Pure B***shit: Novak Djokovic granted medical exemption to play at Australian Open

[Ken Gargett]

48 minutes ago, Zaphod42 said:

Check the age and obesity levels of those people. You’ll find a common thread. I didn’t say a vaccine was useless; but if you’ve already caught it and gotten over it, there’s little reason to subject yourself to a vaccine or discriminate against people.

sure, although that is the first time you've raised it. previously you have taken the all-in approach. but to say older and obese people have more health issues in respect of this or almost any other medical issue is, as basil fawlty might say, 'your topic, the bleeding obvious'. that said, the latest figures from the states, as far as i could find, suggests that deaths for under 60 is around 400,000 or pushing that. hard to find anything exact. others may have more luck. hardly insignificant. 

but even the article you used to support your argument, although it does the exact opposite, suggests that the science - and we are following the science, aren't we - has a period of 12 months for natural immunity. so i would suggest that if you have not had the virus for 12 months - even if you have but leave that for a moment - there is every reason. but i fully realise that there are plenty of people out there who believe that they know more than science or that they are bulletproof or simply don't care. 

and that brings us to one other point we have not touched on - i realise that today's society operates on very much a 'me and only me' basis but i take it that you have no issues with passing the virus on to others? no concerns as to the health of others? perhaps you don't know any older or fatter people because surely it can't be that you don't care?

[dominattorney]

3 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

sure, although that is the first time you've raised it. previously you have taken the all-in approach. but to say older and obese people have more health issues in respect of this or almost any other medical issue is, as basil fawlty might say, 'your topic, the bleeding obvious'. that said, the latest figures from the states, as far as i could find, suggests that deaths for under 60 is around 400,000 or pushing that. hard to find anything exact. others may have more luck. hardly insignificant. 

but even the article you used to support your argument, although it does the exact opposite, suggests that the science - and we are following the science, aren't we - has a period of 12 months for natural immunity. so i would suggest that if you have not had the virus for 12 months - even if you have but leave that for a moment - there is every reason. but i fully realise that there are plenty of people out there who believe that they know more than science or that they are bulletproof or simply don't care. 

and that brings us to one other point we have not touched on - i realise that today's society operates on very much a 'me and only me' basis but i take it that you have no issues with passing the virus on to others? no concerns as to the health of others? perhaps you don't know any older or fatter people because surely it can't be that you don't care?

That's the trouble with science, though, and a reductionist attempt at tarrying with it in civil debate to support your point. Science doesn't pretend to know everything right away. When the consensus changes, people fall victim to logical fallacies, as illustrated above, and look for security in absolutes. Science will never provide us with absolutes. 

When all else fails, they will move the goalposts.

Step three is taking the ball and going home. 

I agree with the substance of your argument wholeheartedly, which I suspect does not need to be said, but just so the record is clear, there it is. 

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

That's the trouble with science, though, and a reductionist attempt at tarrying with it in civil debate to support your point. Science doesn't pretend to know everything right away. When the consensus changes, people fall victim to logical fallacies, as illustrated above, and look for security in absolutes. Science will never provide us with absolutes. 

When all else fails, they will move the goalposts.

Step three is taking the ball and going home. 

I agree with the substance of your argument wholeheartedly, which I suspect does not need to be said, but just so the record is clear, there it is. 

in full agreement that science does evolve - hopefully that is clear from earlier posts - and that if one does purport to follow the science then one's views should as well. often science has differing views and it can take some time for any form of consensus to emerge. i am not talking the 'i stood in the rain so i am a climatologist' fruitbats but genuine and creditable scientists. the moving the goalposts is a concept perhaps better addressed another time. but agreed, the mob that seem to work on the principle that scientists once decreed that the earth was flat so they are not allowed to change their views are simply a waste of time. 

[MrBirdman]

51 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

in full agreement that science does evolve - hopefully that is clear from earlier posts - and that if one does purport to follow the science then one's views should as well. often science has differing views and it can take some time for any form of consensus to emerge. i am not talking the 'i stood in the rain so i am a climatologist' fruitbats but genuine and creditable scientists. the moving the goalposts is a concept perhaps better addressed another time. but agreed, the mob that seem to work on the principle that scientists once decreed that the earth was flat so they are not allowed to change their views are simply a waste of time. 

I think this vaccine resistance has much less to do with science than it does ideological outlook. That’s why they’re mostly impervious to logic or actually science-based refutation of their views. 

This is about mistrust for elites. For some people (definitely not all), vaccine resistance is little more than a way to “own the libs.” 

Unfortunately instant access to information and communication with the world has precipitated a societal form of Paranoid Personality Disorder through confirmation bias. It happens on the left too, in different ways. 

[Namisgr11]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:55 PM, Zaphod42 said:

The best defense against a virus is to get it and recover. Correct. Nothing about that is complicated. It’s what we all agreed on prior to 2020. And then insanity took over.

There's plenty of evidence that this isn't true.  While both natural immunity (i.e., an infection) and vaccination offer partial protection against both re-infection and contracting severe disease, the combination of the two is now considered to offer stronger protection than prior infection alone.  

Beyond this, it's also the case that the original virus strain has evolved to the point where neither prior infection nor vaccination against it is especially effective against strains that first arose in 2022 and are now the dominant ones in circulation.  But since vaccination can be tailored to strains that become dominant over time, it can provide additional protection against severe disease that neither a prior infection nor vaccination from 2020-2021 provide.  If someone insists on going the 'natural' route and get all of their immunity from being infected, they're going to have to face the fact that this will mean getting infected, probably sick, and possibly seriously ill over and over and over again through the years.  This is hardly surprising, given what's been learned from decades of experience with influenza and viral pneumonia.

Following the science includes taking in and incorporating all of the knowledge accumulating over the years since this infectious disease first took hold and scientists had far, far less to go on.

[BrightonCorgi]

13 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

I think this vaccine resistance has much less to do with science than it does ideological outlook. That’s why they’re mostly impervious to logic or actually science-based refutation of their views. 

This is about mistrust for elites. For some people (definitely not all), vaccine resistance is little more than a way to “own the libs.” 

Unfortunately instant access to information and communication with the world has precipitated a societal form of Paranoid Personality Disorder through confirmation bias. It happens on the left too, in different ways. 

Vaccines take a decades to understand the long term effects.  Can you tell me the 5 or 10 year side effects for Covid vaccines?  You cannot.  No one can. 

Then, when the vaccines did not prevent sickness or spread; the definition of vaccine had to change.  The unvaccinated needed to be distinguished & separated as the vaccinated did not want to get sick.  The whole point of the vaccine was to prevent the spread and sickness.    

Polio, Measles and the like vaccines have been around decades.  Plenty of people are skipping Covid vaccines yet get flu shots and other tried & tested vaccines.

[MrBirdman]

26 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Vaccines take a decades to understand the long term effects.  Can you tell me the 5 or 10 year side effects for Covid vaccines?  You cannot.  No one can. 

In the history of vaccines, side effects always manifest within two to three months, not years down the road. Do you think they waited 5-10 years to see if people’s faces melted off randomly one day before recommending kids get polio vaccines? They did not. 

Quit acting like the government shoved the vaccines down the throat of an unwilling public. I lost family members to Covid. Maybe if you had you’d have been a little more eager to get vaccinated rather than worry about your head exploding in 10 years from a vaccines after you’ve been vaccinated against things all your life. 

[BrightonCorgi]

31 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Quit acting like the government shoved the vaccines down the throat of an unwilling public. I lost family members to Covid. Maybe if you had you’d have been a little more eager to get vaccinated rather than worry about your head exploding in 10 years from a vaccines after you’ve been vaccinated against things all your life. 

So, are you implying I haven't lost a family members to Covid?  Does that make me special if I have?  Does it give me anything additional when I provide obituaries of family & friends?  Are you in check with everyone's vaccination status?

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Vaccines take a decades to understand the long term effects.  Can you tell me the 5 or 10 year side effects for Covid vaccines?  You cannot.  No one can. 

Then, when the vaccines did not prevent sickness or spread; the definition of vaccine had to change.  The unvaccinated needed to be distinguished & separated as the vaccinated did not want to get sick.  The whole point of the vaccine was to prevent the spread and sickness.    

Polio, Measles and the like vaccines have been around decades.  Plenty of people are skipping Covid vaccines yet get flu shots and other tried & tested vaccines.

And can you prove it didn't prevent the spread?  "You cannot.  No one can. " It spread for sure, but who knows what the outcome would have been without the vaccine.

Did we have 5 to 10 years to wait out pandemics?  No

Your arguments are greatly flawed.  Lets just sit back and wait 5-10 years each time something new comes up?  Give me a break.   Technology exist now to fast track vaccines that didn't exist even 10 years ago.

And for those who get the flu but not the covid, that is also flawed.  92.2% of people who regular get the flu shot got the covid shot.  That leaves just over 7% who did not.

[BrightonCorgi]

28 minutes ago, Monterey said:

And can you prove it didn't prevent the spread?  "You cannot.  No one can. " It spread for sure, but who knows what the outcome would have been without the vaccine.

There are studies that show little difference in spread between unvaccinated and vaccinated.  Look at highly controlled environments in government where everyone has to be vaccinated and everyone are tested weekly.  They still got Covid, and more than once.  How could that be if 100% are vaccinated?

If they most isolated, controlled, and tested groups still contract Covid.  What hope do regular people have to avoid getting and spreading Covid; vaccinated or not? 

It was clear pretty early on into mass vaccination that current Covid vaccines were not as promised.  There will be better Covid vaccines and therapeutics in future years. 

Is it safer for a person to have Covid and be vaccinated, or not have Covid and not be vaccinated?  In Australia they picked the former in relation to Novak.

[MrBirdman]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

So, are you implying I haven't lost a family members to Covid?  Does that make me special if I have?  Does it give me anything additional when I provide obituaries of family & friends?  Are you in check with everyone's vaccination status?

That was not a fair accusation on my part, and I apologize if you've lost people to COVID. But it makes me upset to see people spread doubt about the vaccines when they could have saved the lives of two people I loved dearly had they been released earlier.

The vaccines have saved lives. Very few people have had serious side effects. It's a good tradeoff, and suggesting we just sit around for 5 to 10 years waiting to see if people have random side effects (which has never been documented in vaccines before) makes zero sense. In the past, even where there were long term consequences, like guillain barre syndrome, they began to manifest within 2-3 months. Your fear is understandable, but not realistic, and I have no idea why you cling to it so closely unless it is about something other than science. The science is clear. 

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

If they most isolated, controlled, and tested groups still contract Covid.  What hope do regular people have to avoid getting and spreading Covid; vaccinated or not? 

The whole point is that the vaccines make it less likely for you to DIE when you get sick. Yes, the CDC initially believed that they would be effective at preventing infection too - but as the virus mutated and antigens dropped off faster than expected, they stopped making those claims. And no vaccine in history has 100% protection from infection - nor did the CDC or doctors ever promise it. I can only infer that people believed that, because we don't see MMR anymore, a good vaccine is 100% effective. But, aside from the fact that MMR doesn't mutate nearly as fast as Covid, even those vaccines arent 100%. When outbreaks occur in the US some of the people infected were previously vaccinated. That's why heard immunity is important.

Further, even natural immunity fades over time, so the vaccines absolutely still have a role even for people who got sick at some point. The evidence of their protective effect is overwhelming. Hundreds of people are still dying every day in the US, and as of the most recent week of data the unvaccinated are dying at over FIVE TIMES the rate of people with the original vaccine, and TEN TIMES the rate of people who also have the bivalent booster. 

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

It was clear pretty early on into mass vaccination that current Covid vaccines were not as promised.  There will be better Covid vaccines and therapeutics in future years. 

By your logic we might never get vaccines because we would always need to wait 5-10 years, and there is always a better treatment on the horizon. 

[Monterey]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There are studies that show little difference in spread between unvaccinated and vaccinated.  Look at highly controlled environments in government where everyone has to be vaccinated and everyone are tested weekly.  They still got Covid, and more than once.  How could that be if 100% are vaccinated?

If they most isolated, controlled, and tested groups still contract Covid.  What hope do regular people have to avoid getting and spreading Covid; vaccinated or not? 

It was clear pretty early on into mass vaccination that current Covid vaccines were not as promised.  There will be better Covid vaccines and therapeutics in future years. 

Is it safer for a person to have Covid and be vaccinated, or not have Covid and not be vaccinated?  In Australia they picked the former in relation to Novak.

Every study is written by someone with an opinion.  Even the original guy resurfacing this thread.  He badly misquoted an article to meet his agenda.  He is clearly a far right person and he got this article from a far left publication.  If this same publication posted an article that was against his belief, would he have posted it here?  No.

Covid spread because of mutation.  You can have a group of fully vaccinated people still get a disease if the disease has mutated.  If every person got the vaccine and masked up, would this have quickly ended?  Who knows.  Your argument of "better vaccines in the future" is bizarre at best.  You will be saying the same thing 5 years from now, and 10 years, and 15 years . . ..  People like you love to play Monday morning quarterback.  Offering no solutions but pointless facts in the heat of the matter, then attacking any and all people who did what they could with the information they had at the time.

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

 Your argument of "better vaccines in the future" is bizarre at best.  You will be saying the same thing 5 years from now, and 10 years, and 15 years . . .. 

So innovation is dead?  Nothing new will ever progress from the date/time you say?  That is bizarre.  I could've sworn new medications are being trialed and brought to market all the time; for a myriad of ailments. Mercury use to be a popular medicine.  We innovated since then, no?

It's impossible to build on what we've learned so far with Covid therapies?

What else is it about "people like me"?  I think you got a list.

[Webbo]

In response to the OP I think (based on the actions of his POS father at this years tournament ) the science question we should be pondering is "arsehole Djokovic, natured or nurtured"?

[Monterey]

8 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

So innovation is dead?  Nothing new will ever progress from the date/time you say?  That is bizarre.  I could've sworn new medications are being trialed and brought to market all the time; for a myriad of ailments. Mercury use to be a popular medicine.  We innovated since then, no?

It's impossible to build on what we've learned so far with Covid therapies?

What else is it about "people like me"?  I think you got a list.

Innovation is dead.  Exactly what I said.  Geesh.  Along with your theory, you should also not buy a TV because a better TV will be available in 5 years.  Ditto for a car, laptop, and generally everything.  At some point in the 2342 innovation will no longer be necessary because we will have perfected everything.  You can go on  spending spree and finally get that perfect covid shot.

I'll just keep buying every 5 years as it will be the best available at the time.

[99call]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

In response to the OP I think (based on the actions of his POS father at this years tournament ) the science question we should be pondering is "arsehole Djokovic, natured or nurtured"?

Yep, the rotten apple doesn't fall far from the rotten tree.