Fakes in Singapore.


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I hadn't been to this place before but my friend Manu said I should check it out and so Foxy and I headed there after an excellent chicken and rice lunch (Chin Chin eating house...nice recommendation KW!)

I won't mention the name of the place but most Singaporeans probably know it. Up a few dusty stairs (lift is out) there appeared an excellent Humidor and bar.  The staff were professional and friendly. The space well laid out with a nice whisky selection. 

Sadly, we entered into the humidor and came across a mix of cigars both authentic and fake. The standout was the fake Montecristo Gran Reserva Number 2. 

It was disheartening. The staff would have had no idea. The owner, who knows.  

I am not sure what the solution is? Manu and most others would have no idea. The staff likely no idea as well. 

I didn't say anything. They would deny it and think that they are correct. 

Prosecution would require proving "intent" to sell fake cigars. Very hard to prove. 

The only disheartening episode in a great trip 

 

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Ive never understood why “the staff/owner couldnt/wouldnt know”is acceptable in the world of cigars. 

Would that answer be acceptable from your car salesman, or even a bartender or liquor store clerk? Imagine if it wasnt the watch/jewelry store owners responsibility to ensure you were buying real diamonds. There wouldnt be a single real diamond in circulation. 

Lazy training/sales staff is the most innocent possible answer.  But its still not a good one. I understand a regular Joe not being able to pick out fakes, but if you work at a cigar store, for a living, and cant tell the difference you’re just not good at your job. What am I missing here?

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3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I hadn't been to this place before but my friend Manu said I should check it out and so Foxy and I headed there after an excellent chicken and rice lunch (Chin Chin eating house...nice recommendation KW!)

I won't mention the name of the place but most Singaporeans probably know it. Up a few dusty stairs (lift is out) there appeared an excellent Humidor and bar.  The staff were professional and friendly. The space well laid out with a nice whisky selection. 

Sadly, we entered into the humidor and came across a mix of cigars both authentic and fake. The standout was the fake Montecristo Gran Reserva Number 2. 

It was disheartening. The staff would have had no idea. The owner, who knows.  

I am not sure what the solution is? Manu and most others would have no idea. The staff likely no idea as well. 

I didn't say anything. They would deny it and think that they are correct. 

Prosecution would require proving "intent" to sell fake cigars. Very hard to prove. 

The only disheartening episode in a great trip 

 

If it’s the one in Chinatown then I’ve been there a few times and have met the owner, who was a big customer for my wife in her previous job. Sad to hear they have fake cigars there but I think they buy from some dubious sources and this is an unintended/intended consequence.

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There are fakes in the LCDH's in Cuba also.. There are cases where singles boxes have been reloaded with banded fakes targeting tourists with high margin cigars. It's a worldwide thing. 

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3 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Ive never understood why “the staff/owner couldnt/wouldnt know”is acceptable in the world of cigars. 

Would that answer be acceptable from your car salesman, or even a bartender or liquor store clerk? Imagine if it wasnt the watch/jewelry store owners responsibility to ensure you were buying real diamonds. There wouldnt be a single real diamond in circulation. 

Lazy training/sales staff is the most innocent possible answer.  But its still not a good one. I understand a regular Joe not being able to pick out fakes, but if you work at a cigar store, for a living, and cant tell the difference you’re just not good at your job. What am I missing here?

Section 49 of the local Trade marks Act. 

 

Section 49 of the Trade Marks Act (Cap 332). The law states that any person who imports into Singapore for the purpose of trade or manufacture; sells or offers or exposes for sale; or has in his possession for the purpose of trade or manufacture any goods to which a trade mark is falsely applied shall be guilty of an offence, unless he proves that he has taken all reasonable precautions against committing the offence, and at the time of the commission of the alleged offence had no reason to suspect the genuineness of the mark, and on demand of the prosecution gave all the information in his power with respect to the persons from whom he obtained the goods, or he had acted innocently.

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23 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Section 49 of the local Trade marks Act. 

 

Section 49 of the Trade Marks Act (Cap 332). The law states that any person who imports into Singapore for the purpose of trade or manufacture; sells or offers or exposes for sale; or has in his possession for the purpose of trade or manufacture any goods to which a trade mark is falsely applied shall be guilty of an offence, unless he proves that he has taken all reasonable precautions against committing the offence, and at the time of the commission of the alleged offence had no reason to suspect the genuineness of the mark, and on demand of the prosecution gave all the information in his power with respect to the persons from whom he obtained the goods, or he had acted innocently.

I understand that. Im sure there are similar laws in 90% of jurisdictions world wide. As your experience in Mexico showed this is a massive problem in many different locals. My question, is why are cigars so different from every other product that the above law is applied to? 

Sure there are plenty of fake watches, purses, and shoes. But not sitting in the Gucci store on a shelf next to the real thing, with no indication of which is real or fake. (In my experience)

 Maybe “schucks officer I didnt know it was illegal” works in Singapore, I’ve never been. It seems a pretty weak defence for someone who is in the business of selling cigars to claim they’re really that ignorant.

Did you and Rob get a chance to discuss this much while there? As the proprietor of several B&Ms himself I would love to get his take. I understand not every cigar Vendor lives up to the standards the Foxes set, but I would be absolutely floored to see anything even slightly questionable in one of their humidors. 

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I don’t like the idea of giving the staff a pass at all. You work there you need to have basic knowledge which should include authenticating your product. You want to say management and ownership are primarily responsible then thats fine and I agree but regular staff does NOT deserve a pass if fakes are out for sale.

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Well I am shocked if it is the place I think it is 

shame I do like it there 

anyhow I normally buy a cheap arse Cigar not there is such a thing in singapore just like Oz 

them smoke my own 

cheers ? 

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6 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

I understand that. Im sure there are similar laws in 90% of jurisdictions world wide. As your experience in Mexico showed this is a massive problem in many different locals. My question, is why are cigars so different from every other product that the above law is applied to? 

Sure there are plenty of fake watches, purses, and shoes. But not sitting in the Gucci store on a shelf next to the real thing, with no indication of which is real or fake. (In my experience)

 Maybe “schucks officer I didnt know it was illegal” works in Singapore, I’ve never been. It seems a pretty weak defence for someone who is in the business of selling cigars to claim they’re really that ignorant.

Did you and Rob get a chance to discuss this much while there? As the proprietor of several B&Ms himself I would love to get his take. I understand not every cigar Vendor lives up to the standards the Foxes set, but I would be absolutely floored to see anything even slightly questionable in one of their humidors. 

couple of things. 

  • in Sing, if you buy from Jimmy and the PCC stores you are fine.  
  • Both Foxy and I buy from one distributor. H&F and PCC respectively. Store in question is grey market. They have stock from all over the world. 
  • One of the great Geneva houses was found to be selling a fake premium. Early 2000's. Great fakes.  It is not restricted to backwater stores. 

the girls on the floor selling cigars would have no idea. you may not believe it or think it poor form but it takes a little bit of skill in working out the better fakes.  How many members of this forum have been taken in the past? How many Monte reserva 2's have the staff seen before? they just turned up one day and put on the shelf. 

The two young asian girls on the floor who likely do not smoke are not to blame. The owner should know better unless he was taken by his supplier. Most grey's will have multiple suppliers.  

Why are cigars so different? Not sure. This was not a LCDH store but I can see your point. 

in the end it is bloody expensive to prosecute and then there is no certainty even if you catch them red handed. When the judge sees the purchase invoice from a foreign company detailing a list of cuban cigars, it looks legitimate. the list doesn't state 100 fake montecristo 2 reserva.  

I am not sure what the answer is. 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Section 49 of the local Trade marks Act. 

 

Section 49 of the Trade Marks Act (Cap 332). The law states that any person who imports into Singapore for the purpose of trade or manufacture; sells or offers or exposes for sale; or has in his possession for the purpose of trade or manufacture any goods to which a trade mark is falsely applied shall be guilty of an offence, unless he proves that he has taken all reasonable precautions against committing the offence, and at the time of the commission of the alleged offence had no reason to suspect the genuineness of the mark, and on demand of the prosecution gave all the information in his power with respect to the persons from whom he obtained the goods, or he had acted innocently.

Sing's pretty tough on most all crimes, no surprise here.

Pretty good black pepper crab at the restaurant just below.

Bring my own, decent drink selection and comfortable space at any rate.....

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6 minutes ago, CdnLimitada said:

Sorry I couldn't make it out Rob.  Hope you had a good time in Singers!  Didn't stay for the 7s?

 

 

Next time!

Hit and run mission this time around. Will return again soon enough. 

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8 hours ago, westg said:

That is disapointing to hear....What is in the bottles ..I wonder...have been there plenty..and planned on visiting in a few weeks  

The bottles should be fine coz I know they buy from the official distributors. The problem with the cigars is that they are sourced from non-PCC sources.

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15 hours ago, El Presidente said:

couple of things. 

  • in Sing, if you buy from Jimmy and the PCC stores you are fine.  
  • Both Foxy and I buy from one distributor. H&F and PCC respectively. Store in question is grey market. They have stock from all over the world. 
  • One of the great Geneva houses was found to be selling a fake premium. Early 2000's. Great fakes.  It is not restricted to backwater stores. 

the girls on the floor selling cigars would have no idea. you may not believe it or think it poor form but it takes a little bit of skill in working out the better fakes.  How many members of this forum have been taken in the past? How many Monte reserva 2's have the staff seen before? they just turned up one day and put on the shelf. 

The two young asian girls on the floor who likely do not smoke are not to blame. The owner should know better unless he was taken by his supplier. Most grey's will have multiple suppliers.  

Why are cigars so different? Not sure. This was not a LCDH store but I can see your point. 

in the end it is bloody expensive to prosecute and then there is no certainty even if you catch them red handed. When the judge sees the purchase invoice from a foreign company detailing a list of cuban cigars, it looks legitimate. the list doesn't state 100 fake montecristo 2 reserva.  

I am not sure what the answer is. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. And I bet most of us on this forum wouldn't be able to spot the fakes. ( unless they are pretty  agregious) they make them pretty convincing these days. 

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Not that I could likely spot a good fake for what it is, but Rob--was it the packaging/labeling, the cigar construction/appearance or a combination of both that gave it away to you? 

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9 hours ago, kwsaw63 said:

The bottles should be fine coz I know they buy from the official distributors. The problem with the cigars is that they are sourced from non-PCC sources.

Yes KW....my concern would be that if they or anyone were to be selling fake Cubans....what might they be putting in empty bottles..some sort of Dgrade scotch..

 

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4 hours ago, westg said:

Yes KW....my concern would be that if they or anyone were to be selling fake Cubans....what might they be putting in empty bottles..some sort of Dgrade scotch..

 

I understand but I think it’s unlikely as I know from the trade that they buy a lot from official distributors, so unlikely to be re-filling with cheap alcohol. 

 

Anyway, who knows? So we’ll just cross them off as a possible meet-up place when you’re in town next month.

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