So you have inadvertently sold or traded a box of fakes? As the seller/trader, how would you handle it?

[BoliDan]

Get ahead of it, don't try to sweep it under the rug. notify customers and let them know if they may have been affected or not and offer refunds or replacements to those who were. Include a solution in the communication on how you have taken measures to not let it happen again.

[Ken Gargett]

12 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Scenario

"You read the email again and automatically go onto the first of the 5 stages : denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance

Something that you have sold/traded or something that you wanted to sell has been identified as fake. The near irrefuteable proof is in front of you. What do you do next? 

You honestly didn't know. There was no intention to defraud someone else. You have received the money/traded goods. 

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

The buyer/customer is screaming blue murder and wants his money back. You have long ago spent it on a private emergency. You can't put together the money at this point or replace the cigars until the original vendor comes good.  You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"  The platform is asking for details of the original seller and has temprarilly suspended your account. Should you disclose the original seller?. He may be an innocent as well? 

You know that the "jungle drums are beating" and word is spreading. Clocks ticking."

 

If this was the position you found yourself in....... what do you do?.  

 

"The near irrefuteable proof is in front of you". 

so where does that leave everyone? if it is irrefutable, that is one thing. if it is not, entirely another. and this is like being pregnant. it is irrefutable or it is not. no degrees. the onus for a crime is beyond reasonable doubt. 'near irrefutable' is not beyond reasonable doubt. 

if it is not, i am wanting evidence that it is. when i have that, then a different thing. although meanwhile, i am chasing the bloke who sold the stuff to me. 

 

10 hours ago, wathabanos said:

If the proof is in the pudding, then it isn’t slander. If the seller I purchased from didn’t get back with me, when the proof was in the pudding…I’d want to ensure no one else makes the same mistake of purchasing from this seller, whomever they might be. 

you need to be extremely careful with slander/libel/defamation. it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. don't assume that truth is always a defence. it is not in some jurisdictions - only became one in our region a few years back. before that you needed more. everywhere is different and if you dump on someone with these sort of allegations, you might end up losing a hell of a lot more than a box of cigars. 

 

i have a question. 

is this based on a real life situation you have recently encountered? names changed, of course. 

[Lamboinee]

You gotta be honest. It is what it is. I would hate for someone to get a wrong impression of any cigar not to mention I wouldn't want to mislead anyone. 

But, I always tell my buddies that I do splits/trades/etc. with that "if these are fake, we are all in it together. I bought some too, so I'm screwed if you are screwed. We are entering an unknown world and I'll do my best to verify everything, but if it goes south....it goes south. Tough titty. " In those instances, I would share the truth and expect everyone to abide by the deal. If, for some reason, the disclaimer hasn't been given, then I would have to eat it. 

It helps when you aren't profiting off anyone and just splitting costs. I think that takes the the "taint of the spoiled tree" out of the transaction. 

 

 

[Edicion]

As other have said: make things right with the buyer. Work out a plan / schedule with the buyer for what they think would be a fair compensation. Replacement box or money refund. Get the fake box back at your expense.

Inform the platform of the seller's details if this individual does not come back within a reasonable time. He may be a victim too, so he needs to a chance to get back to his source. Also. You should get your money/replacement back or suck it up as a lesson.

The platform should, in case the seller does not wish / is able to refund the innocent buyer, take their responsibility and make the buyer whole. At least, for this scenario.

Unfortunately this problem is likely to become more common and I think one way of mitigating that is to actually disclose the where the box is from exactly, even provide business name / individual as far as legally possible. I can think of a couple of vendors (one was outed recently), that I wouldn't want to buy any box from, and certainly wouldn't want to buy one of their boxes from a third party platform either. 

[wathabanos]

20 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

you need to be extremely careful with slander/libel/defamation. it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. don't assume that truth is always a defence. it is not in some jurisdictions - only became one in our region a few years back. before that you needed more. everywhere is different and if you dump on someone with these sort of allegations, you might end up losing a hell of a lot more than a box of cigars. 

Part of my thought to cover this was the original sticks, the investigative work that the ‘buyer’ gives which subsequently proved to I, the seller, that the sticks were illegitimate coupled along with any other proof that the buyer or those they may have been in touch with have unearthed. Essentially a preponderance of proof or evidence that the seller where I obtained the sticks in this scenario was indeed selling fakes. Again I point back to a very recent situation that was originally posted on another platform where they were found to be selling fake CoRos, where a preponderance of evidence was given against said merchant. In this case it’s an individual, but in my eyes they are one in the same. At the end of the day, a company is owned by someone.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

i have a question. 

is this based on a real life situation you have recently encountered? names changed, of course. 

Ken, the situation as I have put forward in the original post is a regular enough occurence these days. 95-99 /100 contentious calls are thwarted. However vigilance and education  is ongoing and key. 

When things go awry however, charachter is key. It can be an eyopener. 

 

[PigFish]

Perhaps you sold legit cigars and the buyer did the switch….

Who is the final arbiter on authenticity?

I want to know if there is zero risk in secondary market speculation?

 I have seen more than one person accused of selling fakes. What if the jury is wrong???

Food for thought!.

[LizardGizmo]

I like to sleep well at night, so I would immediately be promising the buyer that I would refund and then begin my chase-down of wherever I sourced them from. If I was unable to secure funds from original source and my bank account was at $0, I would sell other boxes to provide the refund to my customer. (Is this breaking the refund rules? )

I’ve been on the other side of this (Montefortuna saga) and it doesn’t feel very good.

My reputation means more to me than anything, so I won’t put that at risk for any dollar amount, especially when it comes to transacting cigars with people in a hobby I deeply respect.

[Bijan]

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

I would almost certainly have not resold a box of cigars bought via a private sale unless I had smoked one or more of the cigars myself and was sure the cigars were not fake.

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

The buyer/customer is screaming blue murder and wants his money back. You have long ago spent it on a private emergency. You can't put together the money at this point or replace the cigars until the original vendor comes good.

I can't conceive of a situation where I wouldn't have enough money to make this right. I think the most expensive boxes I have bought were around $1k. If I can't put $1k together in an emergency... (Even if the box ended up selling for many times the original price, I'd still like to think that I'd be able to raise the cash within a reasonable amount of time, even if via a loan).

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"  The platform is asking for details of the original seller and has temprarilly suspended your account. Should you disclose the original seller?. He may be an innocent as well? 

Given 1 (I shouldn't have been selling 3rd hand cigars I wasn't literally 100% sure of) and 2 (I should have a 1+ box of cigars' worth rainy day fund on hand), I think I'd have no business selling cigars online/at auction anyways.

To date I have sold one box of cigars. It was a partial box. I had smoked all the missing cigars. I regret selling the box now, but it was a good experience to gauge how I would feel and which cigars I would miss if I sold them and which I would not. I am thinking of selling a handful of other boxes (ones I am less attached to than the box I sold).

[Greenhorn2]

16 hours ago, Bijan said:

I would almost certainly have not resold a box of cigars bought via a private sale unless I had smoked one or more of the cigars myself and was sure the cigars were not fake.

I can't conceive of a situation where I wouldn't have enough money to make this right. I think the most expensive boxes I have bought were around $1k. If I can't put $1k together in an emergency... (Even if the box ended up selling for many times the original price, I'd still like to think that I'd be able to raise the cash within a reasonable amount of time, even if via a loan).

Given 1 (I shouldn't have been selling 3rd hand cigars I wasn't literally 100% sure of) and 2 (I should have a 1+ box of cigars' worth rainy day fund on hand), I think I'd have no business selling cigars online/at auction anyways.

To date I have sold one box of cigars. It was a partial box. I had smoked all the missing cigars. I regret selling the box now, but it was a good experience to gauge how I would feel and which cigars I would miss if I sold them and which I would not. I am thinking of selling a handful of other boxes (ones I am less attached to than the box I sold).

Kind of with Bijan on the part of not having $500-$1000 emergency fund. If I don't have a grand in my savings fund then what the hell am I doing smoking Cuban cigars? Got to get those priorities straight. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:49 AM, El Presidente said:

Scenario

"You read the email again and automatically go onto the first of the 5 stages : denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance

Something that you have sold/traded or something that you wanted to sell has been identified as fake. The near irrefuteable proof is in front of you. What do you do next? 

You honestly didn't know. There was no intention to defraud someone else. You have received the money/traded goods. 

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

The buyer/customer is screaming blue murder and wants his money back. You have long ago spent it on a private emergency. You can't put together the money at this point or replace the cigars until the original vendor comes good.  You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"  The platform is asking for details of the original seller and has temprarilly suspended your account. Should you disclose the original seller?. He may be an innocent as well? 

You know that the "jungle drums are beating" and word is spreading. Clocks ticking."

 

If this was the position you found yourself in....... what do you do?.  

 

So a few things here; there are plenty of hobbyists that are spending more than what they probably should be on cigars, relative to their income. This is no different than dozens of other hobbies.

With that said: this should be a stark lesson to everyone not to spend the money from a sale before the 'dust has settled'. I don't and will never buy cigars from private sellers because I trust adverse, but in this hypothetical scenario if I had and the private seller's email suddenly stopped working that would certainly put me in a place of understanding where the gap occurred. I live in the real world after all. 

Someone already said, if you don't have the money to make it right then you are probably going to have to sell some other boxes to make up for it.  That's part of the responsibility of reselling unfortunately.

[MrBirdman]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:59 AM, Bijan said:

I can't conceive of a situation where I wouldn't have enough money to make this right. I think the most expensive boxes I have bought were around $1k. If I can't put $1k together in an emergency... (Even if the box ended up selling for many times the original price, I'd still like to think that I'd be able to raise the cash within a reasonable amount of time, even if via a loan).

I concur.  If you can’t keep $1000 of scratch on hand at all times you certainly shouldn’t be buying Cuban cigars. 

[MrFolgers]

Quote

I concur.  If you can’t keep $1000 of scratch on hand at all times you certainly shouldn’t be buying Cuban cigars. 

Ok... but what about $1000 worth of Gurkhas???

[LordAnubis]

I see it from another perspective. If I BOUGHT the fakes. And the seller didn’t know they were fakes. I would not put it on the seller. I’d let the seller chase up with the purchaser and if it all works out with refund etc in the end then I’m happy to pass it down the chain. Otherwise. I bought something. Turned out to be fake. My loss. I wouldn’t pin it on the person I bought it from. 

If I was the seller in this. Then I’d work to get the person their money back if it was a payment plan or whatever I guess or trade them other cigars I may have etc. Shit deal  for me but it is what it is. 

[rcarlson]

Protect your rep.   Refund, chase down seller.  Don't "out."  If you eat it, you eat it.  

[SmokyFontaine]

You cover return shipping, full refund and apologize profusely. Borrow money from a friend, put some expenses on a credit card and carry debt. You sold counterfeit merchandise. On purpose or by accident is irrelevant with respect to doing right by the person who paid you in good faith.