Sir Winston

[Guest rob]

Hey rob, nice to see you. I certainly understand that, just saying to keep an open mind, for those who are weighing in with a very heavy hand.

Likewise Marc!

Oh, and always, my man. Always.

[pbibby]

I'd like to think that whilst we're on a tobacco lovng forum, that if you had input, and knowledge that would be appreciated by your 'brothers'..... that you would enjoy the opportunity to share with discussion, stories... and not in cryptic ways and riddles that require someone with far greater intellect than me to decipher.

This is the best post of the thread.

[BonVivant]

Marc, I trust your judgement, and respect those you vouch for..... However, if you go back and read through the thread carefully, but this time though, pretending you don't know Eddie from a bar of soap - you'll see the other side of the thread.

Claims and comments made. Seeds sowed. Gently watered.

Questions asked. Clarification sought as to what is this fruit that I am eating, if it's not the apple I thought it was.

Take the pebble from my hand.....

But master, I see no pebble....

Come back to me when you do.....

Brilliant deciphering of the thread!!!

Note to myself: closing mind and opening humidors and wallet makes everything crystal clear

BTW, I found a button to ignore myself

[Vortigan]

I have never had a SW.....or an Esplendildo (!) for that matter.Blissful ignorance

[stunod]

Wow and all I wanted to know is when Rob was getting more Sir Winston's.

[shrink]

FWIW, the Sir Winston is one of my favorite Churchills. The box of 2008's I have been smoking from are outstanding. Rich and flavorful, and true to the marca. I prefer them to the 2008 Esplendidos, but then overall, I prefer Upmann's to Cohibas. YMMV.

[El Presidente]

Wow and all I wanted to know is when Rob was getting more Sir Winston's.

Hopefully next month

This thread is true in parts, supposition in others.

I know full well that that the requirement to meet quota on a given cigar leads to shortcuts. I have posted long ago about the time when a HSA friend visited a regional factory that had to make some 20,000 "ish" Siglo VI. They ran out of the blend, they just made it up from what they had. My friend was beside himself. In the end quota wins and I have no doubt it happens to this day. Some managers are more scrupulous than others. It has always been disappointing to me that some of the best managers (most passionate) are demoted to other roles because they are seen as an obstacle. Now mind you, not set aside by HSA as they have no say in it. HSA wouldn't know if they are buying blended R&J Churchills, Esplendidos, or Sir Winstons. I would like to think I know. only because I smoke the bloody things. Each has a different aroma at cold, body. taste.

There have been many times that I suspect a Bolivar Royal Corona & D4 are the same cigar blend. Many times I know that they have done it right.

On Box Codes and years, I respect the effort many have undertaken to decipher the vagaries. Still there is a pattern (willingness) to generalise. I can understand it but if you try to generalise the Cuban Cigar Industry you most times end up with egg on your face.

The country is corrupt.....Yes. The Industry is corrupt.....Yes. Secretive....Yes. Still, great cigars are bountiful. You just need to know what you are looking for and how to assess them.

On the Sir Winston. I would take some of the 2013 Sir Winston over my personal 2003 and 2001 any day. Blend was immaculate.

On the Esplendido, bar for some rare boxes I have come up with, I wouldn't touch too much in the past couple of years.

On the Lancero, same and a shame. I could pick a Vegueros wrapper on a Lancero from a mile away. Smoking experience same. Not to say they never tried swapping Vegueros for Lanceros....Quota people...quota...and nothing to do with HSA and I suspect it has been done from what I have seen and smoked.

Juan Lopez 1 and 2 I dip my cap to others who probably have more experience. All I can say is that in the 2's 2012/13 were generally stellar. 2007/8 an abberation (sensational).

Monte 2 is always my benchmark of the Cuban Cigar Industry. I have never had a Monte 2 that tasted like a P2/Upmann 2/Dip 2. Then again I pick my own boxes (as I pick many of yours). Aroma at cold tells me much of what I want in a Monte 2.

For me factory codes are a secondary consideration. Construction, aroma at cold, wrapper are primary.

It is true that I use to dissect cigars to weigh wrapper, binder, ligero, seco, volado. (I had a lot of time on my hands ) I also blended those old Czar's and Tampa Customs. It is not only the % of blend that makes the difference but the region they come from + the year + the strain + the influence of the blender. The blender is in a hard position. . Crikey, if blending a Monte 2 and the Seco or wrappper provided you select is sub par....what do you do?.....YOU USE IT! You really can't adjust the blend in most cases ...you use what was ordered for that QUOTA. For the love of God you are being paid $20 a month.

What is required is great tobacco in it's pure form. Get great tobacco and in most cases you get great cigars. Yes, some fabricas are better than others (it is the managers and blenders actually giving a rats arse) Not every box from BTO//POU etal is going to be great. There are duds. Live with it. Not every box from 1999 is a dud. Not every box from 2006 is stellar, 2011 had some sensational boxes, I wouldn't give some boxes from 1996 to my worst enemy.

Box codes are a guide (I like to use the term bell curve) some are skewed to the right (quality) and others to the left (crap). For the record I have seen crap POU and BTO boxes.

Buying blind then use them as you increase the chance of better boxes.

In the end enjoy what you enjoy. I took great pleasure today in finding some great stock for members. Others I have told to "wait another month". It is an expensive hobby, you might as well wait until I would spend my own coin on "that box".

I would prefer to have a humidor full of "great boxes" than one full of "poor/average ones" even if that cost me 15% -20% more (from whomever). In the end if you have to ditch 5 it works out the same.

Cheers

Rob

[Stanislaw]

Wow, this thread is like a complicated woman... I was attracted by the topic, led down a wild emotional road, thankfully it paid off with a great lay...err, read....

[Pedro2486]

Thanks prez for weighing in on this. As an admitted cigar noob this thread looked a bit "off" to me. I'm sure, in fact it know the posters in this thread have great knowledge, but the tone it started to deteriorate to was, I think, not how discussions should go on this forum. The absence of a lot of people I would class as the elders of this place is, to me, telling of this

Peace

[CaptainQuintero]

Thanks for the insight Pres, appreciate the thoughts. I think you summed up my thoughts a lot better, efficiently and friendlier

There has to be dodgy runs of certain cigars for whatever reasons, so a certain box code on a certain cigar could be suspect, but a wholesale coverup of a cigar being just a rebanded other cigar seems too far fetched even for Cuba.

I wonder if we have stumbled upon one if the factors for deletions of multiple identical vitola within a marca, eg all the Punch Corona Gorda bar one being deleted because keeping blend integrity between factories on multiple same-sized cigars that need to be blended very differently was a big issue.

[Ginseng]

Rob,

You've set this thread right, mate. All I can say is that in my own hard-earned experience, clarity where clarity is possible, whether about things of experience or theory, can make all the difference. Thank you!

I've been reading this thread as many of you have and it has been all measures of intrigue, frustration, and contemplation. For me, it has reached it's logical end point.

Wilkey

[Skyfall]

I just read this thread for the first time all of the way through, and I'm fairly certain I got incepted at some point, and then Rob pulled me out of it. Now I'm scared to go to sleep, and I can't find my totem.

[greenpimp]

Great post Rob. The Sir Winstons are likely my favorite churchill, while I have had very few outstanding Esplendidos in the past decade. Perhaps I have been unlucky; however I would take a lancero over it's fatter brother any day.

As far as similarities between cigars within one marca, versus between cigars of the same vitola... it is an interesting contradiction. (Not withstanding Cuba filling quotas and even slapping bands on a differing cigar.)

A slightly wise and very cantakerous person on some site more than a decade ago put forth the proposition that often cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their marca. I think this is a very interesting distinction, and with puros it has borne out to have some accuracy. A Cuban churchill will often behave more like a churchill, regardless of "brand," then its related robusto from the same marca.

[maverickdrinker]

I think this thread demonstrates the importance of having the opportunity to look at boxes prior to purchasing, in terms of assessing quality of construction, wrapper and aroma.

Many do not have the ability to head to Havana to 'get insight' on which factories are rolling well and, in turn, which boxes to buy. Nothing is more invaluable than getting a person 'in the know' to help you with purchases and help assess where to put your hard earned money. This is something I've valued over time as there is nothing more disappointing than a bad cigar.

In any event, I also think it lends credence to the value that Rob brings to his clients by personally inspecting boxes and sharing his view on them. I am unaware of another internet fender that does this. (Full disclosure, I rarely order cigars online). Could you potentially get that particular box of cigars cheaper? Debatable. Having the comfort that you had 'eyes on the ground, inspecting them on your behalf and giving you the straight goods? Priceless.

Overall, I understand Eddie's view that it takes years of capital, discovery, assessment and knowledge to make sense of how things come to be in Cuba due to the inconsistencies mentioned in the post. The best thing one can do is to share knowledge and have respectful debate in order to collectively move forward.

Thanks to all involved for sparking up a great dialogue on this.

[Skyfall]

I for one have smoked a ton of Sir Winston's and likewise Esplendidos (along with many other churchills), and I can say based on my personal evidence and experience only, that I have never had a Sir Winston that remotely even came close to the same flavor profiles as any esplendido has. In regard to the Connie A, I find it unique to the Marca, and really a novel flavor profile to HU, but the HU DNA is clearly there! (unlike mag 48). I do find however that the Connie A and SW are the closest in similar tasting profile.

I also want to throw my 2 cents in on the subject that has been pointed out here or at least alluded to, and that is

experienced smokers and collectors offering "free" advice and opinions to other brothers and sisters in the hobby

VS.

Making those learn on their own or some kind of "paying their dues" program before they are allowed to discuss and be privy to the opinions and experiences of the rest of us.

And, when this subject is being discussed, it really misses the whole point of why most of us love this hobby and are passionate about it to begin with.

KNOWEDGE IS FREE!!!!!! Share it thusly! Don't take this so seriously. Share what you know and have learned, don't be on here "trying to teach other people lessons and fables"!

[Orion21]

I will be the one to say it . . .

This is not directed at anyone inpaerticular, but if buying and smoking cigars gets to the point of this type of discussion I think you have lost a lot of perspective about the hobby. To me smoking cigars is about relaxing, enjoying the company of others and brotherhood. If I am smoking a Esplendido that is really an RyJ, or a Sir Winston that is really an Esplendido I could really care less. As long as I enjoy it and the time with others it doesn't really matter. I see this all the time with wine people. They get so wrapped up in thinking about everything associated with drinking the wine (flavors, tannin etc.) they forget to enjoy drinking the wine!

I appreciate Eddie's insight and Rob's clarification. It's interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes, but most of what was debated is not under anyone's control. It solidifies my opinion, that I have debated with others on other forums, that using someone like Rob is essential if you want to get the maximum value for your money! Especially if you don't have access to Havana or a good LCDH. Even then, Rob's experience inspecting stock can't be underscored enough, and it's the core of what Eddie was trying to explain. It would take decades of experience to replicate what Rob and crew provide with as little as a short e-mail.

[stargazer14]

Until I got to page 5, I was starting to wonder if I could get those 15 mins of my life back...

[helix]

Well, alright then , smoke em if you got em.

[Colt45]

If I am smoking a Esplendido that is really an RyJ, or a Sir Winston that is really an Esplendido I could really care less. As long as I enjoy it and the time with others it doesn't really matter.

In many ways I agree, but purely for conversation, why then bother with "brands" at all? If we are being sold X, shouldn't we expect X, and not Z? From another angle, let's say you have a favorite producer who's cigars you truly enjoy. Would you prefer, every year, that they produce the best possible cigars they can, with the material available regardless of year to year flavor consistency, or try as best as possible to maintain "brand identity" every harvest, whether or not they had the material to do so?

[pbibby]

I agree with both to an extent. I just want a great experience. I don't care if that's Cohiba or HdM or whatever, I just want it to be good. I want consistency too because if I know that great experience come from H Upmann, then I want true Upmann. I don't want them to start tasting like something I don't like, because then I'll have wasted my money on Upmann. I hope that makes sense.

[Skyfall]

If only....

Having been on several forums I've never experienced the total free flow of knowledge. Sure there is some sharing to a certain point but there are always cliques and sub cliques that protect knowledge like it is a matter of national security. And unless you know the secret handshake there's much knowledge available that you may never learn. Knowing something that you don't makes some people feel special I guess.

Right,

Just think if every time someone posted about a Humidor, Temperature or Humidity question and Ray (Pigfish) told everyone to go find out on their own and never took his generous time to answer everyone's questions with such detail and attention. That's what this is all about. Gaining knowledge from others is important, it can never replace the benefits of gaining through your own personal experiences, but it is an imperative benefit and advantage to have, in addition to personal experience. Luckily there are many here who take the charge as so, and help, advise and educate whenever is needed.

We are community remember.

Definition:

Community - a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.

It's not just another forum, it is a community of fellowship. We should feel obligated to help others in our community here,just like we should in our respective hometowns in that community there.

[Guest rob]

Good post my man.

[Ginseng]

I just want a great experience. I don't care if that's Cohiba or HdM or whatever, I just want it to be good. I want consistency too because if I know that great experience come from H Upmann, then I want true Upmann.

Right on point, my man. So much truth in so few words.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

If only....

Having been on several forums I've never experienced the total free flow of knowledge. Sure there is some sharing to a certain point but there are always cliques and sub cliques that protect knowledge like it is a matter of national security. And unless you know the secret handshake there's much knowledge available that you may never learn. Knowing something that you don't makes some people feel special I guess.

Precisely so. I have experienced the same. Public, private, or secret; it has been the same. But I have never seen that here...or seen it tolerated for more than a moment here at FOH. Rob and the tone he sets here is the reason why.

From a more charitable perspective, I would offer that sometimes people behave in this way because they may not know what knowledge they should "protect." Back in the day, it was never as easy as it is today to obtain and experience Habanos with such confidence. Once learned, once earned, it was socialized into the receiver to guard it. Old traditions die hard.

Also, if one is unsure of the quality of the knowledge one holds, one might be inclined to be evasive, elliptical, or obfuscatory in order to hide this. You know, like using SAT words I suspect that the number of people who hold truly sensitive information are few and far between. A handful. But with extremely few exceptions, it is never shared with anyone outside of face-to-face.

Ah well, just rambling I supposed. But man, some really good points and comments made in the last page here. Good for the reading and good for the noodling.

Wilkey

[ewipper]

I will be the one to say it . . .

This is not directed at anyone inpaerticular, but if buying and smoking cigars gets to the point of this type of discussion I think you have lost a lot of perspective about the hobby. To me smoking cigars is about relaxing, enjoying the company of others and brotherhood. If I am smoking a Esplendido that is really an RyJ, or a Sir Winston that is really an Esplendido I could really care less. As long as I enjoy it and the time with others it doesn't really matter. I see this all the time with wine people. They get so wrapped up in thinking about everything associated with drinking the wine (flavors, tannin etc.) they forget to enjoy drinking the wine!

I appreciate Eddie's insight and Rob's clarification. It's interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes, but most of what was debated is not under anyone's control. It solidifies my opinion, that I have debated with others on other forums, that using someone like Rob is essential if you want to get the maximum value for your money! Especially if you don't have access to Havana or a good LCDH. Even then, Rob's experience inspecting stock can't be underscored enough, and it's the core of what Eddie was trying to explain. It would take decades of experience to replicate what Rob and crew provide with as little as a short e-mail.

One thing we can agree on is that Rob is fantastic both for his expertise, good sense and levity.

I will say this, that is for me, coming to the answers myself is part of the journey and the satisfaction of the hobby. Imposing answers, rather than making observations, takes the fun out of the journey.

Part of this hobby is social, but there are other fun things, including the rigorous discussion and analysis in the hunt and chase for something you love. And solving a good mystery. Some might find the intellectual exercise relaxing.

Say what you want about cigar aficionado, but you have to love the intellectual pursuit of cigars to pour cigar smoke in your mouth five times a day before you get to smoke for pleasure. And believe it or not they do that too.