Define complexity

[Ghabanos]

A while back there was a question posed regarding creamy or creaminess in a cigar. That was really helpful.

Now I ask the question: what does it mean to say that a cigar is complex?

Btw - I did a quick search for complexity and didn't get anything so if this has already been done please post links for my viewing pleasure...thnx

[Wil]

What a great question!

I have no idea to be honest. Some people seem to use 'complexity' to refer to variation within a cigar. But I'm not sure the two are the same.

Will be interested to hear people's thoughts...

[PigFish]

Complexity... there is no simple answer!

Sorry could not resist!!! -LOL -

[Wil]

Complexity? I'd explain it to you, but you wouldn't understand.

[Fuzz]

Complexity is the term you use when you have absolutely no clue about a cigar, while everyone around you is describing flavours you can't detect.

[shrink]

Come on guys. There are three aspects to complexity. The first refers to the number of distinct flavors that one can discern when the smoke is held briefly in the mouth. The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel. If the smoke exhibits floral or other qualities, that adds to the complexity. Finally, complexity may also be defined as the changes in flavor that the cigar exhibits over the length of the smoke. This has been referred to as "the journey". Add 'em all up, and you can guage the degree of complexity.

Two of the most complex cigars I know: the La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No. 1 and the Partagas Serie du Connaisseur No. 1.

[Michel1968]

I'll give it a shot...

Complexity to me is the outcome of a sum made from a whole array of different taste markers.

The outcome is more often than not a 'single taste' (no real dominant marker(s) in or 'surrounding' it) which is very, very hard to describe but when trying to analyzing it, one is able to come up with different 'isolated' components that have lead to that single taste. Even when not being able to analyze, at least there's some kind acknowledgement to the fact the components do exist...

Keep in mind (to me) complexity is something different than evolution, weak or lean taste or plain light bodied although complexity and a light body often gang together.

i.e. I think the H. Upmann Lonsdale is a complex cigar (as so greatly described by Pig Fish - My only experience is with examples from 2000 smoked during 2009/2010 so I can't tell for any other vintage). At first is seems to have faded during the years, very light and a plain singular taste. After a while this taste completely covers the mouth and starts to show a subtle impression of dried herbs, suddenly you realize the herbs are carried by evenly subtle notes of tobacco and cedar before finding out all are kept and hold together with a fresh impression of a very faint acidic touch which might be lemon, or is it lime, or orange zest. I could continue for a while...

Dang! hard to describe such a subjective subject in a 'foreign' language

[Tyemv]

Complexity is the term you use when you have absolutely no clue about a cigar, while everyone around you is describing flavours you can't detect.

Haha! Awesome.

[CBL]

For me, complexity is simply when a cigar keeps you on your toes. Whenever a cigar keeps you guessing and keeps you interested, I consider it to have "complexity"

[khomeinist]

Shrink's post pretty much sums it up. I would add that the most complex cigars for me vary in taste subtlety from draw to draw. Flavors weave their way across the palate and through the subconscious.

He listed two of my personal favorites as the most complex cigars. I would add the ERDM GdE, RG Lonsdale, Cohiba Siglo III, HDM DD, Trinidad Fundadores, PL Lonsdale, and QDO GC.

Those also happen to be most of my favorite cigars, for what it is worth.

[Ginseng]

Come on guys. There are three aspects to complexity. The first refers to the number of distinct flavors that one can discern when the smoke is held briefly in the mouth. The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel. If the smoke exhibits floral or other qualities, that adds to the complexity. Finally, complexity may also be defined as the changes in flavor that the cigar exhibits over the length of the smoke. This has been referred to as "the journey". Add 'em all up, and you can guage the degree of complexity.

Two of the most complex cigars I know: the La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No. 1 and the Partagas Serie du Connaisseur No. 1.

That...is the best breakdown on complexity I've ever read. Clear and understandable. I'd further add that one can further think of complexity from a non-temporal perspective (shrink's first and second types) and in the temporal dimension. That is, the image and perception of the cigar at any given time and how the image changes in time. But this really doesn't add to his eloquent exposition.

Wilkey

[OZCUBAN]

Come on guys. There are three aspects to complexity. The first refers to the number of distinct flavors that one can discern when the smoke is held briefly in the mouth. The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel. If the smoke exhibits floral or other qualities, that adds to the complexity. Finally, complexity may also be defined as the changes in flavor that the cigar exhibits over the length of the smoke. This has been referred to as "the journey". Add 'em all up, and you can guage the degree of complexity.

Two of the most complex cigars I know: the La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No. 1 and the Partagas Serie du Connaisseur No. 1.

In a nutshellShrink well said

And today's word is plugged this should be interesting

OZ

[Puros Y Vino]

Without reading other's answers, this is what complexity in a cigar means to me.

As many of us are acclimatized to critiquing our cigars in "thirds" we are looking for evolution in taste from foot to head. To me complexity is when the cigar offers up varying flavours with every draw. I might start off with three solid draws that give up sweetness, then followed by a drier, earthy note, and then over to something savoury. if the cigar, at every third is offering up a wide range of flavours, I would deem it to be "complex". The complete opposite of monotonous. I've had my share of cigars that were 1 to 3 trick ponies.

[CaptainQuintero]

For me, multiple layers of flavour and a change of flavours as you progress along the cigar.

[Colt45]

Come on guys. There are three aspects to complexity. The first refers to the number of distinct flavors that one can discern when the smoke is held briefly in the mouth. The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel. If the smoke exhibits floral or other qualities, that adds to the complexity. Finally, complexity may also be defined as the changes in flavor that the cigar exhibits over the length of the smoke. This has been referred to as "the journey". Add 'em all up, and you can guage the degree of complexity.

[Omskakas]

Complexity... there is no simple answer!

One does not simply...

...Define complexity.

[isa]

Very interesting discussion

So some of us seem to agree that if there is evolution of flavours in a cigar , then it can be deemed complex.

Shrink , ur answer is much appreciated

Ghabanos, great question , thanks

[Dbone]

The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel.

Shrink, your explanation was spot on. This, your second reference, is why I love a good Habano.

[canadianbeaver]

For me, multiple layers of flavour and a change of flavours as you progress along the cigar.

Loving this short and sweet answer. I would also add that it is the difference between a NC cigar and a CC... and why my collection changed to 90% of the latter.

Lisa

[Ghabanos]

Complexity... there is no simple answer!

Sorry could not resist!!! -LOL -

Mr. Pig.... Love the pic in your sig...lol

[Ghabanos]

Come on guys. There are three aspects to complexity. The first refers to the number of distinct flavors that one can discern when the smoke is held briefly in the mouth. The second refers to the different sensations and tastes that one experiences during each draw and exhale cycle. For example, one might experience hot peppery spice on the tongue during the draw, some sweet spice in the mouth, and a finish (aftertaste) of dark caramel. If the smoke exhibits floral or other qualities, that adds to the complexity. Finally, complexity may also be defined as the changes in flavor that the cigar exhibits over the length of the smoke. This has been referred to as "the journey". Add 'em all up, and you can guage the degree of complexity. Two of the most complex cigars I know: the La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or No. 1 and the Partagas Serie du Connaisseur No. 1.

That...is the best breakdown on complexity I've ever read. Clear and understandable. I'd further add that one can further think of complexity from a non-temporal perspective (shrink's first and second types) and in the temporal dimension. That is, the image and perception of the cigar at any given time and how the image changes in time. But this really doesn't add to his eloquent exposition.Wilkey

Love this discussion...

Thanks for all the input. My thinking was in the right direction, but was unable verbalized it....

Wiley for some reason temporal/ non-temporal clicks for me

[Ravenwood]

I would also add that just because a cigar is not complex, that is simple or one-dimensional, does not mean that it's bad.

I would consider something like the Parti 898 as an example. I think this is a pretty straight forward spicy cigar and I love them! Whereas on the other hand you have cigars such as the Siglo VI Tubo or Padron 45th Maduro which I believe are very complex. Love those also...

[dB69]

The quantity and quality of the following details in a cigar defines a complex cigar to me.

- The more different flavours

- The more different flavours layered with each other

- The more comfortable changes from one to another flavour

- The more comfortable changes between flavours on different layers

I'm not sure if this is well described at all, but that's how I think.

I agree that a not complex cigar may be excellent, depends of the mood of the smoker.

[PigFish]

Do you guys really want to know complex?

Do this. Search for one of my posts. Read the post.

Answer this question.

Did you understand what I was talking about? If yes, then I was joking!!! If no, then you have a 'complex.' Shrik can help you resolve it though!-LOL

Sorry agiain... Just having to much fun with this topic!!!

-

[dB69]

Do you guys really want to know complex?

Do this. Search for one of my posts. Read the post.

Answer this question.

Did you understand what I was talking about? If yes, then I was joking!!! If no, then you have a 'complex.' Shrik can help you resolve it though!-LOL

Sorry agiain... Just having to much fun with this topic!!!

-

or - that's the question...

Well, talking about complexity, would you like me to explain it in Finnish?