What can we glean from these pics?

[El Presidente]

What can we glean from these pics?

There is not too much to go on, but for our intrepid investigators, what are the red flags....if any 

Let's walk the trap filled world of pre -embargo cigars.  

 

 

[Habana Mike]

Looks like a nice find. I'd want to try before buy.

[NSXCIGAR]

Looks like a F. Palicio y Cia factory at Maximo Gomez 51 production for Punch. The factory made Punch, Hoyo, La Escepcion and Belinda. I can also find Humidor No. 1s of Hoyo and other similar cabinets for LE. Seems like a common production offering for this factory, although most likely upscale. The quality of the wood & workmanship is high. Manufacturing stamp on the other boxes is late pre-Rev (1940s-1962).

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Looks like a F. Palicio y Cia factory at Maximo Gomez 51 production for Punch. The factory made Punch, Hoyo, La Escepcion and Belinda. I can also find Humidor No. 1s of Hoyo and other similar cabinets for LE. Seems like a common production offering for this factory, although most likely upscale. The quality of the wood workmanship is high. Manufacturing stamp on the other boxes is late pre-Rev (1940s-1962).

[rcarlson]

Pretty clean cello for pre-embargo.  

[PaulPower]

Looks like a F. Palicio y Cia factory at Maximo Gomez 51 production for Punch. The factory made Punch, Hoyo, La Escepcion and Belinda. I can also find Humidor No. 1s of Hoyo and other similar cabinets for LE. Seems like a common production offering for this factory, although most likely upscale. The quality of the wood workmanship is high. Manufacturing stamp on the other boxes is late pre-Rev (1940s-1962).

Dang man


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[El Presidente]

29 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Pretty clean cello for pre-embargo.  

Flag 1 

[El Presidente]

Just now, El Presidente said:

Flag 1 

Can someone post a pic of some vintage cigars with cello for comparison?

[JohnS]

40 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Pretty clean cello for pre-embargo.  

 

10 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Flag 1 

Yep. My first thought too. It's impossible for cellophane of a legitimate age not to have absorbed the oils off the wrapper and thus become discoloured.

[Ken Gargett]

i'm curious as to the slit at the back of the box. assume it contains info re the cigars. can't say i have ever seen that before (or perhaps just not noticed). if these are fakes, that is one hell of a box they have for them. 

as to the cellophane, agree that they should be more discoloured but just from photos, we might be getting a misleading read. i'd want to see them. the other thing i'd say is that if they have been kept much cooler than we usually imagine they would be, the seepage of oils would be less and that might be a reasonable colour for the cellophane.

but love to hear from someone re the slit in the box. 

[teamrandr]

Yes typically super aged cigar will have quite yellow even brownish cello.  There are some occasional ones that don't seem to get too yellow though.   Also the photos can be deceiving.   It is best to photograph the cello off the cigar to best show the age.  I must agree though they look a tad suspect.  Just hard to really tell sometimes when they are photographed with the cello on.

Here is a 1930's El Roi Tan cello on

1950's RyJ Fancy Tales cello off

1943 Benson& Hedges cello off

1952 Muriel Senato cello on and off

[rcarlson]

44 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i'm curious as to the slit at the back of the box. assume it contains info re the cigars. can't say i have ever seen that before (or perhaps just not noticed). if these are fakes, that is one hell of a box they have for them. 

as to the cellophane, agree that they should be more discoloured but just from photos, we might be getting a misleading read. i'd want to see them. the other thing i'd say is that if they have been kept much cooler than we usually imagine they would be, the seepage of oils would be less and that might be a reasonable colour for the cellophane.

but love to hear from someone re the slit in the box. 

That back panel looks like an add-on.  Maybe to accommodate cigars that are shorter than intended?     

 

Bands?  CC website says should look like this pre 60's.    

 

This is a damn Where's Waldo.  

[NSXCIGAR]

41 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i'm curious as to the slit at the back of the box.

Looks like these F. Palicio y Cia humidors use some kind of humidification device there:

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Looks like these F. Palicio y Cia humidors use some kind of humidification device there:

thanks. interesting. 

[NSXCIGAR]

50 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Bands?  CC website says should look like this pre 60's.    

Only post-Rev. While a particular release may be pre-Rev, known bands can only be accounted for post-Rev.

 

1 hour ago, teamrandr said:

There are some occasional ones that don't seem to get too yellow though.

Agreed. I've seen plenty of 50+ year old cello cigars without yellowing or browning apparent while on the cigar. Certainly not a definitive sign of fakes.

In fact, why would a counterfeiter even use cellophane? Just leave them nude. Now, I could see putting the incorrect models in the box to replace originals, but they would still be vintage. The cigars are obviously pre-Rev regardless. The point is that the cello, clean or not, isn't really of any evidentiary value.

[NSXCIGAR]

16 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Well, shit.  Inspector Clouseau striking out.    

More bad news--the bands in the Humi appear to be the one you reference--Standard Band A, in use until 2009. 

That band was used for a long time and quite a few years before the Rev. Same with Partagas, Monte and HU. Some of those bands remained unchanged for over 60 years. 

[rcarlson]

8 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

More bad news--the bands in the Humi appear to be the one you reference--Standard Band A, in use until 2009. 

That band was used for a long time and quite a few years before the Rev. Same with Partagas, Monte and HU. Some of those bands remained unchanged for over 60 years. 

The coins against the emblem caught my eye.  You got a pic?  

[NSXCIGAR]

5 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

The coins against the emblem caught my eye.  You got a pic?  

Hard to see but the first and third pic, second cigar from left, appears to show the gold medal abutted to the logo. A bit more separation than in more recent versions but I believe these bands would be considered Standard Band A.

[rcarlson]

10 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Hard to see but the first and third pic, second cigar from left, appears to show the gold medal abutted to the logo. A bit more separation than in more recent versions but I believe these bands would be considered Standard Band A.

But if you zoom in, it say "Epstein Didn't Kill Himself" in fine print.  

[NSXCIGAR]

4 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

But if you zoom in, it say "Epstein Didn't Kill Himself" in fine print.  

Oh my God...

[ATGroom]

I wonder about the absence of cedar sheet between the layers, although don't have any real knowledge of whether or not this particular kind of box was supposed to have one.

[NSXCIGAR]

15 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

I wonder about the absence of cedar sheet between the layers, although don't have any real knowledge of whether or not this particular kind of box was supposed to have one.

Right. No way to know what is "supposed" to be there pre-Rev. Clearly the value of this is primarily the cabinet itself. Quite a few cigars missing--in fact, possibly even another row could fit on top. I've also seen several dress boxes that old opened, in cello, and no cedar sheet. Also, modern CC until 2002 in cello never used the cedar sheet. Do we know if cedar sheets were ever used with cello?

Seeing as how there are quite a few of these cabs in existence (albeit without cigars) there's probably someone who could narrow down at least the format, model and vitola of these. There seems to be far more Hoyo and La Escepcion versions in existence than Punch however. Of course, it's getting harder and harder to find anyone who worked in these factories pre-Rev. 

[Doctorossi]

13 hours ago, rcarlson said:

Pretty clean cello for pre-embargo.  

That was my first thought, too.

[99call]

12 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Flag 1 

Flag 2 would be, the end of the cello is open, this would be unusual to the point that, the only explanation would be the original owner snipped off the ends.  This does happen, put i'd say the chances would be anywhere between a 1% to 5% likelihood. i.e not very. 

 

 

[rcarlson]

I'm assuming there's something to be seen in each of the pictures, which is why they're shown. 

So, I question the wear and tear on the clasp mechanism shown in pic #4.  It  does not appear to be consistent with a box that has the majority of the cigars remaining.  Looks the wear on the clasping mechanism is more consistent with an old empty box that had been opened and closed a gazillion times, not one that actually held well-preserved, generations-old cigars. 

Okay NSX.  Let me have it on this too.  ?