Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Cigar Surgeon]

3 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

That’s simply not true and you know it. There is also natural immunity from infection, which in most people leads to minor symptoms if not asymptomatic.  It seems to be working well in places like Sweden currently.  That’s why the high risk should minimize their risk and the young and healthy should live life.

Uh .. no. This is why people are getting infected multiple times, because new variants come out and start the COVID party all over again. It's a constantly evolving virus.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210714/e2809cHerd-immunitye2809d-not-responsible-for-Swedene28099s-control-of-COVID-19-say-researchers.aspx

6 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Its also a great example of a false choice, a favorite tactic of the little authoritarians - take this medicine or we will lock you down, be afraid!  And make sure you watch the 24/7 propaganda on TV in case you start questioning the fear narrative. We can’t have people asking questions now.   

Your fear mongering about unvaxxed causing covid mutations here is without any evidence. There are also leaky vaccines that lead to new varieties. Similar to how anti biotic resistant bacteria developed. It could be natural evolution. Blaming mutations on “unvaccinated” is simply without real evidence - but it’s a good propaganda point!

If you don't believe COVID mutations are happening in unvaccinated populations, despite the mountain of available evidence for you to read, I'm certainly not going to be able to convince you. The same is true of 'leaky' vaccines. Breakthrough infections are extremely rare. 

8 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Of course you don’t see a problem with the name calling - you agree with them. 

That’s all I’ll have to say on this thread. 

I have a problem with name calling because it's unproductive and only creates a hostile, defensive environment. 

[Hammer Smokin']

1 minute ago, rjake100 said:

🎵Nothing left to do but smile smile smile🎵

Once and a while you get shown the light, 

In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

 

But when you are blind, it can be tough to see. 

 

[Nino]

Sweden ... the "role model country" that did it all wrong, according to the Lancet, the most prestigious medical publication :

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00885-0/fulltext

In December, 2020, we wrote about the Swedish response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

¹

Our hope was that our Comment, together with hundreds of other fact-based articles, would gain the attention of the Swedish Public Health Agency (Folkhälsomyndigheten [FHM]), that they would revisit and change the national strategy that they had designed so that it would be more aligned with global best practice, and that the political decision makers would act on it. They did not. Since then, the FHM has recorded more than 5600 deaths from COVID-19 in Sweden, and cases and deaths continue to rise as we face the third wave without any widespread sense of gravity or urgency.

The debate among critics of the Swedish national approach to the pandemic has been consistent since March, 2020: be strategic, test and trace more, follow the growing evidence base and recommend the use of face masks, and enforce regulations about physical distancing and ventilation, especially in schools if they are open. Some critics have advocated for more government-led legal interventions such as reinforcing quarantine or lockdown. It has been a call for timely implementation of basic principles of pandemic prevention and control to contain the spread and flatten the curves of hospitalisations, deaths, and chronic illness.

 

Instead of following evolving evidence, the FHM has doubled down and defended its approach without reconsidering the assumptions on which the failed national approach is based. It has downplayed the roles of asymptomatic spread, aerosol transmission, children as potential source of infection, and the use of face masks. It has maintained an approach that mainly builds on recommendations to take voluntary actions, guided (in our view) more by public opinion than by sound public health policy. The media has played a crucial role in this pandemic response, mostly lacking in investigative journalism and failing to question or hold the public health agency accountable, with some exceptions.

²

Dagens Nyheter, a major newspaper, recently exposed

³

Sweden's large inequities in COVID-19 deaths across income, education, and origin of birth—data that should have informed the national strategy from its inception.

As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden. The country has one of the highest infection rates in western Europe according to Our World in Data COVID-19 statistics, with 606 new infections per million per day, while its neighbours Denmark, Finland, and Norway reported 115, 62, and 112 new infections per million per day, respectively (April 15, 2021). New and more infective and deadly variants have taken over, and by April 15, 2021, the UK SARS-Cov-2 variant was supected to have caused 75–100% of all new cases in all regions. This indicates more rapid spread, more deaths, and that more young people will be affected, with intensive care units already at full capacity in some regions.

⁴

While other countries are closing down in response to this new surge in cases, Sweden is opening up—high schools were opened on April 1, 2021. To continue on the same trajectory in the face of current trends, without timely action by agency and government leadership, raises concerns about governance and accountability, and ultimately about fundamental ethics and values.

 

[Grateful13]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

None of it surprises me. These are the same conversations I've been having since February of 2020. Despite going on three live webshows and accurately predicting the infection numbers and deaths, people who refused to believe it never came around.

For the most part now I don't bother engaging because I don't believe people engaging in the discussion are interested in broadening their understanding, they're only interested in being right. 

Do you have any self awareness at all?  One sentence you tell us how right you are about everything, then in the very next sentence you say debate is pointless because people are "only interested in being right"

😭

Okay that's really it this time LOL

[Nino]

Hope it is ...

The view from this side of the pond - if you can find a vein get it in there ... love it.

NSFW in the other side of the prudish pond ... 🙂

 

[djrey]

57 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

yah, I was just referring to this thread. 

First 3 pages was adult. Last few pages have turned to what I expected. 

Because more people showed up that disagreed with you so you can’t over assert your opinions? 
 

Give me a break. It’s been nothing but different opinions this whole time. No name calling or anything uncalled for. Quit trying to stir the pot for no reason 

[therealrsr]

2 hours ago, Ciscojohansson said:

This sets a president. What will we do when the next disease comes? or the next problem that will end the world? Give up your freedoms and rights in the name of security and liberalism. Like Churchill said:The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists

I agree with almost everything you said there.  Every person should be allowed to choose their own course of action, including a business owner.  I think we are talking about two different things, i.e. gov't vs. a private business.  St. Louis recently mandated that I mask up to protect the unvaccinated who won't protect me by getting vaccinated.  Only time will tell what the better choice was.  But in the mean time, screw their mandate.

[Puros Y Vino]

1 minute ago, therealrsr said:

 St. Louis recently mandated that I mask up to protect the unvaccinated who won't protect me by getting vaccinated.  Only time will tell what the better choice was.  But in the mean time, screw their mandate.

I haven't seen this take before.  😮

[Chibearsv]

Pull my finger...😁

[Trapper99]

31 minutes ago, therealrsr said:

I think we are talking about two different things, i.e. gov't vs. a private business.  

The problem is the general messaging from .gov is we can't mandate vaccines, but (wink and a nod) all you business should. When business are doing something at the urging of the .gov, that's one in the same to me. 

I said earlier probably on page 4, from covid .gov has figured out they can privatize everything they want to do, but can't. That is a terrible precedent, imo.   

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

yah, I was just referring to this thread. 

First 3 pages was adult. Last few pages have turned to what I expected. 

Thn pull it around.  It is in your hands to do so. 

We play the ball and not the man. 

[HarveyBoulevard]

11 minutes ago, Trapper99 said:

The problem is the general messaging from .gov is we can't mandate vaccines, but (wink and a nod) all you business should. When business are doing something at the urging of the .gov, that's one in the same to me. 

I said earlier probably on page 4, from covid .gov has figured out they can privatize everything they want to do, but can't. That is a terrible precedent, imo.   

This may not be the case outside the US but it is certainly the case inside the US.  If there is no shield from litigation business will happily follow along with what the government wants.  I would wager there will be certain 'immunities' for business put in place by the government if the 'private' business mandates vaxxes.  FB and the like are already being 'told' what to take down regarding vax information (or misinformation depending on your camp).

Government has a way of coercing big business to get what they want so the link between between big government and big business is not a large as it may appear.

Small business is a bit of a different story.  Not much they can do to me but they can make Coke/FB/(insert big company here) do just about anything to keep the profits rolling.

The 'private business' differentiation from government is a purple herring...erh....green herring....or is it red herring...?

[HarveyBoulevard]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

Thn pull it around.  It is in your hands to do so. 

We play the ball and not the man. 

Hope floats?

Hope springs eternal?

...something like that

[El Presidente]

59 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

Hope floats?

Hope springs eternal?

...something like that

It is pretty easy. 

1. focus solely on the issues

2. ask questions

3. answer questions

4. raise connundrums. 

Be open to expanding ones own knowledge on the issue. 

 

There is nothing wrong with learning via debate. It is a lost art as can be seen on some ot the posts over the past three pages.  Once one involves personal slights, it is game over and only showcases the deliverer of those slights as one who is  immature and yet to learn how to engage in civil society. Those who retaliate are little better. Let's face it, there is a ton of immaturity in the world today championed (shamefully) by our political class and social media elite.

Let's get back to the first three pages. I have gained a lot from this thread. Trapper99 (for me) has articulated the AntiVaxx position on the issue intelligently, clearly.  It doesn't mean I agree with him but I will take it into consideration when weighing decisions for my staff and business.  I point T99 out not because he was the only one. There is a host of fantastic material but his position is one that I had not clearly understood previously. 

The art of learning.

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, Ciscojohansson said:

If the public sector demands the vaccine for travel etc depending on country and if the private sector demands it for work and patronizing, you cannot say the vaccine is not mandatory. To be able to function as before the pandemic you are forced to take the vaccine. The definition of the totalitarian state is that all of life becomes politics. This is just one step in that direction in what used to be the free west. Good or bad, that is a reality. Look at what you could say in comments 10-15 years ago, today you could be arrested in some countries for being rude in your internet comments.  

a century ago, the US supreme court supported mandatory vaccinations. zucht v king. every single state in the US has requirements for mandatory vaccinations for children (they differ from state to state and there are some states with certain exemptions). there are other mandatory vaccinations there. think military for an example. in the States, it first happened back in the 1850s to fight smallpox. 

in australia, we have rules which mean no welfare for those who won't vaccinate their children. this was pre covid and has huge support. 

countries all around the world have such regulations. given that this has been around for so long, perhaps you could detail which countries have tipped into totalitarianism thanks to those policies? or do you really think that providing similar policies for covid is actually the straw that break's the camel. 

[99call]

7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

benefit of others and the society in general

I find it so interesting to look at my childhood (born in 1980) and how seamless society felt......well.... accept for the tories ha!.     No seriously,  society was so much more homogenous, bonded and together.    We had old polish refugees from war torn Europe on our street. Indians, Nigerians, Pakistani's, West Indians from the Windrush era.  Everyone was fascinated with one another, everyone was living in each others pockets.  It was a great community where everyone looked out for one another. Yes, there was still racism, but people were a great deal more co-dependant,  bonded    

These days, we should be so much further on shouldn't we.!?.....and in some ways we are.  But I cant help but think society collapsed back into tribalism, and the same communities I grew up with now seem a great deal more segregated and insular.   I cant help but think the independence the internet has offered, had seen to people retreating from one another. 

Back on topic.   I think this retraction has really weakened and impoverished as sense of community, less so this side of the pond, but the 'army of one' mentality that seems to have taken hold, and this idea of "why the hell should I do something that doesn't benefit me & my family exclusively?" ............erm maybe because it feels good? 

I find it really depressing that there is a growing percentage of people out there, that approach life and modern society like some sort of dooms day prepping exercise.   i.e. if you are not a direct blood relation, or have a carbon copy belief system,.....then get the hell out of my concrete bunker. 

 

[CommanderJWBond]

Pres- I don’t buy any of the excuses or rationale for not getting a vaccine. I believe them to be based on lies and conspiracies.

But, my sister does, and she is scared, very scared, because she will soon be mandated by her employer to get it soon and thinks it may impact her future desire to have a family.

I think she is ridiculous, but her fear is not. It is genuine and palpable.

In a business like yours that I presume is not a large corporation, it may be worth affording employees like this an opportunity to voice their hesitations to you one on one. I am sure that my sister and her employer relationship will probably be ruined by this. That’s the other side of the coin when it comes to forcing employees to get it.

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, CommanderJWBond said:

I think she is ridiculous, but her fear is not. It is genuine and palpable.

That is the key point. 

She shouldn't be defined by her attitude to vaccines. You know her as a whole multifaceted person. You disagree on this issue. What are you going to do, yell at her and call her an idiot? Of course not. 

You talk it through. Provide the data. If she is on the right of the spectrum ( Bill Gates, 5G, Hellicopters & Tin hats)......you are still going to love her and she should know that.  

For the record I have a sibling who is much like your sister.   Love him but I am not responsible for his choices and I don't expend one iota of energy in worrying about them. 

[porkchop]

In this thread, individuals on the side of a mandate are wishing death upon unvaccinated individuals. 

Those in power can do what they want, the rest of us will react. For a business to mandate a COVID vaccine, considering all the available evidence, seems clumsy. If these mandates are simply theater with medical and religious exemptions as viable work arounds - while not an ideal scenario, some people have come to need the make believe. 

 

 

 

[Frozen North]

In a word…..Yes.

[Bords]

Can I just say I absolutely love the term “Yanks”. I am one and it is so appropriate to describe the “you can’t make me do anything” crowd in this country. Vaccines have the absolute most data backing up benefit to society. Number 2 health innovation only behind clean drinking water when it comes to lives saved.

Continued covid infection among the unvaxxed is creating lovely new variants, it’s just the way it works. If we end up with a variant that causes breakthrough infections, I wouldn’t be disclosing your brave resistance to vaccination, it will be on you and your unvaxxed “cult”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bijan]

11 hours ago, Trapper99 said:

It seems now the goal is zero deaths with covid. How come we don’t have the same goal and restrictions with the flu or common cold? Today I will likely do many things that have an associated death rate with it, but I do it anyway. It’s a complex, nuanced, risky world made up of 8 billion individuals, and for this reason, I don’t think mandates are generally good. I believe businesses can legally ( for employees, patrons is questionable), but shouldn’t (to answer the original question 😂)

I call this group of people: zero covid. I follow some of these types on twitter. I think there's even a Canadian group called zero covid canada. To me they're basically the pro-vaccination equivalent of anti-vax people. They want to shut down society and force everyone to get vaccines until covid is completely gone, no matter how few deaths and serious illnesses are involved, and keep moving the goalposts so it never ends.

[GolfT3]

As a manager I am responsible for the health and safety of my employees when they are at work. I’m also fortunate to have friends who are much smarter than I am. Doctors, nurses, a few PhD’s (including virology). They are much better equipped than I am to assess the current covid threat and the the data around vaccine efficacy and their opinions were identical - the evidence in favor of vaccination exponentially outweighs the evidence against.

Ergo, for us, if you want to come into the office you need to be vaccinated. If you don’t want the shot and have a job that can’t be done remotely it’s probably time to start considering a change.

No ones choices have been taken from anyone. You have no god given right to a job at my business.

[Hammer Smokin']

4 hours ago, djrey said:

Because more people showed up that disagreed with you so you can’t over assert your opinions? 
 

Give me a break. It’s been nothing but different opinions this whole time. No name calling or anything uncalled for. Quit trying to stir the pot for no reason 

the ratio of 2\3 to 1\3 has been present since the inception of the poll.

 

[LordAnubis]

I think the biggest problem in this whole debate is confusion. The vaccine is not a vaccine. Anything that provides "92%" effectiveness is not a vaccine. From what i understand the single greatest benefit of the vaccine is that it is supposed to reduce the severity of the virus should you happen to get it. Lets not call it a vaccine and call it the "First Treatment". 

My cousins wife in the space of a week lost her brother, father, fathers brother and fathers sister all to Covid. I can't help but think what the outcome would have been had any of them had the First Treatment.

We have had vaccine requirements for decades for travelling. I don't see why this should be any different. Ultimately the goal is not erradication, its not possible. The goal is to end up where Covid is like the flu. Everyone gets it, but only a very small percentage die from it, just like the Flu.

I'm all for private business mandating vaccine for employment.