acidmase Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 So I've been on this forum for a few years and I've smoked a few RE's and EL's do not see what the fuss is about! The RE's and LE's that I've seen were ok to good, but not worth the price at all. My question is why doesn't Habanos SA bring back old marca's that aren't made anymore? Italy brought back La Escepción and it was a smash hit! ( although some retailers douched some guys out on jars and inflated prices way over retail) Although i understand that to a point. I think if they target the market on cigars that were once produce like la escepcion i think retailers wouldn't have problems with stock staying for a few years on their selves because it will be wiped out in no time and everyone would be happy from consumer to the retailor! What are your thoughts guys?
LordAnubis Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I do not think the la escepcion was a smash hit to the market. They didn't sell and had to put them into jars to make them sell. Not a success. but For example the Monte 520, Cohiba 1966, Cohiba Robusto Supremos have all been overwhelmingly sold out (from a distributors perspective anyway). Habanos is a business, and Habanos knows that cigar aficianados are not their customer. People who walk into a duty free shop and ask for "a box of cigars" are their customers. And those customers buy cohibas and montecristos and anything else with a shiny band or "limited edition" written on it.
Hash Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I smoked few regionals and limited editions, imo, they do not add much to the enjoyment of smoking cc. it is all a marketing gimmick that Habanos is becoming very good at. I enjoy a regular production cigar such as series D #4 or RASS,siglo VI much more.Just my humble opinion.
Smallclub Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 The italian La Escepcion was not a "smash hit", and even if it had been, it would be a small detail in the overall picture. There are good REs and LEs and mediocre REs and LEs, and I fail to see why re-launching old marcas would change anything…
TonyAccardo Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I could care less about LE's or RE's and could really care less about marca's or "old vitolas" either. I'd be just fine if they nixed all but 2 or 3 marcas as I've found the differences in cigars is more about what you're going to get in this box or that box of cigars and much less about a certain marca or certain vitola having a certain profile. I think anyone who thinks a certain marca is true to a certain profile is letting the brand influence their thoughts too much or/and taking into account the historical aspects of the marca, especially when they were private companies or shortly after they became state-run companies, and letting that influence their thoughts more than is really justified. Once you understand the manufacturing process and the truth behind what these cigars really are and can be, marcas make little difference and RE's and LE's make even less sense unless you're strictly a collector, buying the cigars for investment value and nothing else. Or you're a guy who smokes a band rather than a cigar for its inherent tobacco goodness. 1
polarbear Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 With HSA offering distributors a new RE every year and only allowing them limited choices of marcas it makes sense they revive old brands as part of the RE program in order to generate some interest. I mean, if you have 2 boliva REs and 2 RAs REs in 4 years I doubt many would buy a box of each unless they were really unusual sizes 1
Smallclub Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I'd be just fine if they nixed all but 2 or 3 marcas as I've found the differences in cigars is more about what you're going to get in this box or that box of cigars and much less about a certain marca or certain vitola having a certain profile. ... Once you understand the manufacturing process and the truth behind what these cigars really are and can be, marcas make little difference and RE's and LE's make even less sense So you don't taste the difference between a PSD4, a Choix Supreme, an Epi 2 and a Regios? (for instance) I "understand the manufacturing process" and I'm still amazed at the work of the master blenders. As for REs, most Por Larranagas Regionals are much better than the regular production of the marca, with a similar profile. The ERDM Vikingos and Petit Compania are much better than a Choix Supreme of the same age... There are other examples. 1
TonyAccardo Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 So you don't taste the difference between a PSD4, a Choix Supreme, an Epi 2 and a Regios? (for instance) I "understand the manufacturing process" and I'm still amazed at the work of the master blenders. As for REs, most Por Larranagas Regionals are much better than the regular production of the marca, with a similar profile. The ERDM Vikingos and Petit Compania are much better than a Choix Supreme of the same age... There are other examples. Maybe I have the palate of a billy goat but I've had a box of Epi 2's that tasted like a box of Choix Supremes and I've had two boxes of Epi 2's that were so different that you could have convinced anyone, even one without a "refined" palate that they were two completely different cigars. I'm sure your ERDM Vikingos were better than your Choixs of the same age, but just the opposite could have very easily happened as well. I've had cigars from different boxes of PSD4's that have tasted so completely different that, again, anyone with a functioning brain and olfactory nerve would swear that they were two completely separate marcas. I've found that I just stick with the marcas that I like the "looks" of the bands the best and stick with the vitolas I like best and that's about it. As stupid as that sounds, with regular production, I've found anyways in my experiences, that marca makes little difference in the way acigar is going to taste and that it's more a matter of "Am I going to recieve a box of cubans that I thoroughly enjoy or not?" At first, for the first several years, I held the beliefs that alot do about marcas and profiles but learned as I went along that rarely do you get a box consecutively that tastes like the last box of the same cigar. If everyone out there IS able to get box after box of such consistency, I'd love to know what I've been doing wrong all this time to get such variety. To me it's part of the fun and I am on the hunt for a "great box of cigars" ! Nothing more, nothing less and marcas mean little to me in whether that box of cigars is going to be fantastic. I completely understand where you or anyone else for that matter would call me a cretin for my beliefs, tastes, and methods of thought on the whole buying and smoking process, but I've found it works quite well for me and I certainly haven't found it to be untrue. If you can tell me that you're getting box after box after box of Choix Supremes that taste virtually identical and have stayed very consistent to the fabled "flavor profile" then I must say, not only are you a very lucky man, but that you must have some method of buying or option of purchase that is known and open to only you and are very fortunate. Much more fortunate and lucky than the rest of us cretins.
Colt45 Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 What are your thoughts guys? I appreciate the concepts, but I often find the execution wanting. I've found anyways in my experiences, that marca makes little difference in the way acigar is going to taste Over time I've come to feel that Cuban cigars share more similarities than they have differences.
Smallclub Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 You are confusing "inconsistency in quality" and "inconsistency of the blend". A Partagas D4 can be a bad D4 but still presenting the unmistakable typicality of a D4.
PuroDan Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Double bands aren't what made Cuba popular. I have smoked a few double bands, good cigars. Rather spend my coin on reg production. I will say this though, the best cigar i have had this year has been the RA Superiore. But once I smoke a Bolivar BF this year the RA will go down. Regular production Cuban's have stood the test of time. Double bands will come and go, as they do. There will be gems in double banded cigars,but for the most part they are overpriced IMHO.
... Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Jeez guys, why the need to make grand 'across the board' statements? I don't understand one's interest in defining such subjective concepts as taste and appreciation by using limited adjectives and bold judgements. Very few smokers out there could probably call it, based on their extensive and long term experience, and the funny thing you'll find is they are most likely to abstain from such boldness... Seems perspective and experience teaches one nuances of judgement and open-mindedness... 3
TonyAccardo Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 You are confusing "inconsistency in quality" and "inconsistency of the blend". A Partagas D4 can be a bad D4 but still presenting the unmistakable typicality of a D4. Call it any way you like to Smallclub. That's your choice, you're experiences, your tastes. My methods as to choosing what I buy and how I feel about what to buy, what to smoke has served me very well in the last few years. Much better than when I was going after certain vitolas, marcas because a "D4 is supposed to taste this way!" Only to be let down. Is it inconsistency in quality? Sure but just as much it's inconsistency in blend too, therefore, for me, it does me no good to rely on "consistency in blend or quality". All I can do is buy from a legitimate vendor whom I have a relationship with and will let me know what looks good and search out a good box of cigars for me, and hope for the best when it comes time to smoke it. If that be a great strong and peppery D4, so be it. If it be a mild yet flavorfull vanilla and cream D4, so be it. I'll be just as happy with both, as my tastes preferences span the flavor wheel. We can choose to nitpik on semantics about whether I'm talking about "inconsistency of quality or blend" all day but what it comes down to for me is a great cigar is a great cigar! Period! I don't care if that means it's a Hoyo Epi 2 from 2003 or a Bolivar RC from 2011, it matters none to me, as their is inconsistency in both quality and blending amongst ALL of the marcas and vitolas and thats a generalization that I feel very comfortable in putting forth. Enjoy the day, enjoy your cigars, whatever they be, however old or new they are. That's all the more I'll say about this as I feel I've taken up enough space on this thread and spent all the more time I'm willing to debating it. Your tastes, buying beliefs, and practices are yours, and mine are mine anda thousand posts by you or anyone else aren't going to change that for me. Experiences do and that's it.
topdiesel Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 You are confusing "inconsistency in quality" and "inconsistency of the blend". A Partagas D4 can be a bad D4 but still presenting the unmistakable typicality of a D4. I agree with Smallclub. I can blind call a bolivar any day of the week. They taste unique to me and they still taste like I remember them tasting 10 years ago. Fresh to fresh. Not fresh to aged 10 years. I will admit that many other marcas would be a mystery to me (I would assume that is due to my palate.)if the band were taken off, but there are several that have unique profiles.
LeafLover Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I've tried a couple of LE's. I'll stick to my regular production thank you very much. Would like to try the La Esepcion Italy RE though.
earthson Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I'd be just fine if they nixed all but 2 or 3 marcas as I've found the differences in cigars is more about what you're going to get in this box or that box of cigars and much less about a certain marca or certain vitola having a certain profile. I couldn't disagree more! Have you tried all of the brands??? Most have that special Cuban twang (a product of terroir), but I keep numerous brands in my rotation specifically because they offer up something different. What exactly are the 2 or 3 brands you'd keep? So I've been on this forum for a few years and I've smoked a few RE's and EL's do not see what the fuss is about! The RE's and LE's that I've seen were ok to good, but not worth the price at all. My question is why doesn't Habanos SA bring back old marca's that aren't made anymore? Def. agree about the price - they're over-priced and rarely worth it. I haven't tried all of them, but the one's I've tried have been disappointing. The disappearance of old brands probably has much to do with how they were selling, but there is also the tobacco strain overhaul that occurred in the late 90s. If you have a chance, try some mid-90s sticks from brands still around today and see if you can tell the difference (beyond the obvious "aged" flavor.
Smallclub Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Most have that special Cuban twang (a product of terroir), What the US call "Twang" doesn't translate in most european languages. We had this discussion about "twang" before on this forum, and from what I can remember our US aficionados didn't come to a consensus definition… 1
TonyAccardo Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 I couldn't disagree more! Have you tried all of the brands??? Most have that special Cuban twang (a product of terroir), but I keep numerous brands in my rotation specifically because they offer up something different. What exactly are the 2 or 3 brands you'd keep? Def. agree about the price - they're over-priced and rarely worth it. I haven't tried all of them, but the one's I've tried have been disappointing. The disappearance of old brands probably has much to do with how they were selling, but there is also the tobacco strain overhaul that occurred in the late 90s. If you have a chance, try some mid-90s sticks from brands still around today and see if you can tell the difference (beyond the obvious "aged" flavor. Because it's the written word, I'm not going to blame you for taking what I type literally as you can only go off what I write. It's not really important to me whether someone agrees with me on this. But I'll respect your opinion though. Honestly, I think if they just kept Hoyo, Bolivar, and Montecristo I'd be just as happy and satisfied in my smoking experiences than if they had 100 different marcas, but that's just me. I have to say I do agree with the above poster who said he could pick a Bolivar out anytime. That I've found to be accurate, so I guess that shoots my beliefs in the toilet. But without getting into constantly explaining each and every statement that I make, I think most everyone here is intelligent enough to grasp what I'm trying to convey as far as my thoughts and experiences with cubans. No, I haven't tried each and every marca. Off the top of my head, I believe Vuegueros, Robaina, La Eccepscion, are the few I have not boughten and stocked in my inventory. I may someday but to be honest I really have no great desire to buy them. The marcas I have alot of are Upmann, Hoyo, SLR, Juan Lopez, and Bolivar. And as surprising as it may be, I have no Montecristo and haven't had any for quite a few years. Had a bad box of 2's, never bought more and have always read up on others experience and seen that inconsistency is a very consistent thing with them so have stayed away. Would I love to have a box of firecracker box of 2's? Of course I would as I'd like to have a firecracker of a box of any cuban but I've stuck with what has worked for me consistently. That's all.
earthson Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 What the US call "Twang" doesn't translate in most european languages. We had this discussion about "twang" before on this forum, and from what I can remember our US aficionados didn't come to a consensus definition… Does it help if I mention a Nicaraguan twang? Maybe since the USers invented the mode of speech prevalent in the American Southeast (which is very twangy) "twang" is an onomatopoeia that is translated into gourmet-speak?
shlomo Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Another odd and confusing pile of posts.... 4
... Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Another odd and confusing pile of posts....Agreed. Opinions written with just the right amount of strength can come off as distorted/weird statements. Unilaterality can be quite effective in many situations but never in a constructive two (or more) ways discussion. Oh well...
mgravito Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 REs and LEs are like any of the core blends of each marca. Some are great, some are good, some are bad (in each person's own opinion). I like the idea because it allows for the creation of different vitolas and/or blends that would probably otherwise not be made at all. I personally love the PL Encantos or the JL4 but without the RE program those are probably never made. I like options. If you don't like them or think they're too expensive I can guarantee you'll find something somewhere you'll like. 1
CaptainQuintero Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Twang to me is a sour note, only very slight on the middle back of the tongue, the tongue almost contracts when I taste it. It's sometimes leathery or grassy, meaty maybe. Probably that 'your mummy' new flavour the Japanese talk about all the time
acidmase Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 I do not think the la escepcion was a smash hit to the market. They didn't sell and had to put them into jars to make them sell. Not a success. but For example the Monte 520, Cohiba 1966, Cohiba Robusto Supremos have all been overwhelmingly sold out (from a distributors perspective anyway). Habanos is a business, and Habanos knows that cigar aficianados are not their customer. People who walk into a duty free shop and ask for "a box of cigars" are their customers. And those customers buy cohibas and montecristos and anything else with a shiny band or "limited edition" written on it. read this https://www.stevegriff.com/cigars/articles/2013/09/04/la-escepcion-selectos-finos-to-be-released-in-jars/#.VOjIMUJFn8s
Lotusguy Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Been rehashed so many times... If you don't like them, don't buy them. 1
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