Rhinoww Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 I have a bit of a personal unicorn cigar. I have smoked one in my life and it remains superlative. Perhaps it was the moment. Perhaps the weather. Perhaps just that stick. Others have, however, had similar responses. I recently had an opportunity to purchase a partial cab. I hesitated due to price. I have yet to recalibrate to the new prices, nor the premium for aged out of production stock pricing. I buy to smoke. While I do the occasional trade I have never sold. Just not my thing. While I can afford the asking price, it still seemed like too much even though it was going rate. These are still just cigars - good ones - but something I burn. but this box got me thinking. Are folks buying rarer boxes these days they enjoy and perhaps also as investments? Do folks buy boxes and think that they may sell half a box in day 5 years to try and recoup? I don’t try to time markets (much) and my investments are in growth areas typically. Cuban Cigars are a monopoly and I don’t want to place a bet on that monopoly surviving. I won’t likely be buying these cigars but curious if the approach to the buying off BR or private sales as any sort of an investment or as the purchase of a consumable (my view) with a value proposition around your approach
Popular Post BrightonCorgi Posted May 7, 2023 Popular Post Posted May 7, 2023 At this point I would find it hard to believe that anyone sitting on dozen or more boxes of Habanos has not considered the investment value of what they have. When anything now costs 2-4x it did when you bought it; you take notice. Does not matter how deep your pockets are. 8 1
Perla Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 Before covid and before the insane price hike of HSA I build up a decent stock of cigars. Last year I went through my inventory and took all the boxes, formats, brands out which I hoarded over the years. Plan is to sell them and buy the cigars which I peel my eyes in the last 2-3 years. Just regular cigars no RE, no limitadas just the essential cigars. Of course it comes in handy that the prices are skyrocket up. When I sell them it’s for a fair price. If it turns out as a battle of ego bidder’s, not of my business. Enjoy the extra cask of champagne and live is good.
Popular Post Chibearsv Posted May 7, 2023 Popular Post Posted May 7, 2023 2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said: At this point I would find it hard to believe that anyone sitting on dozen or more boxes of Habanos has not considered the investment value of what they have. When anything now costs 2-4x it did when you bought it; you take notice. Does not matter how deep your pockets are. I’ve got 30-40 unopened CC boxes that will be smoked or traded. I paid a fair price when I bought them, so they’re exactly what I wanted at the price I wanted to pay. I can’t replace them at the same price, so I’m not considering selling them. 6
Çnote Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 While working in the alcohol business, I often helped people liquidate collections in times of strife, be it financial, health, or the unfortunate passing of a beloved. My worst clients on the other side of the transaction were 100% profit motivated and had no interest in good ready to drink at fair prices, they wanted seriously price-depressed blue chips to hold and sell later. The best clients would buy the entire parcel at a discount for a single transaction from a fair valuation. I can't imagine that the same market forces aren't affecting the CC market as it's valuation grows. People want their money to make more money; tangible luxury goods are a way to do that. For a little bit of perspective: Domaine Romani Conti - La Romani Conti retail at release 1969 in 1975ish $9 Today $14k 1999 in 2002 $1500 Today $30k 2019 today $27k, realistically $32k I had the experience of inventorying a cellar 20 years ago from the 1960s-1990s much still with price tags from the early 1970s. $9 was crazy back then. Here's a story that I probably shouldn't tell, but I imagine the gentleman is as prideful of this as I am. Same job, we had client files from 1982 futures campaign. All 1er growths were roughly $150 for 6, $240 for 12. The owner told me that back then he deliberately made a hard 6pk price to push the 12pk sale. We looked up this tidbit to help a collector and his accountant show that even with the low acquisition cost in 1982 and the high return at 2002ish, that 20 years of storage had eroded any real gains as investment. That being said, the gentleman took all his cash from the sale of 1982 and put it into 2000 1er BX just before release (specially negotiated back to 2000 en premier prices released in 2001). In 2012, three or four jobs later, I again helped him show that he had made no return given the cost of storage and helped liquidate his 2000s and put him in Barolos and Burgundy as BX was tough then (and tougher now). I expect he'll find me again soon, some games are fun to play! 2
PartagasIV Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 Only cigar I bought as a pure investment was a Majestuosos humidor. Everything else, it's bought to smoke. I see it the price appreciation as a secondary positive externality. Doesn't hurt. Bit of a bummer I'll never actively buy as much again w/price increases. Can't afford to stockpile, though that is probably true for a majority of us. 1
Islandboy Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 “Investment” has never really factored into any of my cigar purchases. I purchase them to enjoy, and aside from letting certiain boxes gather some age, nothing is off limits. 3
Çnote Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 To actually answer this question: I have two boxes I consider 'investments' That being said, until they are 'ready+' I won't sell them. I'll just see where I am personally in roughly 10 years. Maybe I dispose of my collection in its entirety before then. Baring that, I'll probably smoke them. My only calculation would be what does 1.5 hours cost? If my $16 CC are then $300 (and $300 is still ≈$300) they are sold. My $16 CC are already $25+, so who knows? If someone came to me with a already diverse portfolio and wanted to 'play' with luxury consumables with the right mentality and was 100% risk ready, I would totally be looking at CC as best investment possible. Easy inexpensive storage, easy logistics upon liquidation. Theorize a situation in which vintage CC prices come down. I'll buy you a drink if it's valid.
havanaclub Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 Never ever thought of them as an investment as I buy to smoke and enjoy. However, knowing I could at any time sell them if I had to stop smoking for example, I could easily do it at a profit. But I never thought about selling … until now and seeing young CoRo snapped up for 1600-1700 a cab. The thought has crossed my mind after peaking at BR last night lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
Rhinoww Posted May 7, 2023 Author Posted May 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Chibearsv said: Cheers Binem! You are killing me smalls. 1
targa88 Posted May 7, 2023 Posted May 7, 2023 Never thought of them as an investment. I will smoke and enjoy what I have, replace what I can. Debated at times about whether I should have bought more of something in particular that I enjoyed that is now discontinued. That being said - life is short - enjoy what you have - particularly the experience rather than the possession... 3
LordAnubis Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 My investment? No. My daughters? Sure! I’ll be going through and smoking mine. When I keel over what’s left should be a good nest egg for a house or something.
El Hoze Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 I think it all comes down to your mentality when you make the initial purchase. I started building cigar inventory well before the crazy times because it struck me that availability has always been unreliable and I felt like one day I’d be settled down and have a house and kids, etc. and I wouldn’t want to deal with the drama of buying Cuban cigars. I’d just have a nice stockpile and that would be it. Here I am, and so I’m just executing on the plan! Wine for me is different. I have flipped a ton of California wines over the years where I have allocations. Plenty of good wine around for this layman. I can recreate that easily. With good Cuban cigars that’s difficult.
Bijan Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 18 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said: At this point I would find it hard to believe that anyone sitting on dozen or more boxes of Habanos has not considered the investment value of what they have. When anything now costs 2-4x it did when you bought it; you take notice. Does not matter how deep your pockets are. I thought about it for a bit. Sold a box. Got a good price. Still regretted it. Might still sell a box here and there, but probably won't liquidate anything unless I need the money. 🤞 That being said, if prices keep going crazy, it may reach a point where it's even more ridiculous than it is now. If Party Shorts hit $100 a cigar... 18 hours ago, Rhinoww said: I won’t likely be buying these cigars but curious if the approach to the buying off BR or private sales as any sort of an investment or as the purchase of a consumable (my view) with a value proposition around your approach Whether cigars are an investment or not. I don't think cigars from auction are an investment. You're paying top dollar in an auction situation, plus a commission fee, plus your chain of possession is significantly less clear (unless you're buying from one of the vendors selling stock via BR). Buy to smoke because as @Çnote said, the smart bet is not that vintage cigars will get cheaper. In general though luxury products are not an investment. If anyone makes money other than retailers or producers, it is generally people flipping them quickly on the secondary market by finding price differences / arbitrage (e,g, buying MSRP from a dealer that can't sell over). 1
BrightonCorgi Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 55 minutes ago, Bijan said: I thought about it for a bit. Sold a box. Got a good price. Still regretted it. Might still sell a box here and there, but probably won't liquidate anything unless I need the money. 🤞 That being said, if prices keep going crazy, it may reach a point where it's even more ridiculous than it is now. If Party Shorts hit $100 a cigar... Investment does not necessarily mean you have to sell it at a future point. An investment for later consumption decades later. For your legacy; who knows. Maybe sell them when you realize you cannot ever finish them. People buy/invest/collect wine all the time and come to a realization that they cannot consume 10k bottles in their cellar at 70 years old. The plan was to drink them all, but the reality is much different. What does one do now? Sell. 1
Çnote Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 19 hours ago, Bijan said: In general though luxury products are not an investment. I'd clarify this as 'luxury products are not a sound investment.' Luxury consumables are notoriously storage dependant, and often subject to brokerage fees upon liquidation. 'Flipping' requires surfing the hype wave, long term gains are often subject to the whims of future cognoscenti. Often in wine, the next great vintage overshadows a perfectly fine vintage. Bourbon has gotten crazy with BTAC releases and batch tracking. I have always advised that clients 'invest in future happiness.' If you happen to hit the jackpot and have something 'too expensive to enjoy,' liquidate (and reassess your value system). If you instead see that your assets can be exchanged for even more assets for happiness, now you're thinking! It's all just a game. 18 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said: Investment does not necessarily mean you have to sell it at a future point. You and I are often typing the same thoughts in these discussions. 2
Bijan Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said: An investment for later consumption decades later. This was entirely my goal when building my collection/stash. I got the timing right, since I bought everything 2020-2022. But so far this asset allocation, hedge against price inflation, hoarding, type of investment has not translated into the selling for profit and cashing out type of investment.
Ford2112 Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 I have never felt like anything I buy is an investment. When I'm dead I can't take it with me and I have no one to leave it to.
Popular Post El Presidente Posted May 8, 2023 Popular Post Posted May 8, 2023 They are only cigars people Smoke them if you have them. Sell some if you have a higher order need. Make them work for you either way. 11
ha_banos Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 There are a couple of buy two way too expensive boxes and sell one so the other doesn't make my eyes water when I smoke one. But price hikes are such that I'll probably shift both now. And one box, to sell on so I can buy a few regular boxes as and when. Hardly investments. But hsa done this.
Duxnutz Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 13 hours ago, targa88 said: Never thought of them as an investment. I will smoke and enjoy what I have, replace what I can. Debated at times about whether I should have bought more of something in particular that I enjoyed that is now discontinued. That being said - life is short - enjoy what you have - particularly the experience rather than the possession... Amen. I treat bourbon the same way. I always thought both were for the ‘Everyman’ and have real distaste for the wankery at times. My own saving grace is Australia did to cigar smokers a decade before what Habanos has done to the rest of the world just recently so anyone decently stocked up long ago. 1
joeypots Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 Not so much an investment as an unexpected windfall. I have sold of cigars that I did not care for as fivers but that's about the extent of my trading career and I never made much profit, if any. Except for a recent sale of a ’14 box for something like six times what I paid. I’ll use those funds to procure recent regular production cigars, if I can get them. 1
Çnote Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 2 hours ago, joeypots said: I’ll use those funds to procure recent regular production cigars, if I can get them. That's the spirit!
GVan Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 Great question and to each his own. Whether it was books, wine, CC's, now bourbon and good NC's, all of my collections have been purchased to enjoy with friends and family! My wife and I have been lucky and ate / drank at some of the finest restaurants in the world (for business). At about 35 years old I decided that someday, I wanted my friends and family to experience the same enjoyment. As @BrightonCorgi said - all of these purchases were made for "future enjoyment". Whether its by me waiting for a Hoyo to hit 4 years old or a Juan Lopez at 5 years - the satisfaction I get from smoking one at peak flavor is always worth the investment of $'s and time. Even better is when I can introduce someone to something that's now "perfect" and watch their reaction. My wife and I have collected wine since we were in our 20's. I always pair the wine with the food we are serving, but also, the experience of the guests. Last year we had some of our best friends over for steak, grill seared vegetables, 3-cheese potatoes (nothing fancy) but served with two bottles of 1997 Heitz, Martha's Vineyard Cab. The last 2 bottles I had -- decanted for 7 hours - it was "perfect" and as @Çnote says "it's all about future happiness". We still talk about that dinner. Don't think I'll ever sell any of my CC's - just share them with someone who'll enjoy and appreciate them. 2
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