California is first in world to ban new diesel trucks

[Ford2112]

I would think India would be number one with all the cows.

[Corylax18]

18 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

It’s not possible to transition to no diesel trucks anytime this decade because the tech and infrastructure just isn’t there.

Agreed. GM made fools' of themselves paying a career grifter for nothing. The Tesla Truck is a joke. Its usable payload with current battery technology is roughly 1/4 that of a diesel truck, for a similar range. We don't have room for 4x semis on the highways today. There also isn't any battery technology on the horizon that comes close to the energy density of fossil fuels, so we're either looking at far more trucks on the road or drastically reduced range (which would require exponential growth in charging stations) Those electric trucks also wouldn't pay a dime in gas/diesel taxes so they currently would contribute nothing to maintaining the roads they'll be beating up. 

I obviously didn't read every word of the bill, but I haven't seen anything about this bill doing anything to make it easier for private industry to achieve any of these goals. Or mitigating any of the negatives it will create.(like reduction in taxes collected and the resulting neglect to roads) We still haven't gotten to the fact that the majority of energy will still be produced with Fossil fuels in 10-15 years time, so we're really just shuffling around where the emissions are coming from, not eliminating them. 

Again, I dont disagree in the slightest that we need to do something to solve the problem, but this bill doesnt do that, its not even a step in the right direction. 

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

 The Tesla Truck is a joke. Its usable payload with current battery technology is roughly 1/4 that of a diesel truck, for a similar range.

One of our deck crew is CEO of a major international garbage collection corporation. 

They have as part of their fleet 2 electric garbage trucks. They have had to move them to locales that are flat. If there are hills and they are loaded they had a range of under 2 hours. 

Long way to go. 

[SCgarman]

14 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

One of our deck crew is CEO of a major international garbage collection corporation. 

They have as part of their fleet 2 electric garbage trucks. They have had to move them to locales that are flat. If there are hills and they are loaded they had a range of under 2 hours. 

Long way to go. 

Agreed. Here in the US we have a "gov't" attempting to shove EV's down our throats, whether we want them or not. At an average price of 60K, more than 90% of people say "no thanks". If common folks can't afford them/ nor want them, gasoline/diesel vehicles will be around long after my ashes are scattered in the nearby Atlantic ocean.

[El Presidente]

9 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Agreed. Here in the US we have a "gov't" attempting to shove EV's down our throats, whether we want them or not. At an average price of 60K, more than 90% of people say "no thanks". If common folks can't afford them/ nor want them, gasoline/diesel vehicles will be around long after my ashes are scattered in the nearby Atlantic ocean.

Huge push here as well. 

Our number one, two, and four selling vehicles in this country are "pick up trucks".  Until an EV can tow a boat/caravan/tools for 500km/310 miles for the same cost as the current ICE, it is a non starter. 

However the minute they can, it is game over. New sales of  ICE will be legislated out of existence. 

[BrightonCorgi]

Toyota has taken a major step back in the EV race/mandate.  They're the smartest player in the room. 

[MrBirdman]

15 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Here in the US we have a "gov't" attempting to shove EV's down our throats, whether we want them or not. 

I wouldn’t call offering people a tax credit for EVs or building charging stations “shoving them down people’s throats.” Everyone agrees they’re the way of the future, but people have to buy them to warrant the investment in advancing the tech. Last I checked you can still buy a gas car for less than an EV if you want to. 

That said, in states like PA EV drivers are getting a completely free pass on paying for roads by avoiding the gasoline tax (a number of states use a property tax on all cars to at least partially cover that, and some charge EV owners extra to make up for the reduced gas tax revenue). That will have to change eventually - our roads are bad enough as it is. 

 

15 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

I dont disagree in the slightest that we need to do something to solve the problem, but this bill doesnt do that, its not even a step in the right direction. 

I honestly think it’s just to put the industry on notice that they won’t be getting a pass just because they’re very important to the economy (and they are). CA won’t be allowing new gas cars by then either, so it’s an attempt to make clear the rules won’t just apply to regular drivers. They aren’t saying it’ll solve any problems on its own, it’s just one small step.

I definitely won’t argue it’s a huge step or anything, but they have to be giving fair warning at some point. 

[MrBirdman]

37 minutes ago, clint said:

Not everyone agrees that evs are the way of the future.   I mean how "sustainable" is the mining of rare earth minerals used to build these batteries?  Are they an infinite resource?   What is that mining doing to the actual environment?   Are they mining with evs or diesel equipment?   Where do the used up batteries end up when they are exhausted?

While it’s true that batteries do have a carbon imprint (which is vastly outweighed over the life of a car) and the materials are finite, recycling tech has come a long way. Also, fossil fuels aren’t unlimited either. 

[MrBirdman]

8 minutes ago, clint said:

You still believe that oil comes from "fossils"?

Yes. It comes from fossilized plant life. Also Clint, even if that’s a conspiracy too, unless it’s coming from Mary Poppins’ handbag it’s going to run out eventually. 

[BrightonCorgi]

46 minutes ago, clint said:

  I mean how "sustainable" is the mining of rare earth minerals used to build these batteries? 

As long as Africans have a good birth rate, there will always be enough child labor to mine rare earth minerals.

[BrightonCorgi]

Just now, clint said:

So you know what the "carbon imprint" of the recycling process is?

Recycling is primarily a mafia scam to get state and local contracts.  Just like trash collection.

[Cairo]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Recycling is primarily a mafia scam to get state and local contracts. 

A few years ago I worked in a mid-rise building in a small US city (Hartford, CT).   We had those blue recycling bins everywhere in the office.

One day one of my co-workers was overcome with curiosity and decided to stay late and see what actually happened to those blue bins.

They "spied" on the after hours janitorial staff and watched them mix all the blue bin contents into the huge regular garbage bins in the loading dock area.

Obviously this is just an anecdote for one building fwiw.

[Arabian]

19 hours ago, El Presidente said:

One of our deck crew is CEO of a major international garbage collection corporation. 

They have as part of their fleet 2 electric garbage trucks. They have had to move them to locales that are flat. If there are hills and they are loaded they had a range of under 2 hours. 

Long way to go. 

one issue is how will they handle the excessive heat in certain countries. batteries don't do well under harsh environment. 

[helix]

Future of the EV is Hydrogen fuel cells.

[BrightonCorgi]

4 minutes ago, helix said:

Future of the EV is Hydrogen fuel cells.

Into a combustion engine.

[helix]

1 minute ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Into a combustion engine.

Hydrogen Fuel cell is a battery .

[SCgarman]

1 hour ago, Arabian said:

one issue is how will they handle the excessive heat in certain countries. batteries don't do well under harsh environment. 

Nor in a flood. They go up in flames. Besides this, they last on average 5 years. Then, on top of the 60K purchase price of the car, one needs to spend 20-30K for a new battery and labor to install it. The whole thing is "pie in the sky nonsense". No better for the Earth or those who inhabit it. This is all an "ideology", nothing more nothing less.

[jazzboypro]

6 hours ago, clint said:

The climate change narrative is just another in a long line of money laundering (and control through fear) schemes.    Until enough people wake up it's just going to be more of the same.   I'm against unnecessary pollution just like the next guy but making carbon the enemy is just ridiculous (and genius at the same time).

 

Not everyone agrees that evs are the way of the future.   I mean how "sustainable" is the mining of rare earth minerals used to build these batteries?  Are they an infinite resource?   What is that mining doing to the actual environment?   Are they mining with evs or diesel equipment?   Where do the used up batteries end up when they are exhausted?

These are good questions but keep in mind that battery technology is evolving fast and other battery types are in the works that don't rely on lithium. It may be wishful thinking but i think that before too long those batteries won't require as much rare earth materials. 

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/04/1066141/whats-next-for-batteries/?gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr82iBhCuARIsAO0EAZwh21DXzutsngW29TCUU6lkq0JUm3RK9DEfQPby8y7t5pTPkdxceQMaAv8kEALw_wcB

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, helix said:

Hydrogen Fuel cell is a battery .

 

[BlueRidgeFly]

I’m not sure how feasible it would be in big transport trucks, but I don’t understand why hybrid engines aren’t dominating discussion in the auto industry. Seems like the perfect transitional technology between today and an EV future.

We have a Toyota Prius as one of our vehicles. My wife pushed for it. I prefer my Tacoma 😀 but have to say, for a basic car, nothing to complain about. It’s our third one, actually. All have been touble-free. 50 mpg highway, 60 in the city. Going on 13 years old, 190,000 miles. Original battery. Our son still drives our previous one. The technology works.

[helix]

35 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

 

OMG ! Not an ICE running on hydrogen ! Nice motor though.  https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/mirai/overview   or https://www.ballard.com/fuel-cell-solutions/fuel-cell-power-products

[Frozen North]

How much CO2 is in the atmosphere? I can’t believe these idiots. Diesel has less pollutants than gasoline. Way to go Newsom.

[MrBirdman]

11 hours ago, clint said:

So you know what the "carbon imprint" of the recycling process is?

I know it isn’t zero but also that’s it’s far less than a gas car over its lifetime. Plus anything that’s recycled doesn’t have to be mined. 

3 hours ago, Frozen North said:

How much CO2 is in the atmosphere? I can’t believe these idiots. Diesel has less pollutants than gasoline. Way to go Newsom.

Not to beat a dead horse guys, but this move isn’t just about greenhouse gases. Its primary motivation is more likely air quality - 25% of PM2.5 and 20% CO from motor vehicles in the US comes from heavy diesel trucks. PM2.5 is the particular matter small enough to enter your bloodstream. It doesn’t just cause a little asthma or coughing. 

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Its primary motivation is more likely air quality - 25% of PM2.5 and 20% CO from motor vehicles in the US comes from heavy diesel trucks. PM2.5 is the particular matter small enough to enter your bloodstream. It doesn’t just cause a little asthma or coughing. 

This is probably true, although I've never seen the particulate issue decoupled from the climate argument. After all, CO2 is officially considered a pollutant by the EPA.

I will say that just perusing the literature on PM2.5 and other automobile-generating particulates it seems that there's a lack of solid foundation for the harm of low-level, short-term exposure of these particulates--the kind most of us receive. 

There seems to be a lot of research about worse health outcomes in areas with higher PM2.5 levels but I would think it would be extremely difficult to prove a causal link. High PM2.5 areas have a lot going on that could impact health. 

That's in addition to most of the best studies on the health effects of PM2.5 focusing on people with unusually high exposure like Chilean townspeople who are subjected to much higher levels than we ever would be due to burning wood inside their houses all day and night.

Most harmful substances are dose-dependent. Like cyanide in apples it's deadly but in small doses is harmless. No one's going to get cancer smoking one cigarette a week or get diabetes from one doughnut a week. 

So while I haven't (and probably won't) do a deep dive into all the research on the surface it looks like it may not be as cut and dried as it appears. Causal relationships are notoriously difficult to establish no matter the subject. But that's never stopped bureaucrats...

[treberty]

Electric, driverless trucks will be common a decade from now, IMO. 

EVs are evolving at light speed. 

Infrastructure to support the shift needs to be built though... solar/wind farms, super charging stations, etc.

Keep an eye on Norway in the coming years. They're really ahead.