So you have inadvertently sold or traded a box of fakes? As the seller/trader, how would you handle it?

[El Presidente]

Scenario

"You read the email again and automatically go onto the first of the 5 stages : denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance

Something that you have sold/traded or something that you wanted to sell has been identified as fake. The near irrefuteable proof is in front of you. What do you do next? 

You honestly didn't know. There was no intention to defraud someone else. You have received the money/traded goods. 

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

The buyer/customer is screaming blue murder and wants his money back. You have long ago spent it on a private emergency. You can't put together the money at this point or replace the cigars until the original vendor comes good.  You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"  The platform is asking for details of the original seller and has temprarilly suspended your account. Should you disclose the original seller?. He may be an innocent as well? 

You know that the "jungle drums are beating" and word is spreading. Clocks ticking."

 

If this was the position you found yourself in....... what do you do?.  

 

[PrairieSmoke]

In this scenario I’m not dragging the source unless I’m certain that they knowingly sold fakes or weren’t willing to make it right.
 

If they were unaware I’d expect them to do the same work with the person they acquired the cigars from. 

It only creates more victims if you call someone out without any investigation. 

[El Presidente]

De

9 minutes ago, PrairieSmoke said:

In this scenario I’m not dragging the source unless I’m certain that they knowingly sold fakes or weren’t willing to make it right.
 

If they were unaware I’d expect them to do the same work with the person they acquired the cigars from. 

It only creates more victims if you call someone out without any investigation. 

Devils advocate. 

 

Assume lack of authenticity is a given. Unequivocal. 

 

 

[DaBoot]

Tough scenario, initially I would mention where I bought them from( if it is a business) , but ultimately the burden is on myself. I sold a fake item. I cannot pass the buck to someone else.  My transaction was invalid, and as such I need to remedy it. If I do not have money to refund,,, well who knows then. But I am not throwing the previous seller under the bus.
  

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, DaBoot said:

Tough scenario, initially I would mention where I bought them from( if it is a business) , 

I made it a bit tougher on purpose. If it was a business, then there is an easy out. 

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

[99call]

serial numbers.............bands.......boxes.........these things are all sort of stone age if we really think about it.  Knowing people is always going to be far more a powerful protection than the security measures a communist country can afford.

If you are going to buy extremely valuable cigars as an investment .........buy from people who have a 100% track record in the industry........they exist.    their names are Rob, Rob, And Ravi

If you are going to buy from another collector, it's your responsibility to ask, and if they don't provide you with what you want to hear....walk away. 

All that said, there are a huge amount of idiots in the antique / aged cigar industry.   As a direct comparison lets look at antique ceramics. The practice of airbrushing false glazes over fixed cracks has been going on for decades.  It's not the sellers responsibility to provide these condition issues, it's the BUYERS!! responsibility to ask for a condition survey.

If some idiot buys a box of 1890 cigars, and us unhappy that they are a 'bit flat' when smoking......that is not a comment on how lifeless and dead the cigars are...........rather their new owners brain cells

Is it too much to expect people to spend a little bit of time to work out what they are doing...........before they jump in balls deep........then start crying the water is hot?

[99call]

45 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Should you disclose the original seller?. He may be an innocent as well?

if sellers have nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a problem, even the most passed over flipped box is only likely to have passed hands 4-5 time tops.  If everyone is honest and genuine, the info should be readily available.  Ultimately everyone should be motivated to clear their name, and get to the bottom of the matter. 

[chris12381]

You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"

That's not a thought that would cross my mind.  My only concern would be getting square with the person to which I inadvertently sold the fugazis and salvaging what was left of my reputation.  

Clear, concise and honest communication with my buyer is going to be the only thing that will do anything to save what is left of a reputation at this point as well as buy the necessary time to explain why it is necessary for me to contact the person who sold me the box so that I can do my due diligence before I would ever consider publicly naming or shaming someone who, as you point out, could also be a victim.  They also deserve the opportunity to be provided with the same "near irrefutable proof" as I was, know that there are people who are furious and that I've chosen to keep their identity quiet (for a fixed amount of time) so that they have time to research the matter and provide the community with a response.  At that point, it's really up to them to play ball.  I'd be crossing my fingers that their "solid reputation" was built on a bunch of lies and they turn out to be a total scumbag.  

As far as making the other party whole, your scenario makes that one tough.  It's going to come down to a lot of mea culpas, being super honest about how badly your screwed up, asking them to understand your financial situation and working something out with the party - and then sticking to that.  

[Nevrknow]

Just now, chris12381 said:

You think "should you even have to?"  "I am a victim as well"

Make it good and suck it up. If after all I have learned I got burned? So be it. I'll take the hit. I would of course try to revert back to where it all began but that's a different post. As far as the " here and now" I will keep my reputation intact. Along with the fact of being a business man, I sleep very well at night knowing I don't have to pull fast ones on people to  succeed.  I couldn't take the mental hit of being " that guy" or stand to think anyone thought of me as THAT guy.

[Michael303]

18 minutes ago, Nevrknow said:

Make it good and suck it up. If after all I have learned I got burned? So be it. I'll take the hit. I would of course try to revert back to where it all began but that's a different post. As far as the " here and now" I will keep my reputation intact. Along with the fact of being a business man, I sleep very well at night knowing I don't have to pull fast ones on people to  succeed.  I couldn't take the mental hit of being " that guy" or stand to think anyone thought of me as THAT guy.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Chas.Alpha]

On the other hand, you could always go to South Beach in Miami and sell them for 2x what you lost. After all, your cousin works at El Laguito outside of Havana…😀

[Chas.Alpha]

Seriously, the “solid guy” that you got them from needs to make it right…🤔

Or I’d make his reputation not so “solid.”

[wathabanos]

I check every box that comes in but before that I verify the trader, vendor, or whomever’s reputation before making the purchase. Even then, like in your scenario given, anything is possible. There have been some extremely high level fakes in the industry that were near impossible to detect. At the end of the day, I’ll side with most of the comments I’ve already read and deal with the latest transaction first and foremost. I would refund the buyer and pay for the return shipping of the item along with the time and investigation into determining the authenticity, or in this case the lack thereof, by rewarding them with another box but this time…the real deal. This would not only be in an effort to salvage and repair what was left of my rep, but to make it right. That is what is most important.

If the trader, private sale, business or whatever didn’t get back to me in a reasonable amount of time (think reasonable in terms of cc shipping to the states reasonable) then I would most certainly take action and advise others in the circle of what was found. If the proof is in the pudding, then it isn’t slander. If the seller I purchased from didn’t get back with me, when the proof was in the pudding…I’d want to ensure no one else makes the same mistake of purchasing from this seller, whomever they might be. My misfortune should never be passed onto someone else.

[El Presidente]

30 minutes ago, wathabanos said:

If the trader, private sale, business or whatever didn’t get back to me in a reasonable amount of time (think reasonable in terms of cc shipping to the states reasonable) then I would most certainly take action and advise others in the circle of what was found. If the proof is in the pudding, then it isn’t slander. If the seller I purchased from didn’t get back with me, when the proof was in the pudding…I’d want to ensure no one else makes the same mistake of purchasing from this seller, whomever they might be. My misfortune should never be passed onto someone else.

You have hit a good point. 

Disclosing the source is important. Even better, the source putting his hands up and "self disclosing"....then identifying root and branch of the situation. 

All innocents within the chain have a "duty of care" to those in the transaction loop and to the general cigar community as well.  However, they need to be on solid ground before impinging on reputations. 

[MrBirdman]

Maybe it’s law school, but I see this as fairly straightforward: 

- If you sold the box on a platform, you follow their T&C if you want to continue using it. If the value of using that platform (and possibly others if info is shared) is less for you than the box, I suppose you can walk away. But that’s likely a false economy.

- i see no problem in revealing your source, unless you have a personal relationship you wish to protect. Part of having a “solid reputation” in this hobby is taking responsibility for mistakes, screw ups, and yes fakes. I’m not trusting anyone who won’t, at the very least, own up to selling cigars which turned out to be fake. A well-earned reputation should survive the chips being down, otherwise it’s misleading.

 

[wathabanos]

10 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

You have hit a good point. 

Disclosing the source is important. Even better, the source putting his hands up and "self disclosing"....then identifying root and branch of the situation. 

All innocents within the chain have a "duty of care" to those in the transaction loop and to the general cigar community as well.  However, they need to be on solid ground before impinging on reputations. 

Agreed. If the proof and the fakes are obtained back from the last buyer in the chain, in this scenario the one whom I’ve refunded and sent a real box to free of charge, and the seller I obtained the cigars from in the first place hasn’t responded in a reasonable amount of time then I would give them one last opportunity to own the mistake themselves, before putting the word out to the community. Is that a risk? Perhaps, but I’m always in favor of giving someone a chance to make it right themselves. In the end, I could be out the price of the box, plus the price of another box, but my reputation wouldn’t be soiled. If every ‘seller’ worked this box back to origin, someone would be exposed and that someone would hopefully then be out of the business and we’d be left with one less avenue of illegitimate goods making its way into collectors hands. Wishful thinking? A certain ‘fancy website’ vendor that had a similar incident recently comes to mind…

[MrBirdman]

15 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

However, they need to be on solid ground before impinging on reputations. 

Yes, while this hypo presumes the cigars are fake there’s often not such certainty. In that situation, you need to give the original seller a reasonable opportunity to respond. At the end of the day, though, as long as it’s being hashed out in private that seller shouldn’t have an issue being contacted about the authenticity of cigars he sold by either the buyer or the platform.

If the guy is truly reputable, notifying him could avoid his selling five more boxes of fakes. It’s hard to impute the duty of reasonable care if he’s selling fakes a reasonably knowledgeable owner couldn’t detect.

[DaBoot]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I made it a bit tougher on purpose. If it was a business, then there is an easy out. 

You purchased the box from a private sale. The guy is well known and has a solid reputation. He was selling plenty of these at the time. You have sent him an email but it hasn't been returned at this stage. 

I wouldn’t out the source I bought from publicly, I would take the loss as a life lesson. I’ve had plenty, and expect plenty more along the way👍🏻

[El Presidente]

13 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Yes, while this hypo presumes the cigars are fake there’s often not such certainty.

I think these days there are enough referral sources to determine "beyond reasonable doubt". We are not talking about the bloke who is going to blow the lid on a seller because "the taste is not quite right". 

[ha_banos]

I'd never sell on a box I've bought privately. Not that I don't trust the source because I've been sure they are legit first. Far as I can comprehend. But it's principle.

[MrBirdman]

15 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I think these days there are enough referral sources to determine "beyond reasonable doubt". We are not talking about the bloke who is going to blow the lid on a seller because "the taste is not quite right". 

No what I meant was that the average buyer/seller, even one who’s knowledgeable about Cuban cigars in general, might not have the tools to positively identify a fake (if so, why did he buy them?). Naturally, if a respected auction platform says they’re fake, you can take them at their word. Even if I was independently 99.9% sure I would still seek independent verification before using the F word. 

Having heard some of your stories about how BR spotted this or that fake, I’m confident there are some that would get past close scrutiny by myself and many other knowledgeable FOH members. 

[Chibearsv]

Priority 1 - I’d make it right with my buyer, however I could arrange it with him

Prioriy 2 - I’d try to re-coup from the seller. 

I wouldn’t give any energy to “outing” the seller but wouldn’t be hesitant to breaking bad on them in private whether they made me whole or not.  If I lose, it’s on me. 

[El Presidente]

44 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Naturally, if a respected auction platform says they’re fake, you can take them at their word. Even if I was independently 99.9% sure I would still seek independent verification before using the F word. 

Having heard some of your stories about how BR spotted this or that fake, I’m confident there are some that would get past close scrutiny by myself and many other knowledgeable FOH members. 

The BR team is excellent but trust me, fakes have snuck through there as well. On a daily basis 4 to 5 listings are rejected simply because they do not meet the requisite level of provenance. 

However, sophistication of fakes (particularly top end Marques) is a moving feast. Teams need to stay on top of it and the work of guys around the world such as Andy, Greg, Dan and others is pivotal. Global stakeholders and hobbyists share information to minimise exposure to fakes. It is a shame that HSA and distributors are not as forthcoming with information. 

Once fakes are determined, the original source of supply is an important piece of the information. The seller may/is likely to be unaware where he/she is a reseller. That is fine, but there is still an obligation (to my mind) of getting to the true source. Duty of care. 

[Greenhorn2]

I would definitely make it right on my end even if I have to eat the loss. My reputation is worth more to me than any box of cigars. If the seller I purchased from doesn't have the same integrity and has no intention of trying to make things right by me, seller has seen a bad day. I would definitely warn others to keep them from being burnt, I see it as my civic duty to my BOTL/SOTL. I have yet to run across such a problem in the cigar community yet, all the people I've dealt with so far are mainly forum members here and are very fine people. Hope it stays this way.

[Chas.Alpha]

If it comes from me, I own it. If you’re not happy with the exchange it is up to me to make the transaction right.

if I want to call out the point of origin that’s my call, but ultimately this transaction was between me and the buyer. If it’s not straight, it’s on me (seller) to make it right…

<edit> I would make the point of origin known. I still live by the credo “know your source.” At this point, everything I have has come from 2 places. LCDH Havana and a shop on the other side of the planet from me…😬