General Stuff in Life Poll: Your one & only sports GOAT

[MoeFOH]

Poll: The GOAT argument...

Camp A: You can 100% objectively name a GOAT in a specific sport via stats, etc. 

Camp B: You definitely cannot name a GOAT because subjective bias, different eras, rules, etc., make comparisons impossible.

Whichever camp you're in, give us your GOAT / Closest to GOAT status if you had to choose. Pick your one & only (i.e. your best example of). 

Vote & Discuss below.  

[GVan]

My number one GOAT is Michael Jordan. I was in the Chicago suburbs during the Bulls Championship years - even went to a few playoff games. In the beginning, when he didn't have any team around him he'd score 50+ points. Later, when he had the team, he'd still have some 40+ point games. Through all those years we heard about how intense he was and "The Last Dance" documentary gave the proof many years later. Even Shaquille O'Neal has recently said Michael was the GOAT.

Best of all - Michael was a cigar smoker during all those championship years !!!

[BoliDan]

Just stats is a hard call. I mean, you need to take in the competition they had at the time. For example Mike Tyson has been given a lot of grief for not coming up at a time when there was multiple legends. But then again even Tyson would Ali is the GOAT.

Then there's problem with positions. We can call Tom Brady the GOAT of US football, but is that fair to running backs or defensive positions? They have completely different roles, and QBs are just in the position to stack stats, where as others are not. 

Is Bobby Orr the GOAT of hockey? Id say yes, but again that's not fair to goalies who may have excelled in their position well beyond other but just aren't in a place to stack stats. 

Lebron vs Jordan? Lebron has more records mostly because he does both defense and offense. But how would it go if they played each other in their prime. Steph Curry might walk over both of them in a one on one due to his jump shot and ridiculous indefensible arch. 

So, yes I can call my GOATs but its mostly because of my bias.

[Montezüma]

Unpopular Opinions:

🐐 -Trigger Warning-

Football: Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Boxing: Prince Naseem

Racing: Niki Lauda

[Dlowil]

My criteria for GOAT

1. Dominance
2. Skill
3. Competitive Resume
4. Influence & Legacy
5. Intangibles ( work ethic, mindset, leadership)


MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN

[tbelle7]

It’s easier in some sports than in others. There have only been two athletes in my lifetime (Brady, MJ) that you could definitively say were the GOAT in their respective sport by any standard of measure. 
 

[JohnS]

The best sportsman in the modern era is without a doubt Sir Donald Bradman. If you aren't aware, he was a Test Cricketer who had a batting average that was a little over 1.6 times higher than very other player who has played the game since 1877 (when the game was formalised in modern times to be played between nations) and batted at least in 20 innings. He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his services to cricket the year after he retired in 1949. He remains the only Australian cricketer to be knighted.

So how does he compare to other sports starts of the modern game? According to his Wikipedia page, there is an interesting segment on Charles Davis' statistical analysis of the standard deviation in comparison to the mean (or average) for each game...

Wisden hailed Bradman as "the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games". Statistician Charles Davis analysed the statistics for several prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations that they stand above the mean for their sport. The top performers in his selected sports are:

Athlete	Sport	Statistic	Standard deviations
Bradman	Cricket	Batting Average	4.4
Pelé	Association football	Goals per game	3.7
Ty Cobb	Baseball	Batting average	3.6
Jack Nicklaus	Golf	Major Titles	3.5
Michael Jordan	Basketball	Points per game	3.4

The statistics show that "no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket". In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game over their career. The respective records are .366 and 30.1.

When Bradman died, Time allocated a space in its "Milestones" column for an obituary:

...Australian icon considered by many to be the pre-eminent sportsman of all time...One of Australia's most beloved heroes, he was revered abroad as well. When Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison, his first question to an Australian visitor was, "Is Sir Donald Bradman still alive?"

Below is some footage of his batting technique enhanced in colour and upgraded to 4K quality. Enjoy!

[JohnS]

But Donald Bradman is only the best sportsman of the modern era! What about in the past? Well that would have to be none other than Gaius Appuleius Diocles. Never heard of him? Of course not. Trust me, read on below and you'd scarcely believe what this Charioteer was able to achieve in Roman times in the second century AD...

The Story of the Wealthiest Athlete in History: Gaius Appuleius Diocles

By Justin Brown

In a world where modern athletes like Michael Jordan, LeBron James, or Mike Tyson capture headlines and acquire massive fortunes, there exists a historical figure whose wealth and fame dwarf even the most celebrated sports icons of our time.

His name was Gaius Appuleius Diocles. He was a legendary Roman charioteer whose fortune remains unrivaled. He became one of the highest-paid athletes in world history.

Diocles was renowned for his unbelievably sizable wealth. He transcended the boundaries of his era. His earnings estimates add up to a staggering fortune that would rival even the most prosperous individuals in the ancient world.

Incredibly, it would even make modern athletes’ billion-dollar endorsement deals look pitifully small in comparison.

Through the thunderous roar of the Roman circus, Diocles navigated his chariot through perilous races. He seized victory after victory.

The story of Gaius Appuleius Diocles is centered on the fascinating intersection of sports, wealth, and fame. It unveils the enigma behind his rise to prominence, delving into his early life, astounding racing achievements, and the lavish rewards that accompanied his success.

Embark on a journey to ancient Rome as we uncover the legacy of Gaius Appuleius Diocles and the enduring allure of the wealthiest athlete of all time.

The Roman Circus and Chariot Racing

In ancient Rome, grand spectacles unfolded before the eyes of a quarter-million fervent spectators. The Circus Maximus was the center of entertainment.

This colossal chariot-racing stadium surpassed all other sporting events in popularity. It eclipsed even the allure of gladiatorial combat and naval battles.

It became the gathering place for the masses. It drew both awe and deep chagrin from playwrights whose stage plays paled in comparison.

As the racing enthusiasts converged upon the Circus Maximus, an air of anticipation filled the atmosphere. Spectators would arrive the night before, vying for prime seats to witness the heart-stopping races.

The chariot drivers typically hailed from the lower echelons of society. They were aligned with teams that represented businesses that invested heavily in horse training and equipment upkeep. The drivers donned vibrant team jerseys, sporting the names of the Reds, Blues, Whites, and Greens.

They were often armed with leather helmets, shin guards, chest protectors, whips, and curved knives for self-defense and strategic maneuvers. Races would commence with the drop of the emperor’s napkin, while referees attempted to maintain order from horseback.

In a display of skill, bravery, and sheer determination, the charioteers navigated their four-horse chariots through seven savage laps around the stadium. The victors of these exhilarating races would ascend to legendary status, like today’s star athletes.

One among them, in particular.

Early Life and Racing Career

Gaius Appuleius Diocles was born in 104 AD. He hailed from the Roman province of Lusitania (Portugal). He entered the exhilarating world of chariot racing at the tender age of 18, in the year 122 AD.

His early races with the Whites racing stable yielded no victories. But it wasn’t long before Diocles showcased his exceptional talent and began etching his name into the annals of racing history.

Diocles quickly became a mainstay at the Circus Maximus, where he built his illustrious career.

From early on it was clear that his specialty was the singles races. This was a race type that captivated both drivers and spectators alike. Drivers competed individually instead of as teams and relied on their own skill and a touch of luck.

He had stints with both the Whites and Greens before finding his home with the Reds. He mesmerized audiences with his signature move—a powerful final dash.

In all, Diocles won an astonishing 1,064 times in the singles category alone. He emerged victorious in an incredible 1,462 out of 4,257 four-horse chariot races. This secured his status as a racing legend.

Notably, he dominated the prestigious race that followed the grand ceremonial opening procession. This was known as the Pompa circensis. He won this an astonishing 110 times.

Artist depiction of a Roman chariot race

Diocles’ Success and Wealth

Gaius Appuleius Diocles achieved unparalleled success and amassed a staggering fortune during his illustrious, record-shattering career. He competed for a remarkable 24 years and left a powerful mark on the sport and the whole of the Roman Empire.

He also emerged in the aftermath as what some historians have considered to be the highest-paid athlete of all time.

In total, Diocles accumulated a mind-boggling sum of 35,863,120 sesterces in career earnings. This was evidenced by an engraving on a monumental inscription erected in Rome.

It’s uncertain exactly how much of these earnings Gaius would have been paid directly. Slave-charioteers would have had their winnings kept by their management teams, and Diocles’ status is unknown to modern historians.

Either way, this astounding wealth would have surpassed the career earnings of the highest-paid provincial governor. It was technically enough to provide grain for the entire city of Rome for a whole year.

By today’s standards, his prize money would equate to approximately $15 billion USD, a remarkable feat of financial success.

Diocles’ Legacy and Impact

Diocles’ enduring career spanned affiliations with three of the most renowned chariot racing stables in Rome: the Whites, Greens, and Reds.

He had a brief and less successful stint with the Green team. There, his opportunities were restricted. But Diocles thrived during his 15-year tenure with the Reds.

His accomplishments on the track, combined with his incomparable earnings, solidified his status as a racing legend. Upon retiring at the age of 42, Diocles retreated to the opulent town of Praeneste to enjoy the fruits of his extraordinary wealth.

After Gaius Appuleius Diocles raced his last chariot at the age of 42, his legacy as a sporting icon endured.

His influence extended beyond the racing track. He captured the imagination of poets and artists who immortalized his exploits through their works. Graffiti artists even scrawled crude renderings of his face on walls throughout the Mediterranean.

His achievements were so remarkable that even today, as we’ve mentioned, it is likely that Diocles is the highest-paid athlete of all time. 

Moreover, his story serves as a window into the extravagant and awe-inspiring spectacles of ancient Rome. His incomparable wealth and fame showcased the immense popularity and cultural significance of chariot racing in Roman society.

As the greatest charioteer of his time, Gaius Appuleius Diocles left an enduring legacy that continues to fascinate and captivate modern readers and historians.

References

Lorenzi, Rossella. “Richest Athlete Hailed from Ancient Rome.” NBCNews.com, September 1, 2010. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38957186.

Struck, Peter. “Greatest of All Time.” Lapham’s Quarterly, August 2, 2010. https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/greatest-all-time.

Zarley, B. David. “The Fifteen Billion Dollar Athlete.” VICE, March 23, 2015. https://www.vice.com/en/article/nzpgaq/the-fifteen-billion-dollar-athlete.

Source: https://www.historydefined.net/gaius-appuleius-diocles/

[zaca]

11 hours ago, BoliDan said:

Just stats is a hard call. I mean, you need to take in the competition they had at the time. For example Mike Tyson has been given a lot of grief for not coming up at a time when there was multiple legends. But then again even Tyson would Ali is the GOAT.

Then there's problem with positions. We can call Tom Brady the GOAT of US football, but is that fair to running backs or defensive positions? They have completely different roles, and QBs are just in the position to stack stats, where as others are not. 

Is Bobby Orr the GOAT of hockey? Id say yes, but again that's not fair to goalies who may have excelled in their position well beyond other but just aren't in a place to stack stats. 

Lebron vs Jordan? Lebron has more records mostly because he does both defense and offense. But how would it go if they played each other in their prime. Steph Curry might walk over both of them in a one on one due to his jump shot and ridiculous indefensible arch. 

So, yes I can call my GOATs but its mostly because of my bias.

Sorry, the premise of LeBron playing both offense and defense and Jordan didn’t is factually incorrect. Jordan won Defensive Player of The Year, in addition to multiple MVPs. Only 5 players have won MVP/DPOY and LeBron isn’t one of them. He’s not known as a great defensive player at all and Jordan was. Offensively, LeBron is a facilitator and Jordan is a scorer.

Not to mention LeBron's stats are padded largely by the fact that he’s played such a long time and remained relatively healthy + the rule changes over the last 15 years that have made it significantly easier for the offense. If prime Jordan was playing today’s game, he’d average over 40 a night.

BTW, Curry would get waxed by either one of them in 1:1. If they started out with the ball, both of them would shut him out because he doesn’t have a prayer of stopping them. But either of them could disrupt his shot enough that he couldn’t do the same.

[Chucko8]

Kelly Slater for surfing. A laureus sport lifetime achievement award this year gives credence.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJldQFSNlM6/?igsh=MXIxMTl3b2hoaGpmdA==

[Ruggerpgh99]

I think, in many sports, you can still define a goat, but in some, its getting much harder. Is Tiger or Jack the greatest golfer of all time (Tiger)? Sure Tom Brady has rings, but, I would say that Jerry Rice, is a better football player. Is Jonah Lomu the greatest rugby player of all time? 

I like the use of standard deviations from @JohnS however, I think there are more statistics that can be used to work on those details. I don't have the patience to do the math on a lot of these, but for golf, I think there is more to be done than just Majors, including total wins, and margin of victory, would also do well to provide more statistics on the GOAT debates. I feel like distilling it into one specific catagory for Standard deviations is limiting the argument. 

[bassistheplace]

Jack

[ltte]

Since football (soccer) is the most popular sport worldwide with billions of fans the GOAT can be only Edson Arantes do Nascimento - Pele. Most successful is Michael Fred Phelps (28 Olympics medals and 39 world records).

Ltte

[gormag38]

23 minutes ago, bassistheplace said:

Jack

While the majors, runner ups, top ten finishes etc would agree with you, I think I would still have to take Tiger as the GOAT. Overall Tiger has a better winning percentage and more wins. But the dominance that we saw with Tiger (eg. holding all four majors at once, the 2000/01 seasons alone, time spent as World Number 1) was something unparalleled. Truly changed the game; much like a Jordan, Curry, Gretzky.

[joeypots]

Rather than write this my self I used the free version of Chat GBT. Talking Basketball.

Bill Russell's case for GOAT status is overwhelming:

11 NBA Championships in 13 seasons — unmatched in team sports.

2 championships as a player-coach — a feat no one else has replicated at that level.

Olympic Gold Medal (1956) — dominating the world stage.

NCAA Championship (1956) — immediately followed by an NBA title (1957).

First Black Head Coach in NBA history — breaking racial barriers in a transformative way.

Triple Crown (NCAA, NBA, Olympic Gold) — achieved by only a few elite.

Redefined Defense — changed how the center position was played; his shot-blocking, rebounding, and leadership were generational.

Comparing with Michael Jordan:

6 NBA Championships in 15 seasons

10 scoring titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs

Undefeated in NBA Finals (6–0 record)

Cultural icon — elevated the NBA globally, became a branding phenomenon.

Key Perspective:

Saying “Different eras do not produce different GOATs” is a profound take. If the criteria is total impact, success, leadership, and legacy, then Bill Russell is not just a contender—he's arguably the GOAT.

Michael Jordan revolutionized scoring, marketing, and individual excellence. Bill Russell revolutionized winning, team defense, and social progress.

Both are giants, but if rings and leadership define greatness, it’s hard to put anyone above Russell.

[chasy]

MJ and I’ll fight you if you don’t agree.

[Goldeneye]

Not a tennis fan at all, but for me the clearest example of a GOAT is Serena Williams. Total domination of the sport for a long period of time.

[BrightonCorgi]

Eddy Merckx is the most dominant GOAT for the sport he competed in.

He won 525 races out of the 1,800 he competed in.This means he won approximately 29% of all the races he entered.  

.

[Dlowil]

11 hours ago, chasy said:

MJ and I’ll fight you if you don’t agree.

[chasy]

If we're talking Division 3 basketball all time role players? I'll throw my name in the ring...

[El Hoze]

3 hours ago, Chucko8 said:

Kelly Slater for surfing. A laureus sport lifetime achievement award this year gives credence.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJldQFSNlM6/?igsh=MXIxMTl3b2hoaGpmdA==

Kelly Slater for sure. I now live about an hour south of Cocoa Beach, I grew up surfing in NJ and never fully appreciated the surfing legacy from Melbourne to Cocoa until I moved here. Pretty cool. God status for Kelly. 

I had the pleasure of snowboarding and hanging out a bit with Travis Rice, arguably on the very short list (IMO) as the GOAT in snowboarding and still absolutely ripping (I grew up thinking Craig Kelly and Terje were the biggest studs ever so I can play all sides of the argument). 

[El Niño]

Total left fielder: Janja Garnbret is completely untouchable in competitive rock climbing right now. 

[BG318]

Ditka.

[GVan]

11 hours ago, joeypots said:

Rather than write this my self I used the free version of Chat GBT. Talking Basketball.

Bill Russell's case for GOAT status is overwhelming:

11 NBA Championships in 13 seasons — unmatched in team sports.

2 championships as a player-coach — a feat no one else has replicated at that level.

Olympic Gold Medal (1956) — dominating the world stage.

NCAA Championship (1956) — immediately followed by an NBA title (1957).

First Black Head Coach in NBA history — breaking racial barriers in a transformative way.

Triple Crown (NCAA, NBA, Olympic Gold) — achieved by only a few elite.

Redefined Defense — changed how the center position was played; his shot-blocking, rebounding, and leadership were generational.

Comparing with Michael Jordan:

6 NBA Championships in 15 seasons

10 scoring titles, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs

Undefeated in NBA Finals (6–0 record)

Cultural icon — elevated the NBA globally, became a branding phenomenon.

Key Perspective:

Saying “Different eras do not produce different GOATs” is a profound take. If the criteria is total impact, success, leadership, and legacy, then Bill Russell is not just a contender—he's arguably the GOAT.

Michael Jordan revolutionized scoring, marketing, and individual excellence. Bill Russell revolutionized winning, team defense, and social progress.

Both are giants, but if rings and leadership define greatness, it’s hard to put anyone above Russell.

I think the Bill Russell versus Michael Jordan is a very good debate!  Maybe we should add Wilt Chamberlain's stats along with his claim of sleeping with 20K women. Even if his claims are half true, he'd be a GOAT on that stat alone.

[BG318]

4 hours ago, GVan said:

I think the Bill Russell versus Michael Jordan is a very good debate!  Maybe we should add Wilt Chamberlain's stats along with his claim of sleeping with 20K women. Even if his claims are half true, he'd be a GOAT on that stat alone. 

Today's porn stars would probably smoke the Stilt. Their conditioning is superior, and it has really become a players game. It used to be all for the love of the game. Different eras.