Vendor Supply Chains & Inherent Risks

[vladdraq]

34 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Let me guess.  Now that the black lights and magnifying glasses are out, some other sacred cow venders will be called out and/or swaths of RGs.    

Yeah and now they'll understand better why Cohibas (their) are "not that great" or overrated...

[BEVOSREVENGE]

21 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

CigarCzar

Makes you long for the days when you could just order legit Cohibia with a few clicks of a button - and at a fraction of today's pricing.

 

 

[Sir Diggamus]

Great job in the investigation! @Cigar Salute


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NSXCIGAR]

16 hours ago, SCgarman said:

The troubling new trend "may" be the legit grey market vendors doing anything they can to survive in this market.

Exactly. This MF incident may end up taking down the entire gray market, both good and bad ones.

It may behoove certain gray market vendors to become affiliated so that at least they formally have access to distributor product whether or not they source it all from their local distributor. Now, some of these gray market vendors are based in Asia with warehousing in Europe. So do they affiliate with PCC or Tabak Invest? 

11 hours ago, BoliDan said:

I agree they may not have known, but they should be highly suspicious of a black market vendor.

I think there have probably more third parties involved in supplying vendors than we know. In fact, this may have been a supplier MF worked with for many years with no issues. 

However, there is inherent risk when dealing with any supplier other than a distributor directly. This necessitates constant diligence when accepting product from them. Knowing that there is a non-zero chance of fakes being introduced any  concerns over authenticity brought to your attention must be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly. If there is substance to the claims proactive steps should be taken to immediately remedy the situation and take full responsibility and be as transparent as possible. This did not happen, and that is my problem with the whole affair.

11 hours ago, rcarlson said:

Let me guess.  Now that the black lights and magnifying glasses are out, some other sacred cow venders will be called out and/or swaths of RPs.    

I would not be surprised in the least if MF wasn't the only vendor dealing with this supplier. I suspect lack of due diligence by gray market vendors across the board may be about to be exposed. 

[MrBirdman]

My concern is that Cuba does not seem to be investing in any anti-counterfeiting tech to stay ahead of forgers. Remain a static target longer enough, and with the kind of reward now available, and it’s only a matter of time before they can fool black lights and microscopes too. 

[BrightonCorgi]

40 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

My concern is that Cuba does not seem to be investing in any anti-counterfeiting tech to stay ahead of forgers.

What would you suggest they invest in to beat counterfeiting?  Gets difficult when the those same tools are sold to the counterfeiters.

Has anyone smoked a fake that was actually decent tasting?  Like almost close enough or different enough not to complain?

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

My concern is that Cuba does not seem to be investing in any anti-counterfeiting tech to stay ahead of forgers. Remain a static target longer enough, and with the kind of reward now available, and it’s only a matter of time before they can fool black lights and microscopes too. 

It's very difficult. In HSA's eyes all you need to do is buy from official channels. How much product is actually sold through the gray market? Are the fakes floating around actually impacting their sales? Are people who want Cohiba going buy less of it because of apprehension about fakes or are they just going to buy from reliable sources instead? 

[ATGroom]

5 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

My concern is that Cuba does not seem to be investing in any anti-counterfeiting tech to stay ahead of forgers. 

They have made progress. Before 2010 there were essentially no anti-counterfeit measures; today they have the holograms on seals and bands, the microprinting, the UV on bands and seals, destructive paper seals, boxes all have individual serial numbers that can be checked etc.

Yes, the counterfeiters have basically caught up at this point, but it was a bad replication of one of the anti-counterfeiting measures that enabled these fakes to be discovered.

There have been a few mentions that they're working on a new generation of tracking, although no details yet on what form it will take. I'm guessing QR codes and more logging of the box locations at different points in the distribution chain.

Quote

 

One unessential activity that remains the focus of Habanos is the scourge of counterfeit cigars. “We have taken some specific measures,” Sánchez-Harguindey says, “such as new seals on the boxes, holograms on our bands and distributors are now putting their own seals on Habanos’ boxes. By 2024, because of a new European Union regulation, we will also have tracers on every box of cigars from the time they leave Cuba, right down to the retailers’ shelves.”

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/the-co-presidents

 

 

[Fugu]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I would not be surprised in the least if MF wasn't the only vendor dealing with this supplier.

But what does “this supplier“ actually mean?!

If they were using only the official HSA-distribution (as they claim), there should not have been any issue (otherwise, we should soon see the same crap popping up at LCDHs as well 😅). Other sources?: big, big risk! Which other suppliers are there in this market? Backdoor Cuba? “chinchales” China?! And as a vendor you honestly wouldn’t see any risk?! They should have been aware of that, and respond to red-flags immediately.

Side note: Actually, I’ve checked some of the available pics, and wonder why this has taken weeks of debate.

[Bijan]

12 minutes ago, Fugu said:

But what does “this supplier“ actually mean?!

Generally in the past it seemed like this vendor only had cheap cigars that didn't sell well enough, listed on their website at a reasonable price and everything else at very high prices (I think they only managed to sell these because they sold singles and 5 packs).

This leads me to assume they got unwanted or oversupplied cigars from Spain or other markets (which are supposed to sell locally and aren't supposed to export).

Anyways just because of that I would have been suspicious of Cohibas at a reasonable price before, let alone now.

[Fugu]

19 minutes ago, Bijan said:

This leads me to assume they got unwanted or oversupplied cigars from Spain or other markets

Sure, but nothing wrong with that. That would still be official Tabacalera. No fakes to be expected from there.

So the question remains: where do/did they get their Cohibas from? They will know by themselves how fishy their source has been.

[Edicion]

19 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Sure, but nothing wrong with that. That would still be official Tabacalera. No fakes to be expected from there.

So the question remains: where do/did they get their Cohibas from? They will know by themselves how fishy their source has been.

Identifying the source is probably just a few connections away from their source(s) but my guess is that where these are originally from is a country that rhymes with Robaina.

[El Presidente]

10 minutes ago, Edicion said:

but my guess is that where these are originally from is a country that rhymes with Robaina.

....damn Romanians 

[Lunettesman]

Well... My take is they probably knew. Why? Because I've been approached by them a year ago. I have a decent following on IG and they asked me if I was ok to tag them and say i bought my stuff at their place. They said they would pay me 15usd per post. I told them why would I do that as a non customer?! They said I just have to pretend i bought my boxes at their place. I told them to F*** O**. Paying me 15usd to sell me soul to the devil. What a joke. 

[Bijan]

54 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Sure, but nothing wrong with that. That would still be official Tabacalera. No fakes to be expected from there.

So the question remains: where do/did they get their Cohibas from? They will know by themselves how fishy their source has been.

As I said in the past (when prices and availability were more reasonable) they could not get Cohiba (or any desirable cigars) at market rate and sold them all at a premium.

So for them to get and sell Cohiba at a discount now during "cigarmagedon", it defies belief that they didn't know they were fakes.

[ha_banos]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:04 AM, Ford2112 said:

I won't ever buy Cohiba blind ever again. Too risky IMO. Stick to FOH!

I have the luxury of some B&M where I can go in and look deep into the sellers eyes. But I can't afford it anyway. You must of course be talking about travel. I envy the folks who say they have good relationships with vendors (abroad) who they trust. I'm not the sort of person who's any good at this sort of networking.

14 hours ago, vladdraq said:

Yeah and now they'll understand better why Cohibas (their) are "not that great" or overrated...

Notwithstanding the usual variations that can arise in one box across any marcas of course, let alone singles.

[Duxnutz]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

....damn Romanians 

I was there a couple months ago. I couldn’t find a Cuban about as much as I couldn’t find a ceiling fan or a fan of any kind anywhere…. 
 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

But what does “this supplier“ actually mean?!

If they were using only the official HSA-distribution (as they claim),

We don't know what it means but as I said it's very possible third parties have been supplying gray markets for a long time. Who knows who distributors or vendors move product to. If a distributor can't move product within their region I'm sure they'd be willing to unload it to just about anyone. Assuming MF wasn't a knowing participant in this (an ever greater leap) it's fairly unlikely they would take a load of CoRo from the trunk of some greaseball's Honda Civic. It's likely a third party that had some reputation. 

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

So for them to get and sell Cohiba at a discount now during "cigarmagedon", it defies belief that they didn't know they were fakes.

Yes, the question should certainly be asked how a high-end item like CoRo could wind up bouncing around to a third party in the first place. Distributors certainly can move all of it in their region and no one would be trying to blow it out to third parties. It's not Monte 5. So we have what I would consider at the least gross negligence in thinking a third party would even have CoRo, not authenticating it when the likelihood of it being fake is quite high and then, knowing all that, pushing back hard when legitimate concerns are raised. 

I also wasn't aware MF claimed they source only from the distributor which in this case I'm assuming would be Tabacalera. Do they even have any relationship with Tabacalera? Easy enough to verify through Tabacalera. Anyway we now know that is not accurate. 

[La_Tigre]

Hoping the Tapados we bought from them are not fake. ☺️ 

Seriously, glad that we did not trust them from the very first order placed and have only a bought a few bugs get boxes from them that would make little sense to fake… Tapados, Du Depute, Shorts. Guessing anything possible now days but surely not several years ago on budget. Scary now how much this will affect and come to light with other trusted vendors on the list. 

[Bijan]

25 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I also wasn't aware MF claimed they source only from the distributor which in this case I'm assuming would be Tabacalera. Do they even have any relationship with Tabacalera? Easy enough to verify through Tabacalera. Anyway we now know that is not accurate. 

Presumably they're a grey market vendor mainly because Tabacalera is not supposed to sell/redistribute abroad or online. So it would be hard to have them confirm. And then no way for them to confirm they are MF's sole supplier.

[Lamboinee]

9 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

What would you suggest they invest in to beat counterfeiting?  Gets difficult when the those same tools are sold to the counterfeiters.

Has anyone smoked a fake that was actually decent tasting?  Like almost close enough or different enough not to complain?

I actually smoked a RyJ Churchill that I really enjoyed before learning it was fake recently. I'm actually going to smoke one of the fakes again and do a blind taste test with a friend to see if how we compare the fake to the real deal. 

[Hemclas]

 

4 hours ago, Lunettesman said:

Well... My take is they probably knew. Why? Because I've been approached by them a year ago. I have a decent following on IG and they asked me if I was ok to tag them and say i bought my stuff at their place. They said they would pay me 15usd per post. I told them why would I do that as a non customer?! They said I just have to pretend i bought my boxes at their place. I told them to F*** O**. Paying me 15usd to sell me soul to the devil. What a joke. 

This tells me all I need to know about this vendor.

[dominattorney]

14 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

What would you suggest they invest in to beat counterfeiting?  Gets difficult when the those same tools are sold to the counterfeiters.

Has anyone smoked a fake that was actually decent tasting?  Like almost close enough or different enough not to complain?

Yes. I had a fake Cohiba sublime that I was well worth the 20 bucks I paid for it. It was out of desperation but I would buy a box at a reasonable price even knowing they were not legit 

[Cigar Surgeon]

2 hours ago, therealrsr said:

RIP MF.  I am pretty sure they got a lot of business through the trusted vendor designation on r/cubancigar.  The way they are handling it leads me to believe they are not going to regain that status.

Correct. The community has already removed them from trusted status. 

[Hoepssa]

On 9/28/2022 at 11:06 AM, Cigar Salute said:

Thanks to Rob & everyone for the support and kind words!  I just wanna point out that Greg AKA "GregSpringer1" here on FOH deserves the credit for discovering these cigars were now being sold at Montefortuna.  It's sad that these bogus cigars were found at a popular vendor.  After seeing how many different places these things have been popping up at since I became aware of them early this year, nothing surprises me anymore unfortunately.  Hopefully this incident encourages other merchants & customers to be more vigilant in their buying practices!  

 

Great work @Cigar Salute! 

I believe many grown men reducing sleep hours to check their boxes, after realizing how crazy these brokers are.