Vendor Supply Chains & Inherent Risks

[El Presidente]

I woke up this morning to a host of PM's/E-mails in relation to a major online retailer who has now acknowledged that they have inadvertently sold some fake CORO and VI. Given that the vendor has made it public, they can be disclosed as Montefortuna. No doubt they will deal with the fallout in the best manner that they can. 

The sleuthing in relation to the "reveal" was done by Cigar-Salute on Reddit. Well done 

We have had members here comment over recent months how some vendors have plenty of Behike/ VI/Esplendidos/Lancero etc. In this environment that is a red flag as I can tell you that  those cigars simply don't exist in volume. 

In terms of supply dynamics. 

Most of the major online CC retailers purchase through multiple sources which can be a mix of  distributors, sub distributors, other independents, Cuba direct. 

The lack of premium CC stock in the world has seen distributors pull back supply to the core parts of their operations which in turn has led online retailers  to source further down/along the supply chain. It has been slim pickings for many. 

We source solely from PCC and Alex checks under black light every box of Cohiba that comes from PCC + matches serial numer sequencing etal.  Why? because it is good practice to have good practices and damn fine training. 

Should the day ever come that we are proven to have sold a fake box of cigars then I am passing you over to the CEO of PCC for the explanation.

There are professional operations flooding the markets with very good fakes. It has been going on for a number of years now. 

Invest in a black light, understand serial number sequencing, and have an understanding of your vendors supply chain. It is never a bad thing educating yourself a little. 

Packaging anomalies will always occur in product out of Cuba. Bands won't be embossed enough, typo's, packaging colour etal. That is QC.

What we are refering to in this thread is high level fraud on a grand scale. Be a little careful out there. 

 

 

 

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Oh boy...that's a serious problem for them. If you're not getting your product directly from distributors and you don't verify authenticity you shouldn't be in business, particularly post-cigarmageddon. All my experiences with this vendor are positive but this is the kind of thing can destroy an otherwise legitimate business. How foolish and totally preventable.

@Cigar Salute, excellent work. You're a pit bull when it comes to selling fakes. 

As an aside, I still do see plenty of vendors who source direct with Cohiba stock. That said, obviously it is impossible to tell how much of the market is fakes at the moment. I will say that it appears prices have stabilized in the last month. It doesn't appear supply is increasing yet, and obviously we aren't going to see the fruits of any increased production for at least several more months, probably at least Q1 23. 

[LizardGizmo]

I'm embarrassed to say that it was my box, Rob. The price was too-good-to-be-true at the time and stock was so and I pulled the trigger in hesitation. 

I got suspicious with the serial code vs. box date after seeing a FB post and sent it to @Cigar Salute a few weeks ago to investigate under a microscope. They were really pretty damn good looking fakes.

MF was in aggravated denial the entire time as this was slowly exposed, and refused to take responsibility - until Dan posted the findings on Reddit today. They wanted those affected (and who figured it out, which I'm assuming is a small percentage) to send boxes back on our own dime for assessment and possible refund.

Ugh...

We're going to have Dan on our pod soon to do a deep dive on these fakes, as his detailed investigation is the only reason they're now publicly admitting to selling fake boxes.

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, bambambam said:

I'm embarrassed to say that it was my box, Rob.

I am sorry you had to go through it! 

Glass half full.......you will get your money back and have added value to the global CC community at the same time.  

[LizardGizmo]

4 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I am sorry you had to go through it! 

Glass half full.......you will get your money back and have added value to the global CC community at the same time.  

Thanks...!
I'm no expert, but they certainly duped me on delivery. It was a TUA 20 box (which I knew when buying, and was a nice head start on age), sat in my Tupperware for months before I became aware of a potential issue. Bands looked great, cigars looked great - only under a microscope was it uncovered. The counterfeiters have gotten VERY good.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

22 minutes ago, bambambam said:

MF was in aggravated denial the entire time as this was slowly exposed, and refused to take responsibility

Very disappointed to hear this. Any vendor that doesn't source direct should take claims like these very seriously, particularly if they aren't willing to do their due diligence. For a vendor to receive claims of fakery and to dismiss them or go on offense is as irresponsible as it gets. Clearly they were wrong and if they disregarded specific indications pointed out to them they are not fit to sell cigars in today's climate. 

Notwithstanding any of that they should have offered a refund or exchange upon request without question if the box was intact...I'm assuming it was?

[LizardGizmo]

1 minute ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Very disappointed to hear this. Any vendor that doesn't source direct should take claims like these very seriously, particularly if they aren't willing to do their due diligence. For a vendor to receive claims of fakery and to dismiss them or go on offense is as irresponsible as it gets. Clearly they were wrong and if they disregarded specific indications pointed out to them they are not fit to sell cigars in today's climate. 

Notwithstanding any of that they should have offered a refund or exchange upon request without question if the box was intact...I'm assuming it was?

It was fully intact. My plan was to not touch it for another 3-4 years.

It took this unfortunate deep dive to happen for them to admit it today, months later. 

Had they emailed all affected buyers, offered evidence to look for on fake boxes, solicited any information from these customers they could and then offer immediate replacement or refund, things would be very different! They didn't even offer to cover shipping to return the box so they could inspect it. They wanted me/us to pay for shipping to then be possibly offered a refund.

They wouldn't even replace the box with a new authentic box, claiming the difference in price was too great. All red flags well before I sent the box to Dan.

[SCgarman]

The Chinese have yet to master a counterfeit Rolex. Definitely looks like Cohiba is much, much closer to passing for the real deal.

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, SCgarman said:

The Chinese have yet to master a counterfeit Rolex. Definitely looks like Cohiba is much, much closer to passing for the real deal.

Let’s face it, it’s basically just a piece of printed paper for authentication. The rest is dried, fermented leaves. In these times it holds like never before: You buy the seller!

[dominattorney]

I wonder how many other online vendors have done this, or will soon do it?

I had this thrown in my face by someone today just recently who was all like "see? Your online Cubans are all fakes"  more 2424 for me I guess. 

[yossie]

Just delete the vendor from my bookmark

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

I wonder how many other online vendors have done this, or will soon do it?

I had this thrown in my face by someone today just recently who was all like "see? Your online Cubans are all fakes"  more 2424 for me I guess. 

If you think it is only "online vendors" then you are set up for disappointment. Stores globally are trying to fill their shelves as best they can. 

H&F in the UK have done a great job in keeping stock on shelves. Everyone would like more but they have "enough"....just.   Others in Europe (take Spain) are not so lucky. 

I always recall a cigar shop owners response when I alluded to the fact that the Monte 2 boxes he had on the shelf looked "off".  Now I knew this person quite well so I was upfront.  I also knew that these fake boxes were being sourced via Singapore as I had seen them previously. 

Will never forget his response. "Rob, they are only fake if you know they are fake".  Unfortunately, this is a line of thinking that is out there. Some will use ignorance as a defence. 

Know your vendor. Know his supply lines. Ask the hard questions. 

 

 

[Chas.Alpha]

I'm only going to offer my little tale: I had built a relationship with an LCDH owner in Europe back in the early 2000's and was sourcing my CC's from him exclusively. 15 years later, I decided to try a "Duty free Swiss" online retailer for a 10'er of my beloved Lusi for $10 per stick as opposed to $18 from my friend at LCDH. Both arrived about the same time and I would say that the LCDH sticks just looked better. Laid them down for 6 months. I have a shopkeep friend in Tampa that I trust and created a challenge. My wife took some white out and marked the bands and the box of one set, not even known by me. My buddy Alex and I set down to try them both... The 1st one (white dot) looked and felt good, burned like a Lusi with the Partagas profile. We both agreed that they were legit. A half hour later, we lit the non dot Lusi. Good cigar. Something off, not Lusi profile like I know them. Didn't build like a Lusi. 

The great reveal: White dot was LCDH. There were also some anomalies with the "Swiss" box. We both agreed that they likely never saw the fort at El Morro.

A couple of years later, I signed on to FOH to find an answer to a question that was brought up on my 1st trip to Cuba. I cautiously placed a 10 count of M#2 in the cart but didn't place the order. The next night, I signed on to FOH at the right moment to see the 12 days of Christmas sampler 2019. I added it to the cart and tried to remove the M2's. Not being computer savvy, I finally gave up and placed the order for both. $350 was more than I wanted to spend on a vendor I didn't know or trust, but the Xmas sampler had an ARS 2019 Fundy that matched the box I got in Havana. 

When the Xmas/Monte order arrived, I opened the carefully boxed package. I actually gasped out loud, so much that my wife said " Aw, were they not what you expected?"

I still keep in touch with my friend at LCDH, but the selection is slim these days. I only use CigarCzar for my CC needs...

Moral of the story? TRUST YOUR VENDOR. If they aren't interested in getting to know their customers personally, I'm not interested in giving them my trust and my business.

[jakebarnes]

1 hour ago, bambambam said:

I'm embarrassed to say that it was my box, Rob. The price was too-good-to-be-true at the time and stock was so and I pulled the trigger in hesitation. 

I got suspicious with the serial code vs. box date after seeing a FB post and sent it to @Cigar Salute a few weeks ago to investigate under a microscope. They were really pretty damn good looking fakes.

MF was in aggravated denial the entire time as this was slowly exposed, and refused to take responsibility - until Dan posted the findings on Reddit today. They wanted those affected (and who figured it out, which I'm assuming is a small percentage) to send boxes back on our own dime for assessment and possible refund.

Ugh...

We're going to have Dan on our pod soon to do a deep dive on these fakes, as his detailed investigation is the only reason they're now publicly admitting to selling fake boxes.

Appreciate your service. You're not the only one--I also have a questionable box from a different source. One that had given me very real, very tasty Cohibas before. This market is different and many are doing ANYTHING to stay afloat.

Again, appreciate everything your done for us here in giving us the good stuff, @El Presidente

[MossybackR]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

because it is good practice to have good practices

Words to live by.

[Chucko8]

There are plenty of sharks out there in the waters at present. Be wary

[Rhinoww]

Well we have said for some time that the new prices were gonna leave a mark. Looks like having a new to me UV flashlight will be interesting to have going forward. I can’t say I’m buying anything Cohiba anymore but I will be checking my existing stock when my new flashlight arrives. Another side of the learning curve I was hoping to avoid. 

[LordAnubis]

I once ordered from MF. I ordered 2 boxes of 10 QdO50s probably 3 years ago. A huge box arrived by express courier. When they handed to me it felt very very light. As if it was empty. Inside was  atleast 2m of bubble wrap one single punch punch cigar. All the way from wherever they ship to australia. One cigar. After a heap of bitching they eventually sent the 2 boxes I ordered. But it sure wasn’t easy. 

[Edicion]

Frankly, I'm not surprised. This has been a high profile vendor on social media, sponsoring "ambassadors" who are well known Instagram 'Cigar aficionados' with huge followings , promoting their products, when there's really no need to market CC since shortage of supply should have guaranteed sales anyway. 

They had very limited stock for a long time (even before the cigarmaggedon - great word btw @NSXCIGAR), and then moved into NCs to have anything to sell, and suddenly Regionals, LEs, Aged stuff, premiums popped up at decent prices... while regular production was out?! Nah... I think there's a chance many will scrutinize whatever they bought from them before and this story might not end here.

[dominattorney]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

If you think it is only "online vendors" then you are set up for disappointment. Stores globally are trying to fill their shelves as best they can. 

H&F in the UK have done a great job in keeping stock on shelves. Everyone would like more but they have "enough"....just.   Others in Europe (take Spain) are not so lucky. 

I always recall a cigar shop owners response when I alluded to the fact that the Monte 2 boxes he had on the shelf looked "off".  Now I knew this person quite well so I was upfront.  I also knew that these fake boxes were being sourced via Singapore as I had seen them previously. 

Will never forget his response. "Rob, they are only fake if you know they are fake".  Unfortunately, this is a line of thinking that is out there. Some will use ignorance as a defence. 

Know your vendor. Know his supply lines. Ask the hard questions. 

 

 

I'm a trial lawyer, Rob. I'm always set up for dissappintment. I don't delude myself into thinking it's only online vendors, I just only buy online is all. You know. Oppressive government and whatnot. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

Here's the monster thread for those that are curious:

It's certainly been keeping myself and the other mods on our toes today.

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Rhinoww said:

Looks like having a new to me UV flashlight will be interesting to have going forward

I would expect the counterfeiters to learn from this one. Remember, these counterfeiters are selling to vendors. 

This may be the beginning of the end of vendors not affiliated with their region's distributor or HSA as a Habanos Point or Specialist. 

 

4 hours ago, Edicion said:

cigarmaggedon - great word btw @NSXCIGAR),

Got it from @El Presidente the other day. All credit to him.

The more I think about how this unfolded it makes it harder for me to just pass this off as simple negligence. I doubt we'll ever have evidence of actual malice or intent to defraud on the part of the vendor but an important question to ask is, what would it look like if they were aware of this the whole time? How would they act? Ignore at first, deny deny deny, go on offense, create friction, discourage returns, not proactively contact other customers who bought these to notify them and offer replacements, acknowledge it only when there is no way out...

Needless to say, I would never use a vendor who (allegedly) behaved as this one did during this whole affair. They have lost my business. 

[DaBoot]

If the ship is already sinking…. No way they didn’t know the stock wasn’t legit,.

I even think going forward you will see legit boxes and bands from stripped Trinidad and cohiba, LE, RE. with all high  factory quality counterfeit. Price points are too high not too.

[Cigar Salute]

Thanks to Rob & everyone for the support and kind words!  I just wanna point out that Greg AKA "GregSpringer1" here on FOH deserves the credit for discovering these cigars were now being sold at Montefortuna.  It's sad that these bogus cigars were found at a popular vendor.  After seeing how many different places these things have been popping up at since I became aware of them early this year, nothing surprises me anymore unfortunately.  Hopefully this incident encourages other merchants & customers to be more vigilant in their buying practices!  

[NSXCIGAR]

48 minutes ago, DaBoot said:

If the ship is already sinking…. No way they didn’t know the stock wasn’t legit,.

I think it is possible they didn't know but their behavior after the concerns arose has me wondering, and if I'm wondering whether someone has engaged in nefarious activity the Rubicon has already been crossed. 

CCs will very shortly be faked perfectly. Like I said, I'm not sure any vendor unaffiliated with a distributor or HSA will survive. Buying from trusted vendors that source directly is going to be the only way to prevent this.