Most Definitive Cigar Assertions Ever...

[HarveyBoulevard]

Now that is a title huh?  Now that I have you here...

A few points I will throw out there for discussion.  Should be fun.

1.  Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

I understand ligero, seco, and volado.  I don’t think volado has no flavor.  I just think it has different flavor than ligero and seco.  The combination of all three makes a damn fine cigar.  It doesn’t have to be volado free to be good.  It doesn’t have to be sub 42 ring gauge to be good. 

I won’t tell you what you like if you don’t tell me I have the taste buds of a goat (although I might…I should change my avatar).

2.  Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars. 

I’d wager for every nirvana cigar that got cut, they cut a shitty cigar.  Just like for every new great cigar, they introduce a new shitty cigar.  No one wants it until they can’t get it anymore.  The run on Quai D’Orsay Imperiales and HDM Des Dieux are perfect examples.  God help us the outcry when we officially hear the SLR DC is gone.  Now granted, the Des Dieux is a beautiful and tasty thing.  But when that got cut, they also cut a turd.  It would be like cutting the Parti 898 and the Monti Petite No. 2 at the same time.  We’d all be crying for the 898 but no one would shed a tear for the ole’ Petite No. 2.

Let us cry for the cigars that are no more.  Let us not condemn every new cigar because it is not that old lost friend.

3.  Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money. 

Businesses want your money…NAY…they NEED your money.  Advertising is how they get your money.  Shiny new bands are advertising.  Shiny new bands make businesses money.  It’s a vicious circle.  No one can stop it.  No one will stop it.  If you don’t buy it, someone else will.  We don’t have to like it but I think we agree that it is out of our control.  DON’T ARGUE WITH ME…IT IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL!!!!

I don’t think FOH is accurate sample of the cigar smoking community.  I think you all are probably a little more discerning than the rest of us.  I am a Neanderthal (maybe that should be my new avatar).  Advertising works on me and I don’t like it…but it does.  I will buy the Trinidad Topes LE 2016 because it is pretty and shiny.  If it is good (which it is), I will buy more.  The ‘shiny’ brought me in but the quality will get me to stay.  It doesn’t work for all of them, but it sure works for some of them.

4.  They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

From what I read on here, there are good decades and bad decades for cigars.  There are good years and bad years for cigars.  There are good factory codes and there are bad factory codes…generally).  Just because the 1873 Don Julio Especiales isn’t made the same in 2017, doesn’t make it worse.  It just makes it different.  Nothing stays the same, including human grown plant like organisms that are then harvested by humans, cured by humans, rolled by humans, yada yada yada.

2014 was a good year for smokes and I hear some you saying there are years you wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole…and it wasn’t 2013 or 2015.

Summary

-          Small ring gauge cigars are good…large ring gauge cigars are good.  To each his own.

-          Old discontinued cigars are good…new cigars are good.  To each his own.

-          Advertising works.  I’m trying to find out to fit a 24:24 into my marketing plan.  Bye god it works.  Hate it all you want…but it works.

-          Today’s HDM Churchill is not made the exact same as twenty years ago.  I have a box of each.  They are different…but they are both excellent.

Caveats:  All fact checking was done by my 3.5 year old daughter.  All opinions are fact until proven otherwise.  I very much enjoy everyone's wealth of knowledge so lets have at it.

Additional Caveats:  All of this is in good humor and laughter...I have thick skin...You couldn't hurt my feelings if you tried...but no reason to try...right!?

 

Let the melee ensue

[JohnS]

1.  Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

If I had a choice of two cigars (of different size) that I rate equally in preference, I find that I tend to favour the skinnier one.

2.  Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars. 

They are when you've had a long-term sentimental connection with them. Sometimes the vitola is just perfect for your needs, for me, even if other cigars have similar blends, nothing can replace the H.Upmann Petit Corona and Hoyo de Monterrey Le Hoyo du Prince, for example.

If the San Cristobal de La Habana El Principe was deleted I think I'd be comatose for a week in shock!

3.  Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money. 

True...and I ultimately am responsible whether I give it to them ir not. I actually enjoy going out of my way to replace products that become 'hard-to-get' if they are better products. Why should I settle for less?

4.  They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

I predict that quite a few of us will differ on this point of view. For example, @PigFish feels that the current Por Larranaga Petit Coronas is not the same as the old version (before it was cut and brought back). I for one trust his judgement on this.

I also have every confidence that @Smallclub, @Fugu and @NSXCIGAR will provide other personal examples where cigars were made better in the past.

Plus, I'm confident we'll get others rightly lamenting examples of the recent much-deleted Punch marca.

P.S. an aged Hoyo de Monterrey Le Hoyo des Dieux if everything I want in a cigar...perfect vitola, perfect blend, perfect time needed to savour it. I'd prefer to hold onto the hope that it's in a production hiatus rather than being covertly deleted. Alas, I live in hope! 

 

 

 

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

10 minutes ago, JohnS said:

P.S. an aged Hoyo de Monterrey Le Hoyo des Dieux if everything I want in a cigar...perfect vitola, perfect blend, perfect time needed to savour it. I'd prefer to hold onto the hope that it's in a production hiatus rather than being covertly deleted. Alas, I live in hope! 

I hope you are right we are just in a hiatus.  Its one of my favorites and I will lament if it is truly gone.

[PigFish]

... just coming off, pissing-off a fellow in the Humidor Tutorial forum, may be have to start in here with you next Harv... -LOL

-Piggy

[HarveyBoulevard]

oink oink...I got some free time   and I can't stop laughing so you will not be able to piss me off...gauntlet...thrown...down...

seriously though, don't get carpal tunnel on this one.

[Philc2001]

1.  Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

That's subjective of course. Here's another subjective opinion, cigars over 50 RG are a waste of tobacco.  

2.  Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars. 

Subjective too. There is a certain uniqueness to every cigar, the crop year, the tobacco strain, the specific blend, all of which works together to make something that is fleeting. Once gone, it is perhaps more notable for its absence because it will never again bring you the satisfaction, euphoria, entertainment that you associate with it.

3.  Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money. 

They do! I choose where to spend my money, and when they piss me off I spend my money elsewhere. I went on a decade long boycott because they pissed me off with changes and cuts. Fuente, Torano, Oliva, Padron, Cuban Crafters and others were the benefactors. 

4.  They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

Well of course they don't! So what? I don't care how they make them, I'm buying a finished product. If I like it, I buy it, if not, I won't (see point #3). However, some things you just wish they would not change... like I very much favor the SLB, and I prefer no bands, and I certainly had my favorite vitolas I collected and smoked for many years, and I miss those. I can get used to new product, but I can lament the old too .  

 

I don't have to like what you like, and vise versa. To each his own. Live and let live. All good.

 

 

[OZCUBAN]

I have a simple philosophy its a crap shoot always has been always will be, know what you like, smoke what you like ,then in theory you should like what you smoke

skinnys fatties and everything in between what ever floats your boat .... 

[RijkdeGooier]

My philosophy regarding Cuban cigars is simple. 

If I like a certain vitola/blend I am perfectly happy to smoke them as my mainstay. 

I am not against new products or cutting products from a line as long as the remaining cigars remian relatively constant in both taste and quality. 

I have found that keeping quality and taste a constant has been very difficult for Cuba. Case in point being the development of the Monte No.2 from the 1990's till now. 

[soutso]

1.  Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

For me, the most consistency in terms of positive flavours comes from the 38-44 ring gauge cigars. I find that once they get thicker than that the flavours get a little diluted. Kind of like adding a small amount of water to a glass of Coke. 

2.  Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars. 

Agreed. Though from the discontinued cigars I've had, I have detected more complexity and better, firmer construction. 

3.  Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money. 

Of course they do. They also want to maximise profit margins and will continue to give you less and charge a premium for it. It's their version of what we see at the supermarkets where products are shrinking. 

4.  They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

There are a variances within a single box let alone year to year. 

[Jeremy Festa]

Nice thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fugu]

 

[PigFish]

My argument is largely made on the ‘smoking experience.’ This is the defining factor for all my smoking beliefs. Value is a component in smoking, not as a direct correlation to the experience, but if smoking is time and money, then it is a factor. As a caveat, I would say a large percentage of the data that I will present here will be anecdotal, personal and without substantial proof!

 

Frankly I cannot find a lot of argument in what you have written @HarveyBoulevard… you express in one place many sentiments that I have placed all around the forum. However when one generalizes there are of course exceptions. Like @JohnS has stated for me, there are examples, but those examples are personal and everywhere and more-or-less specific and not general.

 

Here are my generalizations.

 

Thin ring cigars are better than the fat ones! I have tastes, and this is where my tastes have lead me. Smoke for smoke, time and time again, I get more satisfaction, better smoking experiences from medium and thinner cigars. I could actually make due with cigars 42 ring and less, missing out on some of my favorites like the RGCE and the Boli CE, and not really shed a tear. Paraphrasing my friend @soutso, thin rig cigars appear to me to be more cigar and less fluff. The fluff takes up humidor space, drives up the duties (for those that pay them) and simply make the cigar larger for no reason, to me! I suppose if i wanted to get drunk, I would rather do that with a few ounces of straight alcohol than a 12 pack of beer. If I want a good hour smoke, I get a better one in a PC than from a robusto.

 

What is it about the slender ring cigar? I don't know that I can definitively answer that. But in general, I would have to say that medium and slender ring cigars are more pungent, complex and provide a better smoking experience, generally.

 

Before I wrap up this post, let's talk just a little bit about yesteryear and cigars then, verses now. Let's start with the Cuban cigar catalog and what comprises it. The catalog of yesteryear contained many medium and thin ring cigars. Now lets talk a little math for the logic without me doing the research on the actual numbers. If you will allow me… Lets say in our example that the Cuban catalog of cigars consisted of 100 different cigars. Of those, I preferred 40… Those are the best of them as far as I am concerned. So my ratio of good cigars to mediocre cigars in this example is 4/6 or 2/3. What happens of we change the catalog? What if we delete 20 of the cigars that have proven to me to be superior and add 20 that I won’t smoke? We can argue if I am being fair about smoking fat untested cigars based on my past experience with them at a later date…. If we look a the number now, my preferred cigars have fallen from 40 to 20, while the ones that I believe are inferior have risen from 60 to 80… What has happened to the catalog, and then to the Cuban cigar? Well, I will tell you. Now my ratio of good verses bad cigars is 20/80 or 1/4 cigars. That my friends, represents evidence of the real breakdown of the Cuban cigar!!! By adjusting the catalog, unless you view all cigars equally, cigars have either gotten better, or gotten worse. It just depend on if your tastes run to violas, and individual cigars that you believe were superior and were cancelled. You get a compounding effect when some of the great ones were replaced with more of the lousy ones!!!

 

Based on evidence then, accompanied by my individual taste, the Cuban cigar is on the rocks. There were better cigars made ‘back in history,’ not as related to the exact cigar made today, but because that cigar is no longer made today…

 

For now, lets not talk about ‘production quality’ as I am not up for that one tonight!

 

There could be many caveats that I could add here. As I've always said the best cigar you ever smoked could come from any box, any vitola, and packaged in any given year. Excellent cigars are certainly still being made, yet when vitola is held as a datum, and one such as a I favors some vitolas over others, there is no conclusion to be drawn other than the Cuban cigar in general, is declining.

 

We can talk production quality and some of the other points when I am up for it!

 

Cheers!

 

-the Pig

 

… well barrister?

[bnasse9900]

1.  Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

Holding a skinny cigar makes my hips look fat, so I prefer a wider gauge.  The fat cigar is the skinny mirror of the smoking world.

2.  Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars. 

People will always be nostalgic for the past, and want for the exclusive and hard-to-get.  I'm guilty as charged.  My goal is to find the best "readily available cigar that they'll never discontinue" and smoke it forever (or until they inevitably discontinue it).

3.  Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money. 

To me there are two ways to look at this.  

a. A company who takes the time to work on presentation/image of a product will put the same level of effort into the product itself.

b. A shiny package is covering something.

I tend to lean towards the former.  I think the smoking "experience" starts with the first sight of the package.  If it looks cool, it puts you into the mood of "this could be cool."  If the package looks like my 6-year-old niece made it (I mean, she's talented, but come on...), then I begin to think that the cigar may be suspect.  It's a mind game of the subconscious. 

4.  They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

This (or something distantly related to this) is something I've been thinking about for a while, and may start a separate thread for it.  Not so much "this discontinued vitola was better than the ones now available, as "why is the same vitola better this year than last?"

I get it... Tobacco is a plant that has growing seasons with varying degrees of success.  But is that it?  What about variations within the same year, and from the same factory for that matter? How important is the torcedor?  And do the better rollers get the better leaves?  

In other words, trying to outline everything that makes a cigar good or bad, and attempt to quantify it.  For instance:

- Crop: 50%

- Leaf aging conditions/process: 20%

- Blend selection (compared to previous years of the same vitola): 10%

- Rolling expertise: 10%

- Marketing: 5%

- Price: 5%

Cool thread.

 

[garbandz]

I prefer the skinny cigars.better flavors,more concentration........

The cigars of the 90's were better in my opinion. Aromas and flavors I have not found in any cigar since then.

Different tobacco, different manufacturing technique, different final product.

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Nice thread


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Its like bathing in chum, putting on a meat wet suit, and jumping in the ocean off the coast of Mooloolaba.  Fun things happen.

I had too much free time on my hands yesterday

[SaintMickey®]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Nice thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

 

I too will be watching this "Super Bowl Debate" from the sidelines as well smoking a Hoyo no. 1. Not too skinny not too fat...Just Right.

God Speed John Glenn.

[Fugu]

Got me to think about it for a second in order to come up with short answers to complex questions.

1. Skinny cigars are not ‘better’ than fat cigars.

True - a matter of personal taste and smoking preferences (but slender cigars are always better...)

2. Old discontinued cigars are not ‘better’ than current production cigars.

True, but the value for money has usually been better. And quite often that even holds for today's vintage pricing (reg. production)! And when certain formats are gone, it is not just a matter of "better", it is a matter of complete and permanent loss.

3. Business (State run or otherwise) wants your money.

Yes of course - what else?

4. They don’t make them like they used to is… malarkey…MALARKEY!

No, they never make and they never made them "like they used to" - impossible!

At first glance, the basics may always stay the same. But the history of the Cuban cigar and its industry is a story of change: Inventions, development and change of growing areas over the last three centuries, fights, wars and revolutions, land seizures, cartels, deals, diseases, seed amalgamation and dilution, research and development, tobacco varieties and strains, swapping/termination of brands and factories, personnel, packaging, shipping, fumigation/freezing, production means and cheats in general, counterfeiting and anti-counterfeiting, soil conditioning, and last not least weather and climate (in no particular order, non-exhaustive). There is and never has been a standstill. The only constant out there is Isla Cuba, its geography. So, while there is a great and long history in Cuban cigar making, there really is no true "like they used to do". That's pretty much a chimera in our heads - a matter of temporal perspective at the very least!

Let us condemn the bad times and enjoy the good times as they come and go, go and come.

[SaintMickey®]

Global Warming is good or bad for Cuban Cigars?

GO Discuss. 

[Akela3rd]

" userid="649"] Global Warming is good or bad for Cuban Cigars?

GO Discuss. 

Very intense heating of the atmosphere in the immediate vicinity of the foot of the cigar is good, but ultimately causes it's destruction. It's a short term gain which governments are trying to control.

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

[bnasse9900]

7 hours ago, PigFish said:

 

 

Before I wrap up this post, let's talk just a little bit about yesteryear and cigars then, verses now. Let's start with the Cuban cigar catalog and what comprises it. The catalog of yesteryear contained many medium and thin ring cigars. Now lets talk a little math for the logic without me doing the research on the actual numbers. If you will allow me… Lets say in our example that the Cuban catalog of cigars consisted of 100 different cigars. Of those, I preferred 40… Those are the best of them as far as I am concerned. So my ratio of good cigars to mediocre cigars in this example is 4/6 or 2/3. What happens of we change the catalog? What if we delete 20 of the cigars that have proven to me to be superior and add 20 that I won’t smoke? We can argue if I am being fair about smoking fat untested cigars based on my past experience with them at a later date…. If we look a the number now, my preferred cigars have fallen from 40 to 20, while the ones that I believe are inferior have risen from 60 to 80… What has happened to the catalog, and then to the Cuban cigar? Well, I will tell you. Now my ratio of good verses bad cigars is 20/80 or 1/4 cigars. That my friends, represents evidence of the real breakdown of the Cuban cigar!!! By adjusting the catalog, unless you view all cigars equally, cigars have either gotten better, or gotten worse. It just depend on if your tastes run to violas, and individual cigars that you believe were superior and were cancelled. You get a compounding effect when some of the great ones were replaced with more of the lousy ones!!!

 

 

@PigFish I know you were using arbitrary numbers for the ease of proving your point.  A few questions/comments (and the comments are actually questions too, since I'm a novice when it comes to Cuban cigars).

- This logic only works if a. you've had the opportunity to try all discontinued cigars, and all new production cigars, and b. you feel that the old ones are better than the new ones.  In your experience, do you think this is accurate?  And, if so, what the heck happened?  What's the root cause of replacing good cigars with bad cigars (I know that good and bad are subjective...)? Is there simply less "good" product to start with?  Or do you think demand has forced Habanos SA to push out product too quickly and with less quality control (I'd compare this to a craft brewery pushing to a larger distribution network, and the product potentially being compromised for speed)?

- Anyone have a good example for comparison sake?  A skinny cigar from a brand that blows away a similar fat cigar from the same brand?

 

[dominattorney]

4 hours ago, bnasse9900 said:

 

Anyone have a good example for comparison sake?  A skinny cigar from a brand that blows away a similar fat cigar from the same brand?

 

Montecristo especial or especial no 2, in my book, way better than the Monte open eagle/master all of those. Even the double edmundo I'd say pales in comparison. Course that's a hair aplitter, since the standard edmundo and standard no 2 are both good sticks as well. All things considered, I'd take an especial over anything else Monte makes. 

[canadianbeaver]

I invite any of you to make a blue box on the beaver.

Every day is different. When a post is longer than  4 inches I start hallucinating unless stuff is for sale.

Size matters, but quality of smoke experience matters more.

Time is our friend. Old or young, if we like it, good stuff.

Come up to my house, and we can smoke anytime.

This is important as I see it.

Carry on brothers!

CB

 

 

 

 

[dicko]

I increasingly prefer larger ring cigars. I started off with PC's as my favourite but have moved to robustos. Ie 42 to 50 including similar sizes. I cannot explain it.

When people say a thinner ring guage is more concentrated flavours is that because the ratio of ligero and seco to volado is different? Is that the sole reason people assert this?

Does volado assist only burning and filling size? Or does it impart its own flavour? It must have some tobacco flavour profile.

I would be really interested to hear or pointed in the direction of an answer please.

Im interested because, as i say, my interests have shifted to 48-52 ring guage.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

[Smallclub]

5 hours ago, bnasse9900 said:

- Anyone have a good example for comparison sake?  A skinny cigar from a brand that blows away a similar fat cigar from the same brand?
 

To name a few: the ERDM Grandes de España was by far the best cigar of the marca; many people see the Montecarlos as the best regular prod. Por Larrañaga (the Magnificos from 2007 is an other story…); many people see the 40rg Fundadores and Reyes as the best Trinidad…

[canadianbeaver]

Never heard that word volado until this thread. Appreciate learning. Thanks!