Larger RG cigars produce a more complex flavor

[Dbone]

I've been told this from a few BOTL and the laymen in me thinks... okay if there's more leaf there's more flavor & complexity. On the flip side of that, there's also a lot of room for crappy leaf to ruin the cigars. I rarely venture over the 50RG cigars, and I know there's a small following who favor the thinner RG. I did smoke a Lancero over the weekend and it was outstanding.

I've never had, but guess sometime I should get some Siglo VI or can someone recommend another larger RG cuban cigar to try, maybe an RE?

[anacostiakat]

Behike's come to mind. But rarely for me do larger ring sizes equate to complexity.

[CanuckSARTech]

It all depends, IMO, on the blend and the tobacco quality. I think you can't say definitively that a larger or smaller ring gauge produces a more complex/nuanced flavour than one or the other.

For example, LGC - I get so many more flavours and much more complexity out of a good MdO 1 or 2 compared to a Tainos. But, even within that marca, those lines supposedly had different blending/flavour profiles. In contrast, Cohiba Piramide Extras compared to Lanceros - while both are epic, I think the complexity in the PE's will be outstanding in due time.

I do think that certain marcas and/or blends just inherently work better in a small or large RG format. But it all depends on each person's individual palate.

[CaptainQuintero]

Complex to me implies more flavours at once, evolution implies a changing of those flavours as the cigars progresses.

Generally for me a larger ring gauge means a softer, more mellow smoke at the cost of concentration of flavour. Mainly I would assume due to the increased amount of volado and it's inherent characteristics. This reduced concentration could I suppose make it harder to pick out more feint flavours in a cigar's complexity.

Personally I'd disagree with the statement, if I want to concentrate on a complex cigar I will reach for a smaller rg, if I want to smoke while relaxing and say, read a book, I will reach for a larger rg cigar

Cohiba Lancero - Cohiba robusto

any PC - the marca's corresponding robusto

ERDM demi tasse - Choix Supreme

Partagas lonsdale - D4

Montecristo especial - Edmundo

LGC #3 - LGC #2

etc etc

[CanuckSARTech]

Partagas lonsdale - D4

Montecristo especial - Edmundo

Some perfect examples there. I myself was thinking Party 898 vs SDN4's, but I really like CQ's thoughts there.

[Stanislaw]

I'm actually curious how the larger ring gauge cigars will age compared to a smaller ring gauge...

[Dbone]

I do think that certain marcas and/or blends just inherently work better in a small or large RG format.

This I can believe.

[Smallclub]

Just an example: I find more complexity in a thin ERDM demi tasse or Grandes de España than in the average Choix Suprême…

[Dbone]

Generally for me a larger ring gauge means a softer, more mellow smoke at the cost of concentration of flavour.

I can't really comment on the larger RG being a softer, more mellow smoke because I really don't have much experience. The 30's RG group I need more experience and time with. Rate of smoking them is delicate and if not careful they can be ruined. However, I've had some really smooth as silk 39RG

[Dbone]

Just an example: I find more complexity in a thin ERDM demi tasse or Grandes de España than in the average Choix Suprême…

I'm a fan of the Choix Supreme, I'll be on the hunt for some demi tasse for comparison, thanks. I've never had a 30RG cigar.

[PigFish]

I've been told this from a few BOTL and the laymen in me thinks... okay if there's more leaf there's more flavor & complexity. On the flip side of that, there's also a lot of room for crappy leaf to ruin the cigars. I rarely venture over the 50RG cigars, and I know there's a small following who favor the thinner RG. I did smoke a Lancero over the weekend and it was outstanding.

I've never had, but guess sometime I should get some Siglo VI or can someone recommend another larger RG cuban cigar to try, maybe an RE?

Not implying that you are a rookie my friend, this is a cigar novice assumption. It is a simple form of prejudice; lack of knowledge based on a visual reference to draw a conclusion.

This is not to say that individualism cannot overcome what many cigar smokers see as empirical data, that large ring cigar can be complex. The large girth however is an indication to me, that the cigar will likely be less satisfying as a great cigar and cost me more money than a medium or thin cigar.

It all depends, IMO, on the blend and the tobacco quality. I think you can't say definitively that a larger or smaller ring gauge produces a more complex/nuanced flavour than one or the other.

For example, LGC - I get so many more flavours and much more complexity out of a good MdO 1 or 2 compared to a Tainos. But, even within that marca, those lines supposedly had different blending/flavour profiles. In contrast, Cohiba Piramide Extras compared to Lanceros - while both are epic, I think the complexity in the PE's will be outstanding in due time.

I do think that certain marcas and/or blends just inherently work better in a small or large RG format. But it all depends on each person's individual palate.

This is a statement of individualism in cigars or perhaps even cigar blends and I agree with it. I will take a step further and say that I 'believe' that there is in optimum level of the amounts of certain tobaccos verses air flow created by the smoker. I cannot prove this. If this is the case then hundreds of years of tobacco development and experience gave us the ubiquitous nature of some sizes of cigars. It has taken Tabacuba but a few decades to destroy that history and the evedence of it!

Complex to me implies more flavours at once, evolution implies a changing of those flavours as the cigars progresses.

Generally for me a larger ring gauge means a softer, more mellow smoke at the cost of concentration of flavour. Mainly I would assume due to the increased amount of volado and it's inherent characteristics. This reduced concentration could I suppose make it harder to pick out more feint flavours in a cigar's complexity.

Personally I'd disagree with the statement, if I want to concentrate on a complex cigar I will reach for a smaller rg, if I want to smoke while relaxing and say, read a book, I will reach for a larger rg cigar

Cohiba Lancero - Cohiba robusto

any PC - the marca's corresponding robusto

ERDM demi tasse - Choix Supreme

Partagas lonsdale - D4

Montecristo especial - Edmundo

LGC #3 - LGC #2

etc etc

Much of this I agree with too. We all have our own spin. This, as I see it, is a generalized statement about the relationship of size of cigar to a smoking experience, just as I have done, but with the smokers own theories. I see this generalization not as prejudice, such as the novice assuming that a larger, more expensive cigar will be a better one, but one from an experienced smoker based on empirical smoking data. Better cigar, being a subjective term. I like the fact that the quoted text relates them as different, not better or worse, which is likely more fair than my evaluation.

The Demi Tasse is a great little smoke. In fact, the Bolivar Demme Tasse, when they were available were one of my all time favorite cigars. Not favorite little cigars, but favorite cigars!!!

Is the Exquisitos still available? While they are expensive, they can be marvelous little cigars. The destruction of this type of cigar, the marevas and sub-PC vitolas is a crime as I see it.

-the Pig

[mk05]

LGC - I get so many more flavours and much more complexity out of a good MdO 1 or 2 compared to a Tainos.

I don't know where to start.

[CanuckSARTech]

I don't know where to start.

LOL. I knew that would likely pique the interest / curiousity of some.

Go ahead....

[mk05]

I'll preface the following statement by saying that this is very much an exception to the rule. Personally, I think thicker gauge LGC stands out more than the very thin counterparts, specifically that of the #4 and #3.

I'm seeing a lot more roundness in the Belux, Inmenso, #2, Tainos, Delicioso, and Glorioso. In that order.

[CanuckSARTech]

I'll preface the following statement by saying that this is very much an exception to the rule. Personally, I think thicker gauge LGC stands out more than the very thin counterparts, specifically that of the #4 and #3.

I'm seeing a lot more roundness in the Belux, Inmenso, #2, Tainos, Delicioso, and Glorioso. In that order.

Boldness and strength perhaps. But, IMO, not "complexity" - not the range of flavours.

The MdO line is very light and fragrant, but there is a plethora of aromas and flavours that all intersect there. For me, the Tainos (those others you mentioned are RE's, a different ballgame, IMO) has the floral and light grass aspect that's inherent within the MdO line, but it's more in your face and potent, and while it may be stronger, I don't find that the complexity of overlapping flavours is there.

Again, this is in my opinion / experience. But I find that this was a perfect example to throw out there - too many people confuse strength and boldness with complexity of flavour.

[SCgarman]

In my experience the first vitola of H Upmann I ever bought was a box of petit coronas. I was very impressed with them right off the bat. I was gifted an Upmann Magnum 50 by a fellow botl and could not believe how disappointing the larger vitola was. The flavors were more subtle and actually less complex than the petit corona size. I actually became bored smoking it after the first half was gone. Just a testament as to how good the smaller cigars from Cuba really are. Maybe the pyramide size holds up better than the Mag 50, but I will definitely not spend the big money on these.

[dangolf18]

Nope.

[mk05]

Mag 50 is just a crappy cigar. Now Monarchs, SWs, and Lonsdales on the other hand...

Every cigar is different, but rule of thumb is the minutos/marevas represent the marca best.

[Dimmers]

If we are generalising, my preference sits with smaller ring gauges, as:

1. The wrapper is a higher proportion of the overall leaf in a smaller ring gauge, so for those who feel that the wrapper adds a greater tasting element to the experience over and above its ratio to leaf overall (ala spices on a meal), then this is a good thing.

2. larger ring gauges have a higher propertion of ligero to overall blend. For me power doesnt equal complexity

But agree that every cigar, every blend is different.Except NCs.. all crap.

[Dbone]

I will take a step further and say that I 'believe' that there is in optimum level of the amounts of certain tobaccos verses air flow created by the smoker. I cannot prove this. If this is the case then hundreds of years of tobacco development and experience gave us the ubiquitous nature of some sizes of cigars. It has taken Tabacuba but a few decades to destroy that history and the evedence of it!

-the Pig

I like the way you put this, the first part relating the optimum combustion equaling optimum flavor. A bit subjective I understand, there are those who like the bitter crappy coffee left in the bottom of the pot for 8 hours.

But does more volume of smoke mean more flavor? When talking in the context of flavors tasted (food and drink), rarely does more mean better, actually less is more in most regards for those who want to taste. However, more and big is marketed so much better to the masses. "Come here and eat The Old 96er" is a lot better than "Come here and eat The Old 6er".

This conversation has really opened my eyes more so to the communities approval of the smaller RG. Im going to hunt me down some ERDM DT too. And I need to get me some LGC. Deeper in the rabbit hole we go.

[PigFish]

I like the way you put this, the first part relating the optimum combustion equaling optimum flavor. A bit subjective I understand, there are those who like the bitter crappy coffee left in the bottom of the pot for 8 hours.

But does more volume of smoke mean more flavor? When talking in the context of flavors tasted (food and drink), rarely does more mean better, actually less is more in most regards for those who want to taste. However, more and big is marketed so much better to the masses. "Come here and eat The Old 96er" is a lot better than "Come here and eat The Old 6er".

This conversation has really opened my eyes more so to the communities approval of the smaller RG. Im going to hunt me down some ERDM DT too. And I need to get me some LGC. Deeper in the rabbit hole we go.

I like large volumes of smoke, but that is only a visual reference. Remember, that water vapor in air, looks like smoke too! Clouds are a prime example!!

I have found that some extremely tight drawing cigar with little smoke have created unbelievably satisfying smoking experiences. I would be guessing as to the cause, but I do believe it has to something to do with rate of combustion and perhaps completeness of combustion. Loose cigars, burn hot and fast and often taste lousy! I think this is also a combustion rate issue likely combined with the lack of ligero and seco, slower burning tobacco, compounding the taste and smoke rate problem. I am guessing, I know!

Copious amounts of smoke are not necessary.

I do really believe that there are optimum cigar blends, related to cigar size. I have to believe that the once ubiquitous nature of 42 ring cigars was more about cigar taste performance than fashion. Fillers are just that; a means to fool the consumer to thinking he is getting a greater amount of the the commodity that he/she is buying. In the case of cigars, I think the excess filler does more than sell them to foolish people. It actually ruins the smoking performance of many of these cigars, generally. JMHO

Cheers. -Piggy

[Dbone]

Fillers are just that; a means to fool the consumer to thinking he is getting a greater amount of the the commodity that he/she is buying. In the case of cigars, I think the excess filler does more than sell them to foolish people. It actually ruins the smoking performance of many of these cigars, generally. JMHO

Cheers. -Piggy

I get what you're saying. A mouth full of smoke is a mouth full of smoke... same surface area.

I've been thinking about this some and how does this sound. Larger RG cigars require more filler (ingredients) while smaller RG require less. This leads me to believe a larger RG flavor is more of a blend... a collage of ingredients trying to meet a desired profile. Smaller RG requires high quality leaf since there is less blending, and the flavor can be more pronounced because of this.

[PigFish]

I get what you're saying. A mouth full of smoke is a mouth full of smoke... same surface area.

I've been thinking about this some and how does this sound. Larger RG cigars require more filler (ingredients) while smaller RG require less. This leads me to believe a larger RG flavor is more of a blend... a collage of ingredients trying to meet a desired profile. Smaller RG requires high quality leaf since there is less blending, and the flavor can be more pronounced because of this.

I have not really alluded to "quality" so I thought I might clarify that. Quality in my context relates to a personal smoking experience, not the ingredients used in the cigars themselves. I have no doubt that the same tobaccos are largely used across the board. I mean why produce substandard tobacco unless it costs considerably less to do so? Even I don't think that Tabacuba has stepped to that level yet!

I am talking the physical limitations of the human mouth as it represents a means to displace air. Much like ones lungs to blow out so many candles on a birthday cake, ones mouth represents a volume of air that it can displace. Displacement of smokers mouths has to have an average volume. That volume is known to someone I am sure.

Now smoking styles differ with the smoker but there is likely an average amount of air that the average smoker uses to stoke his cigar fire. That volume of air is what I am talking about.

As most know, when one increases volume, rate of flow drops. As the rate of flow of air drops there is a risk of lesser combustion. Now I must qualify this a bit and I will back it up with some empirical data. As an individual smoker, I have found more burn problems with larger ring cigars. This makes sense to me as it takes more air to burn them at a consistent rate of cigar-inch/minute. This is not a problem generally to an extent but it makes me think that as you add thicker, slower burning ligero or seco, there may be a point where this tobacco extends out the end of the cigar and does not burn at all. If, in fact filler tobacco burns easiest (first), then one must limit the amount of seco/ligero in these large ring cigars to get them to burn properly for the average smoker.

The question then becomes one of quantity, quantity burned per second, quantity burned per CC of air, and finally the ultimate temperature of the burn. If one cannot get enough air flow to burn the best tasting tobacco, or enough air flow to burn the best tasting tobacco at the rate sufficient for a complete burn, the taste of the cigar suffers.

This is of course is idle banter; an academic argument conceived out of my personal experience with cigars large and small and some knowledge of physics, tobacco and human physiology. Nothing that I have written about this relationship short of know axioms of physics from the above, can be expressed as facts; just as my personal opinion.

-

[CaptainQuintero]

There's also a belief that the larger the RG the more amount of volado leaf used which gives the creamy nature to a cigar but nothing much else, so is used as a packing agent to bulk up the size of a cigar. I guess a comparison would be milk in coffee; just the right amount makes a really nice creamy coffee, but too much waters down the flavours/complexity of a cup.

I think...just something I read a few years back

[ramon_cojones]

I am always disappointed by rgs larger than 50 yet I find rass and d4s are beautifully complex with age. I disagree with low smoke output as gratifying however.