General Stuff in Life - GOAT  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it possible to definitively name a GOAT in a specific sport?

    • Yes - you can 100% objectively name a GOAT in a specific sport via stats, etc. 
    • No - you definitely cannot name a GOAT because subjective bias, different eras, rules, etc., make comparisons impossible.

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  • Poll closed on 07/15/2025 at 01:59 PM

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Posted

Boxing- Ali

Hoops- Jordan

Baseball- Mays

Football- Rice

Hockey- Gretz

MMA- GSP/Fedor

Wrestling- The Nature Boy WHOOOOOOOO!!!

But the all time GOAT??

 

Arnold Schwarzenegger

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My criteria for GOAT 1. Dominance 2. Skill 3. Competitive Resume 4. Influence & Legacy 5. Intangibles ( work ethic, mindset, leadership) MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN

The best sportsman in the modern era is without a doubt Sir Donald Bradman. If you aren't aware, he was a Test Cricketer who had a batting average that was a little over 1.6 times higher than very oth

My number one GOAT is Michael Jordan. I was in the Chicago suburbs during the Bulls Championship years - even went to a few playoff games. In the beginning, when he didn't have any team around him he'

Posted

I’m in camp B. I think it’s impossible to objectively name a GOAT, especially in team sports. 

My GOAT is Tiger. He played the game in a way that nobody thought was possible. He had all the tools: skill, power, artistry, nerves of steel, and touch. 

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Posted
11 hours ago, Ford2112 said:

Boxing- Ali

Hoops- Jordan

Baseball- Mays

Football- Rice

Hockey- Gretz

MMA- GSP/Fedor

Wrestling- The Nature Boy WHOOOOOOOO!!!

But the all time GOAT??

 

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Tell me you've watched the Arnold documentary (on Netflix)? He is the man.

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Posted
2 hours ago, BoliDan said:

That's not how you spell Bobby Orr. Let's add in defense l stats as well.

You are both spelling Mario Lemieux incorrectly. 

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Posted
4 hours ago, chasy said:

Tell me you've watched the Arnold documentary (on Netflix)? He is the man.

Yes he is. 

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Posted

Another vote for the Great One.🏆

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Posted
4 hours ago, LaoFan said:
Thought about this for a few days...

Naming the goat of any individual sport is hard enough. here's my list of people who do that:
  • Basketball - MJ (although if Lebron wasn't such an attention seeking non-cool dweeb, he had the natural gifts and brain to surpass him... but he was too focused on trying to be as cool as MJ... not in the same universe)
  • Tennis - Serena Williams.
  • Track - Usain Bolt. The guy was talking shit and jogging into the finish line and still set the world record.
  • Swimming - Michael Phelps
  • Soccer - Messi.
  • F1 - Hamilton. (I should be at the Singapore GP if anyone will be in town)
  • Football - Tom Brady (and I grew up in a Mormon household watching Steve Young throw TD after TD to Jerry Rice. But leaving Bill and winning in TB is the nail)
  • Boxing - I'm biased towards Tyson. Actually an intelligent dude.. but just loved to partying and making bad decisions too much. (I know it's Ali... for the same reason Jordan. Rumble in the Jungle might be the greatest sporting event of all time)
  • Hockey - Gretzky. Not even close.
  • Golf - Tiger. If he hadn't been such a sex addict, nobody would even be questioning this... they still shouldnt.
  • MMA - Jon Jones
All that said... the GOAT of GOATS?
I also don't think it's that close.
MJ.
Forget the records. Forget 6 finals appearances, 6 championships, and 6 finals MVPs. Forget never needing a game 7. Forget 5 reg season MVPs, 10x scoring champ, for the bobby orr comments above... Jordan also made 9 all-defense first teams.
He transcended his sport in a way no one else ever has. He made basketball bigger than basketball.
Before Jordan, the NBA was a U.S.-centric league with pockets of hype.
After Jordan? It was a global religion. He turned the game into a movement — a cultural force that swept through Asia, Europe, and playgrounds in every corner of the world.
Soccer had Pele and Maradona, but soccer was that already... long ago.
Basketball became international because of MJ, not Bill Russell, not Kareem, not even Bird or Magic — and I say that with all the love and reverence of a kid raised by a dad who stroked corner jumpers like Larry Legend himself.
I didn’t really feel it until I watched The Last Dance. That doc made it plain: Jordan’s confidence wasn’t ego — it was prophecy.
He knew he was the standard, and he walked it, talked it, and cashed every check his aura wrote.
And in case this forum needed further reason to pick him... let’s be real — the man smokes how many cubans a day?
He's probably the most iconic cigar smoker alive.
Nobody oozes cool like MJ. On the court, off the court — still the flyest, fiercest, most iconic athlete to ever do it.


And let the church say...Amen!

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Posted
10 hours ago, LaoFan said:

Thought about this for a few days...

Naming the goat of any individual sport is hard enough. here's my list of people who do that:

  • Basketball - MJ (although if Lebron wasn't such an attention seeking non-cool dweeb, he had the natural gifts and brain to surpass him... but he was too focused on trying to be as cool as MJ... not in the same universe)
  • Tennis - Serena Williams.
  • Track - Usain Bolt. The guy was talking shit and jogging into the finish line and still set the world record.
  • Swimming - Michael Phelps
  • Soccer - Messi.
  • F1 - Hamilton. (I should be at the Singapore GP if anyone will be in town)
  • Football - Tom Brady (and I grew up in a Mormon household watching Steve Young throw TD after TD to Jerry Rice. But leaving Bill and winning in TB is the nail)
  • Boxing - I'm biased towards Tyson. Actually an intelligent dude.. but just loved to partying and making bad decisions too much. (I know it's Ali... for the same reason Jordan. Rumble in the Jungle might be the greatest sporting event of all time)
  • Hockey - Gretzky. Not even close.
  • Golf - Tiger. If he hadn't been such a sex addict, nobody would even be questioning this... they still shouldnt.
  • MMA - Jon Jones

All that said... the GOAT of GOATS?

I also don't think it's that close.

MJ.

Forget the records. Forget 6 finals appearances, 6 championships, and 6 finals MVPs. Forget never needing a game 7. Forget 5 reg season MVPs, 10x scoring champ, for the bobby orr comments above... Jordan also made 9 all-defense first teams.

He transcended his sport in a way no one else ever has. He made basketball bigger than basketball.

Before Jordan, the NBA was a U.S.-centric league with pockets of hype.

After Jordan? It was a global religion. He turned the game into a movement — a cultural force that swept through Asia, Europe, and playgrounds in every corner of the world.

Soccer had Pele and Maradona, but soccer was that already... long ago.

Basketball became international because of MJ, not Bill Russell, not Kareem, not even Bird or Magic — and I say that with all the love and reverence of a kid raised by a dad who stroked corner jumpers like Larry Legend himself.

I didn’t really feel it until I watched The Last Dance. That doc made it plain: Jordan’s confidence wasn’t ego — it was prophecy.

He knew he was the standard, and he walked it, talked it, and cashed every check his aura wrote.

And in case this forum needed further reason to pick him... let’s be real — the man smokes how many cubans a day?

He's probably the most iconic cigar smoker alive.

Nobody oozes cool like MJ. On the court, off the court — still the flyest, fiercest, most iconic athlete to ever do it.

Dead on! What a great read. I’m a big F1 fan and Lewis is without doubt the greatest race driver ever, period. Might take Gretzky over MJ though it’s damn close and you make one helluva case for Michael. 

Posted

Oh and Simone Biles! Talk about "not even close". 

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Posted
On 7/8/2025 at 10:05 PM, Ruggerpgh99 said:

I think, in many sports, you can still define a goat, but in some, its getting much harder. Is Tiger or Jack the greatest golfer of all time (Tiger)? Sure Tom Brady has rings, but, I would say that Jerry Rice, is a better football player. Is Jonah Lomu the greatest rugby player of all time? 

I like the use of standard deviations from @JohnS however, I think there are more statistics that can be used to work on those details. I don't have the patience to do the math on a lot of these, but for golf, I think there is more to be done than just Majors, including total wins, and margin of victory, would also do well to provide more statistics on the GOAT debates. I feel like distilling it into one specific catagory for Standard deviations is limiting the argument. 

Jonah lomu was a phenomenon but no chance he is the best rugby player of all time. long debate about who, but as good as he was, not sure anyone is suggesting Jonah. 

Posted
On 7/8/2025 at 7:25 PM, JohnS said:

The best sportsman in the modern era is without a doubt Sir Donald Bradman. If you aren't aware, he was a Test Cricketer who had a batting average that was a little over 1.6 times higher than very other player who has played the game since 1877 (when the game was formalised in modern times to be played between nations) and batted at least in 20 innings. He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his services to cricket the year after he retired in 1949. He remains the only Australian cricketer to be knighted.

So how does he compare to other sports starts of the modern game? According to his Wikipedia page, there is an interesting segment on Charles Davis' statistical analysis of the standard deviation in comparison to the mean (or average) for each game...

Wisden hailed Bradman as "the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games". Statistician Charles Davis analysed the statistics for several prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations that they stand above the mean for their sport. The top performers in his selected sports are:

Athlete Sport Statistic Standard
deviations
Bradman Cricket Batting Average       4.4    
Pelé Association football Goals per game 3.7
Ty Cobb  Baseball Batting average 3.6
Jack Nicklaus  Golf Major Titles        3.5    
Michael Jordan  Basketball Points per game 3.4

The statistics show that "no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket". In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game over their career. The respective records are .366 and 30.1.

When Bradman died, Time allocated a space in its "Milestones" column for an obituary:

...Australian icon considered by many to be the pre-eminent sportsman of all time...One of Australia's most beloved heroes, he was revered abroad as well. When Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison, his first question to an Australian visitor was, "Is Sir Donald Bradman still alive?"

Below is some footage of his batting technique enhanced in colour and upgraded to 4K quality. Enjoy!

john, so glad you posted this. 

i am a massive fan of Jordan, of Ali, of Pele and a few others - Wally Lewis when it comes to rugby league. 

but there can be no doubt that the all time goat was bradman. no one comes close. 

i see one of our friends posted MJ as the all time goat yet even in this small sample, i have seen the names russell, lebron, walt proposed as well as MJ. personally, i think MJ for basketball, but if you cannot agree on the best in a sport, how the hell can he be the all time greatest. makes no sense.

aside from an occasional drunk imbecile, no one has ever challenged bradman. the greatest cricketer without question and he dominated it by so much. anyone who watched the video saw Thommo at the end. consider that Thommo is probably the fastest bowler ever to play the game and he is in awe, bowling to a 78 year old. greg chappell mentioned another great quick, Ray Lindwall, talking about how good he was. ray was a good mate of my dad's and they played together. there are endless stories we could add. mum actually saw him play. 

bradman far and away. 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:
Jonah lomu was a phenomenon but no chance he is the best rugby player of all time. long debate about who, but as good as he was, not sure anyone is suggesting Jonah. 

An American’s (who lived in NZ for two years) perspective. Jonah Lomu transcended Rugby. Brought my attention to it as a football player in the states. Richie McCaw is who I’d ultimately pick. Brady-esque with dominance, longevity, consistency, leadership, and success. Always cool even in tightest of tests. I was in NZ from 2014-2016. Those years all but cemented his legacy as the goat. The All Blacks haven’t found the same level of consistent success since. They are still Elite. With McCaw they were damn near untouchable.

Posted

a further point when one looks at stars today and from some years ago - the gear. that video of bradman showed him with a bat that today's players would not touch. thin, almost weedy. today's bats are twice the weight and power. protective gear. in another universe. tennis players. look at today's racquets compared to the older ones. ridiculous difference. many other examples. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Dlowil said:


An American’s (who lived in NZ for two years) perspective. Jonah Lomu transcended Rugby. Brought my attention to it as a football player in the states. Richie McCaw is who I’d ultimately pick. Brady esque with dominance, longevity, consistency, leadership, and success. Always cool even in tightest of tests. I was in NZ from 2014-2016. Those years all but cemented his legacy as the goat. The All Blacks haven’t found the same level of consistent success since. They are still Elite. With McCaw they were damnear untouchable.

one of those sports with many contenders. top of head, probably dan carter. he was more important to the all blacks than mccaw, who was another great. eales, loane, Mayfield, mccaw, quite a few forward contenders. campo, horan, carter, lots more backs. i have not even touched the northern hemisphere. 

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Posted
On 7/9/2025 at 12:43 AM, BrightonCorgi said:

Eddy Merckx is the most dominant GOAT for the sport he competed in.

He won 525 races out of the 1,800 he competed in.This means he won approximately 29% of all the races he entered.  

.

with respect, i do not think that comes close to bradman's dominance. or heather mckay. i have to confess i don't even know what sport he competed in. 

Posted
On 7/8/2025 at 11:47 PM, Goldeneye said:

Not a tennis fan at all, but for me the clearest example of a GOAT is Serena Williams. Total domination of the sport for a long period of time.

no argument a great player and a serious contender for goat status, but margaret court dominated women's tennis to an even greater degree. won more slams. and remember, played in an era where the rules insisted she travel alone (unless playing for a national event on behalf of Australia). no coaches, no entourage, no support and no family allowed. how would have the pampered princesses handle that! not that serena was pampered - i stood next to her once at the Aussie Open. she is scary big. 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

with respect, i do not think that comes close to bradman's dominance. or heather mckay. i have to confess i don't even know what sport he competed in. 

i mentioned heather mckay. women's squash (but played other sports as well). between 1960 and 1981, she lost two matches. that was it. that is truly extraordinary and a level of dominance that is unparalleled. 16 British opens. imagine winning 16 wimbledons in a row. when they instigated a world championship, she won that every year till she retired. i forget the exact figure but not only did she lose only two games in twenty years, she almost never lost a set.

during this time, she also played hockey for Australia for quite a few years.

towards the end of her career, she also spent a lot of time in the US and Canada. won the US Amateur Racquetball Championship in 1977 and the Canadian one in 1980 (and 1982, 1983, 1984 and 1985). she also won the US Professional Raquetball Championships in 1980, 1981 and 1984. 

 

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Posted

i see that we have racing car drivers included - for me, way too much relies on the car and the team. but if they can be considered, billiards/snooker. 

Walter Lindrum - 57 world records. won the world championship in 1933 and held it till he retired in 1950. world record break of 4,137. in exhibition matches, he would usually give the opponent 7,000 points start (and these were against his fellow professionals). fastest century break - 46 seconds. fastest 1,000 point break, 28 minutes. holds the record for the largest break in every country in which he played. the administrators actually had to change the rules to try and limit him because he was light years ahead of every other player.  

 

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Posted
On 7/8/2025 at 7:35 PM, JohnS said:

But Donald Bradman is only the best sportsman of the modern era! What about in the past? Well that would have to be none other than Gaius Appuleius Diocles. Never heard of him? Of course not. Trust me, read on below and you'd scarcely believe what this Charioteer was able to achieve in Roman times in the second century AD...

The Story of the Wealthiest Athlete in History: Gaius Appuleius Diocles

By Justin Brown

In a world where modern athletes like Michael Jordan, LeBron James, or Mike Tyson capture headlines and acquire massive fortunes, there exists a historical figure whose wealth and fame dwarf even the most celebrated sports icons of our time.

His name was Gaius Appuleius Diocles. He was a legendary Roman charioteer whose fortune remains unrivaled. He became one of the highest-paid athletes in world history.

Diocles was renowned for his unbelievably sizable wealth. He transcended the boundaries of his era. His earnings estimates add up to a staggering fortune that would rival even the most prosperous individuals in the ancient world.

Incredibly, it would even make modern athletes’ billion-dollar endorsement deals look pitifully small in comparison.

Through the thunderous roar of the Roman circus, Diocles navigated his chariot through perilous races. He seized victory after victory.

The story of Gaius Appuleius Diocles is centered on the fascinating intersection of sports, wealth, and fame. It unveils the enigma behind his rise to prominence, delving into his early life, astounding racing achievements, and the lavish rewards that accompanied his success.

Embark on a journey to ancient Rome as we uncover the legacy of Gaius Appuleius Diocles and the enduring allure of the wealthiest athlete of all time.

The Roman Circus and Chariot Racing

In ancient Rome, grand spectacles unfolded before the eyes of a quarter-million fervent spectators. The Circus Maximus was the center of entertainment.

This colossal chariot-racing stadium surpassed all other sporting events in popularity. It eclipsed even the allure of gladiatorial combat and naval battles.

It became the gathering place for the masses. It drew both awe and deep chagrin from playwrights whose stage plays paled in comparison.

As the racing enthusiasts converged upon the Circus Maximus, an air of anticipation filled the atmosphere. Spectators would arrive the night before, vying for prime seats to witness the heart-stopping races.

The chariot drivers typically hailed from the lower echelons of society. They were aligned with teams that represented businesses that invested heavily in horse training and equipment upkeep. The drivers donned vibrant team jerseys, sporting the names of the Reds, Blues, Whites, and Greens.

They were often armed with leather helmets, shin guards, chest protectors, whips, and curved knives for self-defense and strategic maneuvers. Races would commence with the drop of the emperor’s napkin, while referees attempted to maintain order from horseback.

In a display of skill, bravery, and sheer determination, the charioteers navigated their four-horse chariots through seven savage laps around the stadium. The victors of these exhilarating races would ascend to legendary status, like today’s star athletes.

One among them, in particular.

Early Life and Racing Career

Gaius Appuleius Diocles was born in 104 AD. He hailed from the Roman province of Lusitania (Portugal). He entered the exhilarating world of chariot racing at the tender age of 18, in the year 122 AD.

His early races with the Whites racing stable yielded no victories. But it wasn’t long before Diocles showcased his exceptional talent and began etching his name into the annals of racing history.

Diocles quickly became a mainstay at the Circus Maximus, where he built his illustrious career.

From early on it was clear that his specialty was the singles races. This was a race type that captivated both drivers and spectators alike. Drivers competed individually instead of as teams and relied on their own skill and a touch of luck.

He had stints with both the Whites and Greens before finding his home with the Reds. He mesmerized audiences with his signature move—a powerful final dash.

In all, Diocles won an astonishing 1,064 times in the singles category alone. He emerged victorious in an incredible 1,462 out of 4,257 four-horse chariot races. This secured his status as a racing legend.

Notably, he dominated the prestigious race that followed the grand ceremonial opening procession. This was known as the Pompa circensis. He won this an astonishing 110 times.

Diocles’ Success and Wealth

Gaius Appuleius Diocles achieved unparalleled success and amassed a staggering fortune during his illustrious, record-shattering career. He competed for a remarkable 24 years and left a powerful mark on the sport and the whole of the Roman Empire.

He also emerged in the aftermath as what some historians have considered to be the highest-paid athlete of all time.

In total, Diocles accumulated a mind-boggling sum of 35,863,120 sesterces in career earnings. This was evidenced by an engraving on a monumental inscription erected in Rome.

It’s uncertain exactly how much of these earnings Gaius would have been paid directly. Slave-charioteers would have had their winnings kept by their management teams, and Diocles’ status is unknown to modern historians.

Either way, this astounding wealth would have surpassed the career earnings of the highest-paid provincial governor. It was technically enough to provide grain for the entire city of Rome for a whole year.

By today’s standards, his prize money would equate to approximately $15 billion USD, a remarkable feat of financial success.

Diocles’ Legacy and Impact

Diocles’ enduring career spanned affiliations with three of the most renowned chariot racing stables in Rome: the Whites, Greens, and Reds.

He had a brief and less successful stint with the Green team. There, his opportunities were restricted. But Diocles thrived during his 15-year tenure with the Reds.

His accomplishments on the track, combined with his incomparable earnings, solidified his status as a racing legend. Upon retiring at the age of 42, Diocles retreated to the opulent town of Praeneste to enjoy the fruits of his extraordinary wealth.

After Gaius Appuleius Diocles raced his last chariot at the age of 42, his legacy as a sporting icon endured.

His influence extended beyond the racing track. He captured the imagination of poets and artists who immortalized his exploits through their works. Graffiti artists even scrawled crude renderings of his face on walls throughout the Mediterranean.

His achievements were so remarkable that even today, as we’ve mentioned, it is likely that Diocles is the highest-paid athlete of all time. 

Moreover, his story serves as a window into the extravagant and awe-inspiring spectacles of ancient Rome. His incomparable wealth and fame showcased the immense popularity and cultural significance of chariot racing in Roman society.

As the greatest charioteer of his time, Gaius Appuleius Diocles left an enduring legacy that continues to fascinate and captivate modern readers and historians.

References

Lorenzi, Rossella. “Richest Athlete Hailed from Ancient Rome.” NBCNews.com, September 1, 2010. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38957186.

Struck, Peter. “Greatest of All Time.” Lapham’s Quarterly, August 2, 2010. https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/greatest-all-time.

Zarley, B. David. “The Fifteen Billion Dollar Athlete.” VICE, March 23, 2015. https://www.vice.com/en/article/nzpgaq/the-fifteen-billion-dollar-athlete.

Source: https://www.historydefined.net/gaius-appuleius-diocles/

Don Bradman absolutely. Not only was he incomparable on the field. He gave an entire country hope, something to look forward to when times were not so good. Then entire country adored him. Off field, a class act and a gentleman. He was always known to be and always will be our Don Bradman.  

I would put Usain Bolt right up there as well...no one has came close to him. Without debate on that one. In that particular field. 

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