Cohiba Novedosos In the wild....

[PigFish]

… maybe the cigars are on par with the box!!! This is Cuban and the bar ain’t all that high!

This add some credibility to my belief that the folks who pay too much for cigars don’t do it for the smoking experience but for other reasons. No wonder Tabacuba gets away with selling so much crap. Their main customer today is a Koolaid drinker with little to no taste!

[BrightonCorgi]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Provenance and reputation are everything these days. I would rely on that more than any so-called security feature. Untill a NFT or RFID solution is developed (trial run on the Siglo de Oro) that's all there is. 

We've seen fakes being sold at LCDH's.  How much more reputation is required?

[ATGroom]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Untill a NFT or RFID solution is developed (trial run on the Siglo de Oro) that's all there is. 

Possible that I just haven't fully understood the RFID thing yet, but as I understand it it's just basically a unique code in a chip embedded in the box that can be validated against the HSA database.

Ie, exactly the same as the current warranty serials, albeit possibly with a less guessable number. Doesn't seem like it will be a significant hurdle for fakers to figure out how to embed their own chips and copy the numbers from a genuine box.

If they get a chain of custody tracking thing going that would be a step in the right direction. Although even that would not be anywhere near as bulletproof or cheap to implement as the bottom of the box picture I have outlined elsewhere.

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

Possible that I just haven't fully understood the RFID thing yet, but as I understand it it's just basically a unique code in a chip embedded in the box that can be validated against the HSA database.

I think that’s basically correct - where the value would lie for me is using it to create a chain of custody record. I would be interested to hear more about your picture proposal.

No solution will be permanently foolproof though. With the huge opportunity for profit now, fakers can afford to invest in more sophisticated production. If Habanos wanted to convincingly combat counterfeits they’d need to do what currency printers do - add security features that are expensive to reproduce, continue updating/layering them on top of each other periodically, and produce them in secure facilities (e.g. nowhere in China). 

Needless to say, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[BrightonCorgi]

Habanos could limit the vendors that can sell Cohiba to 20 worldwide.  The packaging could clearly state who the valid vendors are. 

If you buy it from someone else; good luck to you.

[Bijan]

3 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Possible that I just haven't fully understood the RFID thing yet, but as I understand it it's just basically a unique code in a chip embedded in the box that can be validated against the HSA database.

Depending on the RFID tech it can be like the chip in a credit card, where it's not a number but a handshake (involving a secret number/key in the chip that can't be extracted) which can't be copied.

That plus a website that allows tracking the last legitimate owner, possibly using NFTs, should allow one to trace the chain of custody for any box.

Of course we're still at only OK'ing the boxes. And given enough money, and enough links in that chain, it won't eliminate fakes.

What would eliminate fakes would be such a chip in each cigar which would get destroyed/disabled when you cut it or smoke it.

 

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

where the value would lie for me is using it to create a chain of custody record.

They could do that with the existing serial #s though. No legit serial # has been replicated yet, each box should have its own unique #. But HSA cant even maintain that function on their website and multiple years under new ownership haven't done anything to solve that problem. They don't even seem to be interested in solving the problem. 

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

add security features that are expensive to reproduce, continue updating/layering them on top of each other periodically, and produce them in secure facilities (e.g. nowhere in China).

So you want the same cigars to be even more egregiously expensive than they already are? The "high end" boxes and packaging already cost FAR more than the cigars they contain, like several orders of magnitude. It seems like everyone has completely lost sight of what matters here, the cigars. I have no interest in paying $1,000 or $5,000 dollars for $200 worth of cigars because they come in a cool box with a chip and gold leaf. None of that has worked so far, in fact, the problem has only gotten worse as this stupid crap has become more and more common. 

19 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Of course we're still at only OK'ing the boxes. And given enough money, and enough links in that chain, it won't eliminate fakes.

What would eliminate fakes would be such a chip in each cigar which would get destroyed/disabled when you cut it or smoke it.

Padron has had individual serial #s on some of their higher end releases for close to 20 years now. I don't think fake Padron's have ever been nearly as prevalent as fake Cubans, but my point is, you don't need an RFID chip to track individual cigars. 

[Bijan]

12 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

They could do that with the existing serial #s though. No legit serial # has been replicated yet

I think some of the fake boxes have all identically valid but duplicate serial numbers.

One quick negative test for fakes is to look at multiple boxes on the shelf/in the store and see if the serials are identical.

 

12 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Padron has had individual serial #s on some of their higher end releases for close to 20 years now. I don't think fake Padron's have ever been nearly as prevalent as fake Cubans, but my point is, you don't need an RFID chip to track individual cigars. 

You can copy serial numbers. I get that you're saying fakers are not doing so yet. But they could, and for Cuban boxes they are, albeit using a single serial number for a whole run of fakes.

My point is that using a chip that has a key that can't be copied is the only way you can trust the system entirely.

 

12 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

So you want the same cigars to be even more egregiously expensive than they already are? The "high end" boxes and packaging already cost FAR more than the cigars they contain, like several orders of magnitude. It seems like everyone has completely lost sight of what matters here, the cigars. I have no interest in paying $1,000 or $5,000 dollars for $200 worth of cigars because they come in a cool box with a chip and gold leaf. None of that has worked so far, in fact, the problem has only gotten worse as this stupid crap has become more and more common. 

100% agree. But that's because Habanos doesn't have an interest in completely preventing fakes. They have an interest in retailers and consumers in the know being able to ID fakes, so that cigars aren't entirely worthless on the secondary market.

But they benefit from casual consumers being wary of fakes and wanting to buy new Habanos production over existing cigars that are still floating around.

Again a proper solution is a chip that can be scanned by any smartphone to validate the cigar. The chip can't be duplicated and it self destructs when taken out of the cigar or when the cigar is cut. With proper design it would cost less than $1 per cigar, which is not much on most CCs and especially Cohibas and Reservas, etc.

[Corylax18]

12 hours ago, Bijan said:

You can copy serial numbers. I get that you're saying fakers are not doing so yet. But they could, and for Cuban boxes they are, albeit using a single serial number for a whole run of fakes.

My point is that using a chip that has a key that can't be copied is the only way you can trust the system entirely.

Of course you can, as you said, its been one of the easiest way to identify Cuban fakes for a while now. A whole stack of ultra high end boxes with the same number is a dead giveaway. 

What I was saying was that if HSA's website reliably worked to track box Serial numbers, it could easily be upgraded to do the same with cigar Serial #s. It should be as simple as the box serial # - 1 through 15 or 20, 25. Whatever the quantity. You don't need an RFID chip to do that. 

I've only ever purchased a handful of the serialized Padron's, but I believe they have some method of verification that you can access. 

 

12 hours ago, Bijan said:

Again a proper solution is a chip that can be scanned by any smartphone to validate the cigar. The chip can't be duplicated and it self destructs when taken out of the cigar or when the cigar is cut. With proper design it would cost less than $1 per cigar, which is not much on most CCs and especially Cohibas and Reservas, etc.

HSA/Tabacuba cant even get the basic process of rolling and packaging cigars right. I have less than Zero confidence they could execute a cigar by cigar chipping process successfully.

Theoretically, it wouldn't be much different that chipping a pet. Those chips are the size of a grain of rice. The hard part(impossible part for tabacuba) would be the front end data entry and uploading of this information in a usable form to a location that it could be accessed by all. I've only ever seen one computer in a cigar factory and it looked like it was from the Mid- late 90s. That was at El Laguito. Tabacuba would have to invest a tremendous amount of time and money to streamline much more basic processes at their factories before they could even think about adding RFID technology. They still track things using pencil and paper, huge amounts of cigars sneak at the back door and the profit from those operations gets distributed all the way up the ladder. The people who would be responsible for making these changes have no interest in doing so, it would be against their best interest to do so. 

[Bijan]

8 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

The people who would be responsible for making these changes have no interest in doing so, it would be against their best interest to do so. 

This is the main reason it won't happen. Where there's no will, there's no way 😂

They could use identical chips for all the cigars and just tap each cigar against a smartphone (does not need to be a recent nor a fancy one) to program them as they go into the box and the software could be provided by the Chinese or the Dutch or whoever provides them the fancy labels now.

Edit: if all the cigars in the same box can be marked identically it could even be done after the box is closed at the warehouse before/after freezing.

[JohnnyO]

The ones that I had were waaaay darker than the ones in the pic. John

[MrBirdman]

4 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

So you want the same cigars to be even more egregiously expensive than they already are

I didn’t say I wanted it - just that it would be the only way I can imagine to stay ahead of counterfeiters without a complex chain of custody system (that wouldn’t benefit grey market purchasers anyway because sellers typically don’t want the distributor to be traceable). Obviously I don’t think any of this is at all likely to happen, I think I made that clear. 

The only change I can see with any chance of being possible is moving to higher end boxes for most Cohiba and producing all of their high end boxes in house. Yes, I know they probably can’t even manage this, but it’s more realistic than laser engraving or the like. As I hinted at in my initial post, those Majestuosos boxes were so spot on I suspected they came from the actual manufacturer, and now with @ATGroom confirming a Chinese origin I’d bet that’s exactly what happened.

No security feature will matter if forgers have direct access to the source of their manufacture.

[Bijan]

2 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

No security feature will matter if forgers have direct access to the source of their manufacture.

Cryptographic ones would. They wouldn't just need the same kind of device, they would need the device plus the exact same key. So it would only be possible as an inside job.

[NSXCIGAR]

21 minutes ago, MrFolgers said:

Donkey shows?

You have to go down the street for those. Or so I hear...

Although I hear there's some freaky stuff that goes down in Germany also. 

[Fuzz]

People, let's not make any potential defamatory remarks.

[MrBirdman]

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

Cryptographic ones would. They wouldn't just need the same kind of device, they would need the device plus the exact same key. So it would only be possible as an inside job.

I was referring to physical-only features, and if a cryptographic key can be printed somewhere once it can be printed twice - one out the front door the other out the back. That’s probably how the Majestuosos boxes were procured. 

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

I was referring to physical-only features, and if a cryptographic key can be printed somewhere once it can be printed twice - one out the front door the other out the back. That’s probably how the Majestuosos boxes were procured. 

This would be a physical token (like the grain of rice sized pet trackers/tags @Corylax18 mentioned).

They could only be printed by someone on the inside. And couldn't be copied after the fact independently (as could boxes, serials, bands, etc.).

If you're talking about cooperation from the inside (Habanos or factory workers in charge of the tokens), then yeah, there's no way to prevent fakes no matter what the technology.)

[benfica_77]

A couple photos of boxes on sale in Europe...will confirm location 

[Arabian]

A disaster this one is.. (label RG 55-60 on a 50 RG cigar) this is the worst fake I've ever seen so far.

[Namisgr11]

17 hours ago, benfica_77 said:

A couple photos of boxes on sale in Europe...will confirm location

Serial numbers are too blurry for me to attempt to verify.

[benfica_77]

8 hours ago, Namisgr11 said:

Serial numbers are too blurry for me to attempt to verify.

Sadly don't have any better resolution photos and was unable to confirm location of those boxes annoyingly....

[BarryVT]

Cigarshop Litin in Ireland is on board lol

[Low]

1 hour ago, BarryVT said:

Cigarshop Litin in Ireland is on board lol

All the more reason to only order from FOH 

[NSXCIGAR]

17 hours ago, Namisgr11 said:

Serial numbers are too blurry for me to attempt to verify.

I'm not one to rely on serials but if we see different serials that come back as Novedosos we at least know there's boxes in circulation. 

[ATGroom]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:32 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not one to rely on serials but if we see different serials that come back as Novedosos we at least know there's boxes in circulation. 

The fake boxes pictured in this thread had ENE 21 stamps and 0000507 serials that came back valid for Novedosos.