Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It looks like whatever your feelings are on the matter, businesses are moving forward with the requirement and 'vaccine passports' have arrived.

 

We have that in Germany now for a couple of months and it gets tougher for the unvaccinated : testing that is free of charge now will have to be paid from Oct. 10-th onwards, so they will pretty much be squeezed if they want to take part in public life without a vaccine.

[porkchop]

2 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It looks like whatever your feelings are on the matter, businesses are moving forward with the requirement and 'vaccine passports' have arrived.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/us/new-orleans-vaccination-proof/index.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-vaccine-passport-1.6136031

New Orleans is vaccine or proof of a negative test - that is not the arrival of vaccine passports. It is literally in the first sentence of the article. Are you even trying to convey the truth at this point?

[Jimmy_jack]

17 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

 

Nurses, yes.

Doctors, very rare.

Doctors wont even go into the rooms. Dont know how many times my wife she has given report to a doctor about a patient, at the patents door. When she opens to door to go in...both of them to go in...the doctor stands there staring at her only to say "im not going in there." 

Repulsive

[Bijan]

42 minutes ago, porkchop said:

New Orleans is vaccine or proof of a negative test - that is not the arrival of vaccine passports. It is literally in the first sentence of the article. Are you even trying to convey the truth at this point?

That's pretty close if you have to have a negative test anytime you want to go to the gym or eat out, etc. Unless the venue tests you at the door that's a lot of trouble to go to.

[Cigar Surgeon]

49 minutes ago, porkchop said:

New Orleans is vaccine or proof of a negative test - that is not the arrival of vaccine passports. It is literally in the first sentence of the article. Are you even trying to convey the truth at this point?

Are you even looking to have a civil conversation in this thread or just fight with everyone you can?

At what, $79 a pop for each visit, requiring a negative COVID test for entry into bars, restaurants, breweries, gyms, fitness centers, sports complexes and stadiums, is a de facto vaccine passport.

[DanWil84]

We have that in Germany now for a couple of months and it gets tougher for the unvaccinated : testing that is free of charge now will have to be paid from Oct. 10-th onwards, so they will pretty much be squeezed if they want to take part in public life without a vaccine.

You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination. Don't know what the rules are now in Germany, but I'm also curious how this will be stretched to for example even shops, government buildings or going to work and how other countries are going to react on it. It is considered silly to make a analogy to a certain dark time in German history (not that the French don't have that dark time, same rules implied) and im not going to make it, but I'm still looking at this with the greatest of curiosity and hesitation.

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[Nino]

10 minutes ago, DanWil84 said:

You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination. Don't know what the rules are now in Germany, but I'm also curious how this will be stretched to for example even shops, government buildings or going to work and how other countries are going to react on it. It is considered silly to make a analogy to a certain dark time in German history (not that the French don't have that dark time, same rules implied) and im not going to make it, but I'm still looking at this with the greatest of curiosity and hesitation.

 

Yes, I cannot see why I should pay taxes to pay for testing of people that could have received a free Covid vaccine.

And while Germany is still a "Mother Theresa" country accomodating all and hurting noone, attitudes are changing and people have a choice next Sept. in general elections.

It will be stretched for sure to add Shops, Hospitals, elderly care homes etc., pretty soon it will be nationwide I guess and companies will be asking for it.

Yes, silly indeed and since I consider myself a Spaniard with a German passport I won't comment to that analogy - Groetjes 🙂

[BrightonCorgi]

49 minutes ago, DanWil84 said:

You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination.

It starts of as that and turns into "why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any ______."

 

[DanWil84]

It starts of as that and turns into "why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any ______."
 

Well that's quite ironic to say on a tobacco forum and the risks of smoking, but I get your point. This remark was only regarding this topic of which you could say it's a valid argument if there is a choice and a consequence of picking one. It would be quite a stretch to ask for a vaccination or negative test for just going shopping, but if I really didn't want the vaccine I would go test to go to a concert or going out dining. Yes that would cost me around 20 to 40 euros a test, but thats the consequence. There is a argument to make for why you would even consider that with a virus with a IFR of blablabla, but that's not the point, it will get shoved in your throat anyway. That's what we have live with, with people in power that do not care for your interest.

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[El Presidente]

Vaccine passport/proof of vaccine now required for internal flights into the state of West Australia. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Vaccine passport/proof of vaccine now required for internal flights into the state of West Australia. 

The same was just announced in Canada for all commercial air travelers, passengers on inter-provincial trains and passengers on large, marine vessels with overnight accommodations such as cruise ships. They also said a requirement for all Federal government employees to be vaccinated is coming soon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131

[Zigatoh]

The funny/counterintuitive thing is that the more you put off wearing masks or being vaccinated to preserve your freedoms, the more authoritarian things will become.

[Puros Y Vino]

3 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

The same was just announced in Canada for all commercial air travelers, passengers on inter-provincial trains and passengers on large, marine vessels with overnight accommodations such as cruise ships. They also said a requirement for all Federal government employees to be vaccinated is coming soon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131

So far. Ontario civil servants do not need vax to go to their workplace, nor can they be asked about their status.  🙄 Their privacy trumps everyone else's safety. 

[Meesterjojo]

4 hours ago, Jimmy_jack said:

Doctors wont even go into the rooms. Dont know how many times my wife she has given report to a doctor about a patient, at the patents door. When she opens to door to go in...both of them to go in...the doctor stands there staring at her only to say "im not going in there." 

Repulsive

One of our er doctors doesn't believe that covid is serious, masks, vaccines, etc. Despite seeing how we were through round 1. 

Since this physician also runs our er, no one gowns for patients there. Yes, people call us and complain frequently. 

 

On 8/13/2021 at 2:44 AM, Bords said:

That being said, we need to call a spade a spade. These "vaccines" aren't vaccines, just as [mention=15810]LordAnubis[/mention] said, they are temporary therapeutics that help you manage the disease. The modern drug companies wet dream, a constant and steady income flow for years. Government protections preventing generic versions, guaranteed payments from the taxpayer, hell we're even paying to market it to ourselves. If some one had written this as science fiction we wouldn't believe it.  
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pfizer+-+Kalamazoo/@42.2116813,-85.5616263,1481m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88179e8a4a6f93b3:0x2325084a527b0d2c!8m2!3d42.2132465!4d-85.5561375

Ah, the anti pharma angle how refreshing. Full disclosure, I”be been in pharma my whole career including a few years in vaccine marketing with a pharma giant.

First off, they are vaccines not therapies. Vaccines are never 100% effective at prevention so calling covid vaccines therapeutics is simply incorrect.

Secondly, vaccines have never been a big money maker for pharma after you factor in compassionate use in less developed areas. Therapeutics for chronic disease are the real cash cows.

Lastly, in defense of my industry, I love the fact that big bad pharma is still taking shit after two pharma companies basically saved the US from total collapse (with J&J in the mix and AZ helping worldwide). Remember the lockdowns and masking we all hated? Lifted due to the products created by pharma in record time. I haven’t heard any praise for the role pharma played in the partial return to normalcy. It’s not a perfect industry by a long shot but come on, at least don’t continue to bash the industry that allowed you to have some sort of return to life.

I really try to understand the anti vax viewpoint but as someone who respects data, it simply has no merit from a risk/benefit perspective.


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You're not serious, are you? You can't imagine why people bash on big pharm?

Lobbyists, promoting drugs which cause addiction and ruin lives, buying the rights to human cells and thus subsequent therapy, over pricing of medications such that people die needlessly each year...

I can't imagine why.

 

On 8/13/2021 at 4:55 AM, Jimmy_jack said:

Vaccinated or not, is not the issue. Proper PPE at this point is. I do not think an employer should have a right to demand an employee be vaccinated. The information is very clear.

VACCINATION DOES NOT MAKE YOU IMMUNE OR A NON-TRANSMITTER.

There are breakthrough cases right now that make that a clear and evident fact. THE VACCINE IS NOT THE ANSWER. (guess what...it isnt a vaccine. Its just makes it not so bad if you do get it)

Require masks if you want. As an employer I feel that is your right. However, you cannot tell a person what they must do to, or put into their bodies. There are few exceptions in my mind. 

My wife is a nurse at a local large hospital and has been dealing first hand with CV19 patients from the beginning. Sometimes exclusively on a 2/1 ratio. She was one of the first people at her hospital that was told 'you floor is all covid from this point on'. She has been bed side non stop for the entire length of this pandemic. Switching PPE each time between patients. Being told to clean and reuse ppe when they can.She has many stories that are heart breaking.

She has not contracted covid. This is not from being vaccinated. She only got the shots this march. She has been covid free because of wearing a mask and washing her hands (although I think the surface and hand stuff is theatre). That is it. Period end of story. 

I should ask her to come on here and make a post on her views if y'all would be interested. My whole family (wife, two teenage boys and myself) are vaccinated for a while now. She demands that we wear masks. Why???? Why would she do that...we are vaccinated. Because she knows that it is NOT the answer.

 

I'm not sure you understand how selection works. If you like I'll message you privately, or anyone else curious, and explain it.

Further, employers have the right to demand whatever they want, especially as it pertains to their businesses. If my employees that come into contact with my customers spread covid, you better believe there's going to be a lawsuit. And healthcare professionals like myself are already mobilizing to support those lawsuits and grind employers to the hilt. 

It's all fun and games when a business wants to make money off off population. But when they also infect and contribute to spreading a disease to the same people they prey off of, well, that's despicable. 

 

Reading backwards is just like reading through heart of darkness. It'd a hot mess.

At this point I do not understand why folks are confusing personal rights and freedom's with not wanting to harm your neighbors. 

You do not have the right to harm other people. That's is why you need to get vaccinated,  mask up, or leave society.

No one has the right to harm others. End of debate.

[Bijan]

7 minutes ago, Meesterjojo said:

Reading backyards is just like reading through heart of darkness. It'd a hot mess.

At this point indo not understand why folks are confusing personal rights and freedom's with not wanting to harm your neighbors. 

You do not have the right to harm other people. That's is why you need to get vaccinated,  mask up, or leave society.

No one has the right to harm others. End of debate.

This is their logic:

If vaccines work 100% then I don't need to Vax because the vaccinated are protected.

If vaccines don't work 100% then I don't need to Vax because no protection is the same as 90% protection plus "long term side effects". I use quotes because it seems rare for a 2x treatment to have long term side effects but no short term side effects. The AstraZeneca vaccine had blood clots in the short term. Most other medicines with long term side effects have those effects after repeated doses of the medication not 2 doses.

And I guess there's a feeling that the doing no harm to others rule only covers positive actions, negative actions are different because it forces you to do something. Personally being forbidden from doing something or forced to do something is a matter of perspective in many cases. In this case you are forbidden from entering a gym unless you are vaccinated is that the same as being forced to be vaccinated? Just the phrasing there is different.

[porkchop]

5 hours ago, Bijan said:

That's pretty close if you have to have a negative test anytime you want to go to the gym or eat out, etc. Unless the venue tests you at the door that's a lot of trouble to go to.

A bullet that is pretty close to hitting you in the head is a lot different than a bullet that hits you in the head. If the make believe has to continue for politicians to stay in power and corporate leaders to get rich(er), so be it. Plebs of either persuasion (mandate and no mandate) can play along, each in their own way. Personally, I am ok playing the game. It is childish, but whatever - the small pleasures will still be there. 

 

5 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Are you even looking to have a civil conversation in this thread or just fight with everyone you can?

At what, $79 a pop for each visit, requiring a negative COVID test for entry into bars, restaurants, breweries, gyms, fitness centers, sports complexes and stadiums, is a de facto vaccine passport.

Huh? Not sure if you are trolling - I had one other post in a ten page thread. You posted something that was wrong and got corrected. Happens to the best of us. 

[Bijan]

12 minutes ago, porkchop said:

A bullet that is pretty close to hitting you in the head is a lot different than a bullet that hits you in the head. If the make believe has to continue for politicians to stay in power and corporate leaders to get rich(er), so be it. Plebs of either persuasion (mandate and no mandate) can play along, each in their own way. Personally, I am ok playing the game. It is childish, but whatever - the small pleasures will still be there. 

In this case it's probably worse this way. If they made it mandatory then they'd likely add a religious/sincere belief exception.

But now that there's the test option it's harder to argue you're averse to covid tests. People go to the gym 3-4 times a week. I used to when I went. Getting covid tested multiple times in a week is pretty rough.

[HarveyBoulevard]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

This is their logic:

If vaccines work 100% then I don't need to Vax because the vaccinated are protected.

If vaccines don't work 100% then I don't need to Vax because no protection is the same as 90% protection plus "long term side effects".

 

Not quite.  I would submit it is a bit more complicated than that.  The world and humanity cannot survive if we just close up shop and telecommute for eternity.  Conversely, the world and humanity cannot survive (at least as we know it) if we do nothing and let Covid-19 (or the next one in line) ravage our population.  That means that somewhere in the middle is a solution.  Your middle is not my middle and our middles are not our neighbor's middles.  So, each person, group, country, etc must decide what we can do and how far we will go to get past this.

The world is not a utopia.  The greater good does not always win.  Some people expect others to take care of them, some people expect no one to help and then there are those people in the middle.  Different countries and the people that inhabit them are very different in their belief systems when it comes to personal freedoms and what they will sacrifice in order to keep those freedoms.

Those who are wary of the vaccines are wary of the government and how far they have encroached into our lives all in the name of 'safety' and 'public health' (also read as the greater good).  Some, including myself, wonder how much of our lives we are willing to cede to those in charge when those in charge will never give it back.  I've never seen a government hand freedoms back once they take them from you.

There is much much more to those everyone calls 'anti-vaxxers'.  It is not a conspiracy theory if it is true.  You are not paranoid if someone is actually following you.  Just because it is hard to believe does not make it a lie.

If you can't trust the government, and you can't trust the media, you must trust your friends and family and what you can determine for yourself.  That is not an easy thing to do with a novel coronavirus when no one knows what they are talking about...

Now, I believe in vaccines and I have taken the vaccine.  I have two young daughters and when a vaccine is available for them, I will have them vaccinated.  That is my choice based upon my beliefs.  It is not because you (the ubiquitous you) think I should and it is not because the government or an employer thinks I should.  I don't really care what any of those entities think.

When you are using your QR code and your travel passport 20 years from now wondering why you are still wearing a mask and being cattle prodded by your government, you may look back at the anti-vaxx crowd and think to yourself, "wow, I guess they weren't being paranoid after all."

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers."

-Louis Brandeis, 'Olmstead v. United States quotes., 277 U.S. 438 (1928)

[Bijan]

5 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

The world is not a utopia.  The greater good does not always win.  Some people expect others to take care of them, some people expect no one to help and then there are those people in the middle.  Different countries and the people that inhabit them are very different in their belief systems when it comes to personal freedoms and what they will sacrifice in order to keep those freedoms.

Yes I believe in this case there's a tradeoff between covid deaths and personal freedoms. Each country will go its own way. Being not quite so deadly but not quite so benign makes it very hard to know which way to lean. I am "pro" vaccine but my opinion is open up and let the unvaccinated suffer any consequences. Or alternatively mandate it with a religious/belief opt out. I think most people would get the vaccine in that case and maybe 10% would have serious reservations and opt out. I feel it best not to press the issue beyond that point.

It would be overreach to me to mandate it against sincerely held beliefs. Even though I think it harmless it's a precedent I wouldn't want set.

[dobbs]

30 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

I've never seen a government hand freedoms back once they take them from you.

well, you weren't there, but you know, that whole slavery thing in the united states, pretty good example of a return of freedoms.

and slippery-slope arguments are generally unreliable. we eat animals, but somehow haven't yet slid into cannibalism.

-dobbs

[HarveyBoulevard]

10 minutes ago, dobbs said:

well, you weren't there, but you know, that whole slavery thing in the united states, pretty good example of a return of freedoms.

and slippery-slope arguments are generally unreliable. we eat animals, but somehow haven't yet slid into cannibalism.

-dobbs

Neither one of those arguments are intellectually honest with regards to the current global public health epidemic.

We are in fact animals ourselves (just really smart ones) and your wrong about cannibalism...that is how we have a word for it...Some animals are herbivores, some are omnivores, some are carnivores.  I figure at some point we just figured out cows taste better than Uncle Bob.  Haven't you ever seen Soylent Green

Those that doubt the slippery slope usually end up at the bottom first.  They are easy to miss if your not looking out for them.

[teamrandr]

That will be enough internet for me today.  

[HarveyBoulevard]

2 minutes ago, teamrandr said:

That will be enough internet for me today.  

😂 i agree. I need a cigar and some mindless YouTube videos to round out the evening!!

[dobbs]

59 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

Neither one of those arguments are intellectually honest with regards to the current global public health epidemic.

the point was that your argument is hyperbolic and therefore not intellectually honest (thanks for the phrase). and i'm well aware that cannibalism existed/exists, don't you think it would be difficult to make an argument with a concept that doesn't?

-dobbs

[rcarlson]

Doesn't the question (as it's morphed through the thread) hinge on whether the vax prevents transmission?  There seems to be alot of certitude from people that don't really know.  I believe the studies so far more clearly establish whether the vax reduces severity of symptoms rather than whether they halt transmission. The rest is up in the air.  It may be that reduction of transmission is a side effect.  Hardly certain. 

If the vax isn’t shown to reduce transmission, all that follows falls prey to the usual passions and biases of any other polarizing political debate.  So we're back to the usual suspects that pervade every ethical/moral issue of bodily autonomy versus the greater good.     

In my view, it's always preferable to inform, encourage, sometimes to incentivize rather than belittle, discriminate, demonize, and forcibly interfere with any individual's autonomy through mandates and "jab for job" requirements.  But it depends on the real objective, which this thread amply demonstrates is no different than the ones from last year.     

It shouldn't come as any surprise that being told what is "good for you" by people that don't particularly like you or your beliefs will be resisted.  Just look at those that said they wouldn't take the vax if developed/promoted by one administration that now insist it should be mandated under another.  I'd like to believe that I'm above the idiot class of politicos pushing their agendas, but I'd be lying to myself if I did.  So would everyone else.