]

Look at the impact China has had on French wines.

Number one market globally.

Driving the prices.

Anyone doubt they could do the same with cigars?

The desire to own what is perceived as the best is driving this trend,without regard for the actual experience of enjoying the product.

A cellar full of Bordeaux is a nice thought, a warehouse full is beyond what any person could possibly consume.

One upsmanship at its highest level.