Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?


Vaccination in the work place.   

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It has been truly eye-opening for me to witness the discussion in this thread. It's one thing to read about the various rationales in support of or opposition to the individual choice or decision to vaccinate. It's another thing altogether to see it unfold in an actual person's words and line of reasoning. For sure, it's difficult trying to see common ground.

Edited by Ginseng
"choice" to "choice or decision" as these are two different concepts
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As a front line healthcare worker I'm absolutely sick and tired of people coming in with covid now.  We did it last year, and our hospital lost half its staff. Now we're understaffed like every h

No way should they have that right. People should not be forced to accept a medical procedure in order to work, especially not an experimental and potentially very dangerous one. And it is very much e

Exactly, it’s like the current hysteria with kids supposedly getting it in any serious numbers. Absolutely no scientific or statistical evidence behind it, pure fear propaganda. If you are vaccin

1 minute ago, CommanderJWBond said:


This would be true if governments mandated the vaccine, and that would not be good. But it in the context of private businesses it really doesn’t apply. Businesses are not mandated to hire or retain any of their employees at any time.

If the public sector demands the vaccine for travel etc depending on country and if the private sector demands it for work and patronizing, you cannot say the vaccine is not mandatory. To be able to function as before the pandemic you are forced to take the vaccine. The definition of the totalitarian state is that all of life becomes politics. This is just one step in that direction in what used to be the free west. Good or bad, that is a reality. Look at what you could say in comments 10-15 years ago, today you could be arrested in some countries for being rude in your internet comments.  

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8 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 

“Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.”

 

Thats a great way to put it. I am glad we agree mandates are terrible. After all, your liberty to swing your needle ends at my nose and skin. 

Is that what you’re trying to say? Or are you just saying it doesn’t apply when you are swinging or decide that you are right and that everyone else has to do what you think?

Or are you saying someone unvaxxed is putting you at risk? How so? Does the vaccine work or does it not?

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24 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 I think you just described the anti-mask/vax crowd with that bit. 🤔

  • Cult activity is putting on a red cap and following someone who had a chance to make it better but made it worse. 
  • A cult has to mandate anti-mask laws while their states are drowning in new COVID-19 cases.
  • A cult goes out to protest businesses trying to keep their staff and patrons safe.

This reads like an argument for being that guy in London who leaves his lights on during the air raids.  While a bomb may not hit his house, his neighbors who did their part, pay the price.  But hey, it's his right to read at night right?

 

 

This logic is reversible.  

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6 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

It has been truly eye-opening for me to witness the discussion in this thread. It's one thing to read about the various rationales in support of or opposition to the individual choice to vaccinate. It's another thing altogether to see it unfold in an actual person's words and line of reasoning. For sure, it's difficult trying to see common ground.

You put your finger on the main thing. The common ground is hard to see and to be honest I think it is going. We live in the afterglow of Christianity, when the glow dies out there will be no great idea or thought that holds us together.

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This would be true if governments mandated the vaccine, and that would not be good. But it in the context of private businesses it really doesn’t apply. Businesses are not mandated to hire or retain any of their employees at any time.
And in the mean time government has a big say in what businesses can or can't do. There is nothing like "private" anymore. Looking at the companies that decided to make getting vaccinated a demand for even keeping your job there neck deep into what government wants from them and needs them for.

My country says it won't, but when covid hit they also said they wanted to spread the virus for herd immunity. In the meantime we had 3 waves, lockdowns, curfew, masks, testing before visiting a concert (they gave 1 billion dollars to 1 company to organize this, smells baaaaaad) and what not. Vaccins being pushed. If there something I don't like its stuff getting stuffed in my throat not being able to spit it out, just swallow it and attaboy! I got the vaccin with the greatest of hesitation, but also thought about the consequences of not getting it and it just outweight it a tiny bit on the scale vs being able to control what I put in my body out of free choice.

Funny thing is especially American companies go far with their demands. Alphabet/Google has a big data centre here in the Netherlands. They demand A fully vaccination B a test 72 hours prior to the visit C a test before entering the building. So if they have a large scale problem they want to solve they will have to wait 5 days before a engineer can show up as no company will ask all their service ppl to do the above mentioned.

Its bonkers. Having policy not trusting a vaccin which is greatly pushed means it just doesn't work.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn VOG-L29 met Tapatalk

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Just now, Puros Y Vino said:

It actually means that what you think is your "freedom" actually does harm to your neighbour.  So being the guy who doesnt turns off his lights when the bombers are coming, or doesn't take a shot or even put on a damn mask because "my rights".  There are consequences to your actions and in-actions whether or not you choose to recognize them.  The guy whose house got hit, lost his wife and kids might just remember you were the dick with your lights on and may be heading over to your house with a crowbar for a discussion.  Sure, that's a bit dramatic but we are talking life and death.  Even though COVID may not affect you, you can sure carry it. And if you have a cavalier attitude towards your fellow citizen along the lines of IDGAF then you're not fit to live in society. 

Again, your comparison is totally legit, true, and doesn’t make you sound absolutely insane at all. 🙄

How is someone who is not vaxxed a risk to vaccinated people if the vaccine works?  Why won’t you address that?  Why are Iceland and Israel having huge surges despite near universal vaccination? Why do we need booster shots?  Why are all the goal posts shifting?

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

 

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25 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Your hate and intolerance are duly noted. 

 

1 minute ago, Grateful13 said:

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

 

QFI

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13 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

I see the yanks have taken over the discussion.

Yank this!!  😁

It's not just them. The same rhetoric is also growing on our side of the border.  Anti maskers/vaxxers are getting in people's faces on patios while people are trying to enjoy businesses reopening.  They want "rights" respected but only theirs. 

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1 minute ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Yank this!!  😁

It's not just them. The same rhetoric is also growing on our side of the border.  Anti maskers/vaxxers are getting in people's faces on patios while people are trying to enjoy businesses reopening.  They want "rights" respected but only theirs. 

yah, I was just referring to this thread. 

First 3 pages was adult. Last few pages have turned to what I expected. 

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5 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 And yes, "booster" shots may be needed.  Why is this happening?  Simple math.  The numbers to reach herd immunity are not there because too many people have chosen to politicize a Pandemic vs giving a damn about doing their part and helping their fellow neighbour.  The surges are easy to explain. Too many selfish idiots not doing even their slightest part to help their fellow citizens get over it.  The longer this lingers on, the more complex and tough the virus becomes, the more booster shots or updated vaccines will be needed.  Or perhaps the holdouts will get Darwin'd out?  Time shall tell.

I just read a BBC report today that "herd immunity" will not be reached due to the Delta variant....

The more idiots the more variants the more ....

Hope Saint Darwin helps out.

 

5 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

It seems to be working well in places like Sweden currently.  That’s why the high risk should minimize their risk and the young and healthy should live life.

That’s all I’ll have to say on this thread. 

You just declared yourself to be totally falsely informed by using Sweden as a model.

Just shows a BIG Atlantic cultural & information divide, no problem.

Gives me the perfect excuse to put you on my ignore list 🙂

Cheers

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1 minute ago, rjake100 said:

🎵Nothing left to do but smile smile smile🎵

Once and a while you get shown the light, 

In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

 

But when you are blind, it can be tough to see. 

 

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Sweden ... the "role model country" that did it all wrong, according to the Lancet, the most prestigious medical publication :

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00885-0/fulltext

In December, 2020, we wrote about the Swedish response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
1

Our hope was that our Comment, together with hundreds of other fact-based articles, would gain the attention of the Swedish Public Health Agency (Folkhälsomyndigheten [FHM]), that they would revisit and change the national strategy that they had designed so that it would be more aligned with global best practice, and that the political decision makers would act on it. They did not. Since then, the FHM has recorded more than 5600 deaths from COVID-19 in Sweden, and cases and deaths continue to rise as we face the third wave without any widespread sense of gravity or urgency.

The debate among critics of the Swedish national approach to the pandemic has been consistent since March, 2020: be strategic, test and trace more, follow the growing evidence base and recommend the use of face masks, and enforce regulations about physical distancing and ventilation, especially in schools if they are open. Some critics have advocated for more government-led legal interventions such as reinforcing quarantine or lockdown. It has been a call for timely implementation of basic principles of pandemic prevention and control to contain the spread and flatten the curves of hospitalisations, deaths, and chronic illness.
 
Instead of following evolving evidence, the FHM has doubled down and defended its approach without reconsidering the assumptions on which the failed national approach is based. It has downplayed the roles of asymptomatic spread, aerosol transmission, children as potential source of infection, and the use of face masks. It has maintained an approach that mainly builds on recommendations to take voluntary actions, guided (in our view) more by public opinion than by sound public health policy. The media has played a crucial role in this pandemic response, mostly lacking in investigative journalism and failing to question or hold the public health agency accountable, with some exceptions.
2
Dagens Nyheter, a major newspaper, recently exposed
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Sweden's large inequities in COVID-19 deaths across income, education, and origin of birth—data that should have informed the national strategy from its inception.
As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden. The country has one of the highest infection rates in western Europe according to Our World in Data COVID-19 statistics, with 606 new infections per million per day, while its neighbours Denmark, Finland, and Norway reported 115, 62, and 112 new infections per million per day, respectively (April 15, 2021). New and more infective and deadly variants have taken over, and by April 15, 2021, the UK SARS-Cov-2 variant was supected to have caused 75–100% of all new cases in all regions. This indicates more rapid spread, more deaths, and that more young people will be affected, with intensive care units already at full capacity in some regions.
4
While other countries are closing down in response to this new surge in cases, Sweden is opening up—high schools were opened on April 1, 2021. To continue on the same trajectory in the face of current trends, without timely action by agency and government leadership, raises concerns about governance and accountability, and ultimately about fundamental ethics and values.

 

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1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

None of it surprises me. These are the same conversations I've been having since February of 2020. Despite going on three live webshows and accurately predicting the infection numbers and deaths, people who refused to believe it never came around.

For the most part now I don't bother engaging because I don't believe people engaging in the discussion are interested in broadening their understanding, they're only interested in being right

Do you have any self awareness at all?  One sentence you tell us how right you are about everything, then in the very next sentence you say debate is pointless because people are "only interested in being right"

😭

Okay that's really it this time LOL

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