Question for members: Investment Grade Cigars.

[canadianbeaver]

For many years I have been open about my cigar collection as a pleasure to smoke, to discuss with members here/elsewhere, and a vehicle for investment. My collection is strategic and healthy thanks to you guys and I thank you!

If I put a pile of dough in the bank, I would get like 1-2% interest. I would risk spending dough on who knows what. A healthy, beautifully maintained pile of cc’s however, in original boxes with all the labels, ribbons and growing older every day? I especially save boxes of ones we love. I figure, if we love them, they must have value?

Last, I look for a special box coming out I think has a future like single malt Scotch in China. Look at Montecristo 520 or Behike. Bought them when they came out for chicken feed. Same with Opus X, boxes of others I sit on. Bolivar Gold Medal and just about any Trinidad, but especially T will apply as well.

American dollars? That is REAL MONEY. I am the Canadianbeaver.

Cheers!

CB

From 2018...

boxes original labels and bands!

- Bolivar Finos

- Cohiba 6

- Monte 2 

- Diplomatico anything

- hypothetical for some day: OR American Regional Edition ?

 

 

[pgwdaddy]

Non-Cohiba ELs generally don't perform that well in the secondary market. I know of few, if any, that have more than doubled in price. Also Hoyo as a brand is probably the worst performing of all the ELs. And the Talisman is performing very poorly compared to past Cohiba ELs. A year after release they are readily available with no price increase--a very bad sign. Robusto Supremos were around a 30-50% premium at the same point. My guess would be these were simply produced in much larger numbers than past Cohiba ELs, something that could also contribute to it being less well-received than its predecessors. I would personally avoid Talisman as an investment. 
Original release BHK is just over a 100% increase now after 9 years, and that was an original release. 1966 is at no less than 300% after only 7 years and demand is very high. Big difference.
If you're really concerned about ROI I would stick to Reservas. If you know what you're doing, a dabble into Cohiba special releases and some very specific ERs. The right humidors can also do well, but again, you have to know what you're doing. 
Also, don't forget there are significant expenses involved in storing these cigars properly, auction fees and transportation of the boxes to any auction house. We're not talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars here with cigars in most cases. $100 can take a huge bite out of one's margins. 

I see! You learning something new every day.


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[Derboesekoenig]

9 hours ago, nKostyan said:

 

I have one business idea for FOH - the creation of a cigar exchange or auction based on FOH "Online Humidor System". The idea of investing in cigars is good, but we will always face problems of authenticity guarantees when we want to sell an opened box. Now Lockers can share the boxes between themselves only by prior arrangement. The opportunity to sell the box on the stock exchange with the shipment to any buyer will be interesting and profitable for Lockers and FOH at the same time...

 

This is what is launching here next month.......

[joshhooper7]

5 boxes of Cohiba Robusto Reserva will give 35% once it sells out on its primary market.

[bmf30180]

Easy.  Travel to Cuba and grab every box of QDO's you can find.  Sell them on FB as soon as you return for 150% profit easily.  Those forums are insane.

[CaptainQuintero]

  I've kind of lost touch of new releases in recent years. Back up to around 2012 it seemed that you could pick a winner from a mile away from the ELs and REs: PL Robustos, Monte Sublimes, Cohibas 1966, PL Lonsdales, the Middle East RAs etc.

  Buy two boxes, smoke one and you could sell the other and make all your money back plus extra.

 The amount of releases that has ramped up, to me at least, has diluted the market and beyond the Cohibas it seems very hit and miss as to what is a safe bet.

Has the market moved on unless you have an easy to access group of buyers who will take whatever is the newest and shiniest? The quick buy/sell vintage market seems to have dried up for regular buyers as Swiss and Andorra sources have emptied out so are you just looking now at high end vintages and big and shiny?

[joeypots]

Look at a  to be discontinued list and stock up on the cigars that shouldn't be discontinued. . I wish I had gone deep on BCG and BCE. I think I could sell those for a profit no sweat. Other than that strategy I think buying cigars for profit is a fools game. The Monte Els have been the best to me for making money on the secondary market. The Dantes? Too soon to tell if they'll be another 520 EL but I'm inclined to think not.

If I had to buy and hold to sell in five years I'd go with:

CORO

RASS

HU #2

MC#1

Siglo VI

And I'm not going to give up my day job.

 

[Jimmy_jack]

Anything Vegas Robaina and LGC. Also any QdO you can grab.

[Haaltert]

Cohiba Reserva
Bolivar Soberanos
Siglo 6
Partagas EL17
Sancho Panza Belux


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[Fugu]

On 12/29/2018 at 2:15 AM, El Presidente said:

It made no sense to me until he pointed out that 8 out of 10 boxes of what vintage cigars he could attain (in what he liked) came from Europe and often taxed.  He has only been into cigars since 2007 from memory. He fell in love with HDM DC Hoyo's from the 70's 80's. He has been aging his own Hoyo's since the late 2000's

Ok, that's indeed making sense then, somehow. Wondered as to why he woudn't have set away boxes and boxes of desDs and DCs in the first place. 

[Wilzc]

Cohiba Talisman seems to be able to do this

Cohiba Robusto Reserva as well!

Depending on the price to obtain the Majestuosos, this too will fly.

I have a feeling the Punch Sir David would as well? But this cigar has already started inflating in value.

Montecristo 80 Anniversario seems to be doing well too!

If we are going for recent releases, Bolivar LE 2018 and Partagas LE2017.


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[BJRPorter]

My .02c. 35% is not worth the risk, because inventory is limited to begin with. You gotta stack deep to look at cigars as an investment, and you have to properly protect your investment. That’ll cut into your inventory budget.

I think about it sometimes, but .35 cents on the dollar is not worth trading enjoyment for income.

I’d rather smoke what I like, when I like it, and not have to consider whether or not I’m burning next year’s margins.

[Piligrim]

I do that few last years, investing for aging.

my best investments before: Cohiba 1966 EL 2011 and Cohiba Robustos Supremos EL 2014. I've bought as many boxes as I could found and hold for few years. and Bolivar Emperador ER Rusia 2011 (I think I had more than 400 boxes of 2500 release). There were moments when I thought I put too much of money, but was keeping them and after few years got pretty good money. Another regional I had good business with was Bolivar 681 ER Bulgaria (small market, country where nobody travels to and small release).

Among regular cigars I had enough of Trini Robusto T, Robusto Extra, Fundadores. all 3 were very succesful by the end. still holding some of those.

As for current special releases I think both Grand Reservas and Bolivar Soberano, Partagas Serie 1 and Cohiba Talisman will be very good investments at the end.

[BJRPorter]

8 hours ago, Piligrim said:

I do that few last years, investing for aging.

my best investments before: Cohiba 1966 EL 2011 and Cohiba Robustos Supremos EL 2014. I've bought as many boxes as I could found and hold for few years. and Bolivar Emperador ER Rusia 2011 (I think I had more than 400 boxes of 2500 release). There were moments when I thought I put too much of money, but was keeping them and after few years got pretty good money. Another regional I had good business with was Bolivar 681 ER Bulgaria (small market, country where nobody travels to and small release).

Among regular cigars I had enough of Trini Robusto T, Robusto Extra, Fundadores. all 3 were very succesful by the end. still holding some of those.

As for current special releases I think both Grand Reservas and Bolivar Soberano, Partagas Serie 1 and Cohiba Talisman will be very good investments at the end.

Wow! I was thinking small time!

400 boxes, 16% of total production. I’m speechless. I gotta crawl out of this thread.

[Piligrim]

Wow! I was thinking small time!
400 boxes, 16% of total production. I’m speechless. I gotta crawl out of this thread.

I bought 700 boxes of 6000 of second Russian regional release and keep buying because sold 600 of those already.

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[Derboesekoenig]

3 minutes ago, Piligrim said:

I bought 700 boxes of 6000 of second Russian regional release and keep buying because sold 600 of those already.

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Russian regionals being sold out of Europe and elsewhere (other than Russia) are commanding premiums. But I guess we know where they are all going...more power to you!

[NSXCIGAR]

I'm not sure why Boli Soberanos is being mentioned so much. Boli special production doesn't typically perform that well, particularly ELs. Boli Super Coronas are 5 years old, were fairly well-received, and have not yet doubled in price and are readily available. The 09 Petit Belicosos have about doubled in value but seem to have topped out about there for a few years with demand not increasing. 

The only Boli I know of that's performed well enough to be an investment is the 09 Especiales No. 2, and that was somewhat expected based on the nature of the release. The 11 Distinguidos is also doing well and the 07 Simones, 11 Emperador and 12 681 also performed acceptably well but not anywhere as good as the Especiales No. 2. The Soberanos just came out and we have no idea how many of these are out there. Totally baseless conjecture that these will perform well as an investment.

If any recent Boli was worth a gamble I'd say the Tesoro or the Mundiales. Hard to find, unique vitolas, format and packaging. Low (Tesoros) and very low (Mundiales) production numbers.

That being said, I have tried a Soberanos and I quite liked it. 

[BrightonCorgi]

1. Just about any Cohiba
2. EL's
3. Books, Gran Reservas, Humidors
4. Anything special commissioned somehow
5. RE's that came out with some fanfare when released 

[Derboesekoenig]

2 minutes ago, SenorPerfecto said:

 

...what do you do with 400 boxes of something?

 

Lol the guy is a retailer

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not sure why Boli Soberanos is being mentioned so much.

This ^^^. A - at this point in time - completely unproven release.

[mk05]

Interesting answers.

[toledo1969]

I have been collecting Habanos for 25 Years, mostly Limitadas and Regional Editions. Some Book Collections and Reserva Editions. For years I never saw any increase in prices, just recently whe Cigars UK LTD started with their Auctions was the secondary market started booming. But then again I paid for a Box of Partagas Series D#3 2001 $425 USD back in 2002. After 17 Years of Carefully Aging this box, I see they went for $550 USD, not that much return if you ask me. And then I saw some RyJ Hermosos EL from 2004 I remember paying around $450 a box and Recently saw them being sold at that same Auction Site for $500 dlls. That's 14 Years of Aging for 50 dlls. 

So I think it really depends of the Cigar Size, Year, and most importantly if the cigars were a good batch, then again the Montecristo 2008 EL Sublimes are a very mediocre Cigar and I see that they go for $500 dlls for a box of 10 at Auction. So one never knows. The only boxes that I think I've had luck are the Edmundo Dantes 109, since I paid around $475 per Box and on the November Auction it sold for 4K Pounds, but to my suprise on the Decembers Auction it went down to 2K Pounds. 

Now if you take into consideration that in order to sell your Collection, you have to have the original invoice, pay export taxes, then sales taxes and auction comision. In the case of the RYJ Hermosos I would have lost money on this transaction. Even on the Partagas Series D#3 EL 2001 probably would break even. So very difficult to gamble with Habanos. Then again I am no expert, I just collect them so I can brag about them and smoke them. 

 

[Piligrim]

Lol the guy is a retailer

Yes, I am

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[Lotusguy]

This ^^^. A - at this point in time - completely unproven release.

Agreed fully.

Boli EL have by and large not done well and these are priced to perfection...

The Boli 5ta Avenida RE has done very well, on the other hand, after a period of no movement. Especially once they were packed into jars (see my comment above).

109 format RE have all done extremely well, come to think of it. Wonder if the LGC Orgullosos will follow that trend.

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, toledo1969 said:

But then again I paid for a Box of Partagas Series D#3 2001 $425 USD back in 2002. After 17 Years of Carefully Aging this box, I see they went for $550 USD, not that much return if you ask me. And then I saw some RyJ Hermosos EL from 2004 I remember paying around $450 a box and Recently saw them being sold at that same Auction Site for $500 dlls. That's 14 Years of Aging for 50 dlls. 

Yes, almost all of the ELs have not been investment worthy. The Party Piramides and Cohiba have done well, but that's about it. Also, the 03 RyJ Hermosos No. 1 has done well also. Not sure why, but IIRC I heard rumblings that they were really phenomenal cigars.

Now it seems with the Talisman HSA has finally reached full saturation and even Cohiba ELs are losing some steam.

The Edmundo Dantes 109 (and the 54 to a lesser degree) is possibly the best performing non-Reserva special release to date. Tremendous performance. The La Escepcion SF is in that conversation as well. However those in the know could have seen that coming. Those are the kidsnds of spots investors have to pick to be successful. 

Interestingly, the ED Belicosos and LE Don Jose aren't showing anywhere near the performance of the others. Again, if you are knowledgeable enough, that could have been predicted, but one really has to know what to look for with each individual cigar. For example, those in the know could have told you that the PL Magnificos, LG Gloriosos, Dip Bushidos or RA Phonecios would be likely to have good upside. But one really needs to be aware and observant of that stuff and act quickly when the time comes.

For those who don't have their fingers on the pulse of the CC market Reservas are pretty much the only reliable option for at least a small guaranteed profit.