Jorge Padron talks about dark and oily wrappers.

[PuroDan]

I got this article from a post @Fosgate posted in another thread today and found it interesting...

 

The Truth About Oily Cigars

If you've ever wondered why some cigars look so shiny, the following will enlighten you.

In a recent email, the writer noted that while attending a herf at a local cigar store, one of the store's employees told him that 'many cigar makers use mineral oil to make the maduro wrapper dark and black, and whenever you see a really dark maduro wrapper, it's because they rub it with mineral oil.' Claiming he had never heard of this, he asked if it was true.

Although it's rumoured that some factories use ethylene glycol to make their cigars look oily, to get to the bottom of it we went to one the best sources, Jorge Padrón of Padrón Cigars.

"There are some manufacturers that use some sort of oil to give their cigars the "oily sheen" on the wrapper," said Jorge. "I am not sure what type of oil it is or how it is applied. Needless to say that Padron Cigars would never even consider doing something like this. Much has been talked about oily wrappers and how consumers should look upon this as a positive attribute of a cigar. At Padron we look at oily wrappers as wrappers that have not been fermented completely."

Humberto Gonzalez, a former sales rep for Jesus Fuego Cigars said, "I learned quite a bit about tobacco processing in my travels with Jesus Fuego, and Jesus concurs with Jorge. Shiny wrappers are attractive to the American eye because we, as Americans, love big shiny things. When I did cigar events, I made a point of schooling people into escaping that mindset and used Padron as the example. There is no such thing as a shiny, oily, Padron cigar; yet, they are at the top of their game."

Additionally, as Jorge points out above, during the fermentation process, the trick is to remove as much oil from the wrapper leaf as possible without enitrely drying it out.

Your thoughts?

~ Gary Korb

[El Presidente]

I don't think I have ever seen an oily Padron.

It may be a Nic thing. The philosophy is certainly different among most cuban growers.

Hamlet astounded me by how many NC are treated be it paint or bethumed.

[benfica_77]

17 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I don't think I have ever seen an oily Padron.

It may be a Nic thing. The philosophy is certainly different among most cuban growers.

Hamlet astounded me by how many NC are treated be it paint or bethumed.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall during your convos with Hamlet....seems like a very colourful and interesting dude 

[NSXCIGAR]

Sounds like an excuse for not being able to produce attractive wrappers in Nicaragua...

Yes, I'm sure there's some truth to it in terms of overly-oily wrappers could be problematic or indicative of improper fermentation. But the most desirable, top-tier wrappers have always had a nice sheen to them. I also don't doubt some producers do use tricks to make wrappers shinier. Hell, some wrappers are still dyed. 

 

[PuroDan]

  A lot of NC's use raisin juice, oils and anything else they can to doctor it up. Then they call it "cubanesque 🤣". Have you ever seen the amount of smoke coming off a liga privada cigar? Something isnt right. And the room note of an NC is disgusting because of all the chemicals dyes ect.  As far as i know Cuban tobacco is dang near organic or fully organic? Help me out here @NSXCIGAR i know you know this

 

12 hours ago, El Presidente said:

It may be a Nic thing

Its a trash thing. The quality of the tobacco is poor thats why NC companies do they do what they do. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig

[Fosgate]

There are some NC's I've smoked that I swear have such an oil can taste, burn, odor that when I think about it it's like this one scene from the movie always when the cigar is drenched in oil. Macanudo Vinatage 1997's are like that to me. 

 

[PuroDan]

1 hour ago, Fosgate said:

There are some NC's I've smoked that I swear have such an oil can taste, burn, odor that when I think about it it's like this one scene from the movie always when the cigar is drenched in oil. Macanudo Vinatage 1997's are like that to me.

LOL

[SCgarman]

4 hours ago, PuroDan said:

 NC's use raisin juice, oils and anything else they can to doctor it up. Then they call it "cubanesque 🤣". Have you ever seen the amount of smoke coming off a liga privada cigar? Something isnt right. And the room note of an NC is disgusting because of all the chemicals dyes ect.  As far as i know Cuban tobacco is dang near organic or fully organic? Help me out here @NSXCIGAR i know you know this

 

Its a trash thing. The quality of the tobacco is poor thats why NC companies do they do what they do. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig

If you are insinuating that Padron cigars are trash, that would be a very inaccurate statement. Padron has earned top honors as among the world's best cigars, there is no disputing this fact. Whether you like the cigars, well that is subjective like anything else in life.

[Ciscojohansson]

5 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I don't think I have ever seen an oily Padron.

It may be a Nic thing. The philosophy is certainly different among most cuban growers.

Hamlet astounded me by how many NC are treated be it paint or bethumed.

Sorry, but for us non english speakers. What is bethumed?

[Bijan]

10 minutes ago, Ciscojohansson said:

Sorry, but for us non english speakers. What is bethumed?

I believe this is what is being referred to:

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/glossary/bethune

"

Bethune

A mixture of herbs, wine, rum or a combination of such materials used to treat certain types of tobacco. It’s a process some cigarmakers do, but few discuss. Royal Jamaica was famous for using a bethune on its tobacco."

[Ciscojohansson]

Thanks!

[Chas.Alpha]

Maybe this helps: What they look like to others

 

What they look like to us...

 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, PuroDan said:

As far as i know Cuban tobacco is dang near organic or fully organic? Help me out here @NSXCIGAR i know you know this

Cuba uses 100% organic fertilizer for tobacco. Fish guts, beans, manure. Chemical fertilizers are used extensively in the NC world although I do not know who does and doesn't.

As far as the aroma of NC tobacco, I have noticed it is quite distinct from CC tobacco, however I had always put this down to the terroir. I cannot offer any opinion on whether it is a result of differences in production techniques. 

[Fuzz]

If after a smoking session, you're hands look like this:

Maybe your cigars have been treated with something.

[Deeg]

4 hours ago, NYgarman said:

If you are insinuating that Padron cigars are trash, that would be a very inaccurate statement. Padron has earned top honors as among the world's best cigars, there is no disputing this fact. Whether you like the cigars, well that is subjective like anything else in life.

Indeed, there is a tendency to lump all NC manufacturers in together when it fact, some of them are exemplary when it comes to this sort of thing (like Padron).  Taste is subjective, but not all NC cigars are heavily treated tent-pegs.

I see a tendency between Cuban and NC cigar aficionados that sometimes reminds me of the way most serious Scotch whisky drinkers talk about bourbon and rye (i.e. dismissive and condescending).  This place is largely free of it, thank goodness, but it annoys me when it see it either with cigars or whisk(e)y.  I smoke mostly Cubans but there are some wonderful NCs out there, and there's no need to put down one to build up the other.

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Deeg said:

Indeed, there is a tendency to lump all NC manufacturers in together when it fact, some of them are exemplary when it comes to this sort of thing (like Padron).  Taste is subjective, but not all NC cigars are heavily treated tent-pegs.

I see a tendency between Cuban and NC cigar aficionados that sometimes reminds me of the way most serious Scotch whisky drinkers talk about bourbon and rye (i.e. dismissive and condescending).  This place is largely free of it, thank goodness, but it annoys me when it see it either with cigars or whisk(e)y.  I smoke mostly Cubans but there are some wonderful NCs out there, and there's no need to put down one to build up the other.

Agreed - I have a 100% Cuban collection and smoke 100% Cuban but I would never refuse to smoke a Tatuaje, My Father, La Ley, Padron, Nicarao or a few others.

BTW : Nice to know what Bethune is - Betun in Spanish is shoe cream ...

[PuroDan]

8 hours ago, Deeg said:

Indeed, there is a tendency to lump all NC manufacturers in together when it fact, some of them are exemplary when it comes to this sort of thing (like Padron).  Taste is subjective, but not all NC cigars are heavily treated tent-pegs.

I see a tendency between Cuban and NC cigar aficionados that sometimes reminds me of the way most serious Scotch whisky drinkers talk about bourbon and rye (i.e. dismissive and condescending).  This place is largely free of it, thank goodness, but it annoys me when it see it either with cigars or whisk(e)y.  I smoke mostly Cubans but there are some wonderful NCs out there, and there's no need to put down one to build up the other.

 I am very sorry if i hurt your feelings with my opinion as my wording may have been a bit temerarious  . This is my opinion on a certain types of cigars that are (inanimate). I would totally understand if i put down a group of people, political party, you ect. Life is too short to let little things like this bother you (just my opinion) Remember... I am just a guy on the internet with an opinion. 

13 hours ago, NYgarman said:

If you are insinuating that Padron cigars are trash, that would be a very inaccurate statement. Padron has earned top honors as among the world's best cigars, there is no disputing this fact. Whether you like the cigars, well that is subjective like anything else in life.

No. Padrons are not trash. I just edited my post from all to a lot.

 

7 hours ago, nino said:

Agreed - I have a 100% Cuban collection and smoke 100% Cuban but I would never refuse to smoke a Tatuaje, My Father, La Ley, Padron, Nicarao or a few others.

BTW : Nice to know what Bethune is - Betun in Spanish is shoe cream ...

If somebody handed me a Padron to smoke, i would smoke it. But i would be thinking of a Party 898 every time i took a hit

11 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Cuba uses 100% organic fertilizer for tobacco. Fish guts, beans, manure. Chemical fertilizers are used extensively in the NC world although I do not know who does and doesn't.

As far as the aroma of NC tobacco, I have noticed it is quite distinct from CC tobacco, however I had always put this down to the terroir. I cannot offer any opinion on whether it is a result of differences in production techniques. 

I even heard that the Cubans use certain bugs to combat the bugs that eat through the leaves instead of spraying with pesticides.

[nKostyan]

  Have you ever seen the amount of smoke coming off a liga privada cigar?

Liga Privada uses chemicals. I found out by accident when I left a Serie Unico cigar butt in the ashtray at night. Next day I smelled it and it was perfume, the smell of toilet soap.

[Squarehead]

5 hours ago, Fuzz said:

If after a smoking session, you're hands look like this:

Maybe your cigars have been treated with something.

Now that would be very extreme 

[PuroDan]

4 hours ago, nKostyan said:

Liga Privada uses chemicals. I found out by accident when I left a Serie Unico cigar butt in the ashtray at night. Next day I smelled it and it was perfume, the smell of toilet soap.

Lol. When you dont have quality tobacco to start with, you have to add chemicals, perfumes, and anything else that will improve the taste of trash. There is a good reason NC companies make "boutique cigars". On the contrary there is good reason why Cuba can grow high quality  wrapper, binder, and filler. Simple answer. Soil,climate, fermentation ect.

12 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

Maybe this helps: What they look like to others

 

What they look like to us...

 

Great layout Chaz. Beautiful array of non chemically enhanced Puros

[Cigar Surgeon]

Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread without ever having stepped inside a factory in Nicaragua. Grab a cigar, a coffee, and get comfortable.

1 hour ago, PuroDan said:

Lol. When you dont have quality tobacco to start with, you have to add chemicals, perfumes, and anything else that will improve the taste of trash. There is a good reason NC companies make "boutique cigars". On the contrary there is good reason why Cuba can grow high quality  wrapper, binder, and filler. Simple answer. Soil,climate, fermentation ect.

You're pretty misinformed. Drew Estate tends to have the best grade of wrapper tobacco. As a result of their company size, they can purchase entire crops and then categorize the tobacco to fit their blends and sell the rest. 

Additionally at any given time they have 3 - 4 years worth of tobacco in order to account for any variations in filler or wrapper tobacco quality year over year. They learned this lesson the hard way back in 2009/2010.

3 hours ago, nKostyan said:

 

Liga Privada uses chemicals. I found out by accident when I left a Serie Unico cigar butt in the ashtray at night. Next day I smelled it and it was perfume, the smell of toilet soap.

 

No, they don't (more on this below). I've been over every inch of their factory more times than I've been through the Nacional.

 

So, here we have another one of these threads where people claim a number of things without any evidence or experience to back it up. I normally keep my mouth shut, but this one is so far disconnected from reality that I need to set the record straight. I realize this is a Cuban cigar forum, but if you're going to have a conversation about non-Cuban processes you should at least be informed.

While it's possible that some brands treat their wrappers with mineral oil, I have never witnessed it through all the times I've been in Nicaragua and all the factory floors I've walked. I sincerely doubt it, as adding mineral oil would cause the wrapper not to burn and it would be quite obvious. When people say 'mineral oil' what they're most likely referring to is stem dying which I get into below. 

Here are the major processes in maduro wrappers in non-Cuban processes:

Fermenting Tobacco (natural)

The most traditional way to get a dark wrapper is simply to ferment the wrapper tobacco for long periods of time, upwards of a year or more. Drew Estate, as an example, ferments their Broadleaf for 2 - 3-1/2 years. Some types of tobacco, Habano for example, won't stand up to long periods of fermentation as the wrapper leaf is too thin and it would just become mush over time.

This involves wetting the tobacco, stacking it in giant pilons weighing hundreds of pounds, and letting the pressure and water create heat in the center of the pilon. if the heat gets too high, the pilon is broken down and rebuilt. This process is quite labour intensive, and also has a risk to it because if the temperature gets too high you can actually ignite the tobacco, or destroy the tobacco in the case of thinner wrapper.

The challenge with fermenting tobacco for this long is you have sunk costs in the tobacco and it's taking you years to realize that return. Smaller boutiques are going to be in the position where they either have to purchase already fermented tobacco from larger manufacturers, or purchase tobacco that's partially fermented and finish the process themselves because they like to see it done in a specific way. I've observed more manufacturers doing the latter than the former because every manufacturer believes that their way is the best way.

While the exterior of the wrapper will be more oily, the color on the outside and the inside will be fairly uniform.

Bale Aging (natural)

The wrapper tobacco isn't fermented quite as far as above, instead it's put into a bale and left to ferment slowly. The wrapper will darken over a long period (6 months or more), but it will not be evenly dark and you will likely see some mottling in areas on the tobacco.

Wrapper cooking

This is one of the more common processes used throughout the non-Cuban industry. Many times this is a shortcut for smaller manufacturers who either can't afford to purchase well fermented tobacco, or are simply trying to rush the process through in order to get a product to the market. 

Wrapper cooking or wrapper steeping can be done in a few different ways, but the most common is steaming of the leaves. You lay the leaves on a roller device and hot steam is shot up to essentially cook the wrapper and darken it to the shade you want.

Leaves that have been cooked in this way can be identified by the telltale sign of the wrapper tobacco itself lacking the complex flavors typically associated with properly fermentation. Additionally wrappers that have been cooked tend to be unusually dark (like jet black) with no color differentiation between the wrapper and any veins. Because the wrapper is cooked, it will be jet black on both sides.

Wrapper painting

Wrapper painting or dying is also a common technique, but it's not necessarily as insidious as it's meant to be. While wrapper painting could be used on underfermented tobacco, it's not that common as the entire purpose of either cooking the wrapper, or properly fermenting the wrapper is to get the texture, taste, and color to the point you're trying to achieve. Painting the wrapper would only get you one of the three.

Painting is most commonly used to try and hide visible flaws in the wrapper, or to make the wrapper more uniform in appearance (more on this below). There are many different ways this can be achieved, from taking the water byproduct from a wrapper cooking / steaming process, to squeezing stems or failed wrapper tobacco and then using a sponge to wipe that residue onto the wrapper. This way if you have imperfections, water spots, or a wide variance in the wrapper shade you can make it quite uniform.

This is more difficult to identify as usually the entire wrapper won't have been painted only smaller sections. You can sometimes peel off a section of wrapper and look at the underside. If it was painted it will be dark on one side and brown on the other.

"Maduro-Matic" (painting industrialized)

Similar to the above technique but on a large scale where the wrapper is passed through a roller and a, artificial or natural dye (achieved by squeezing the stems and using the oil from the stems) is applied as the wrapper passes through.

As the dye is applied across the entire wrapper, there will be an unnatural darkness to the wrapper, similar to if it was cooked. Typically with the maduro-matic process the wrapper isn't taken to the extreme darkness you see with a cooking process.

As above if you look at the back of the wrapper it will be significantly lighter than the outside.

Petune (natural)

This is another common technique and manufacturers believe this is a natural, traditional technique that originated in Cuba. 

A petune is where you take all the stems that have been removed from the wrapper, soak them in a barrel of distilled water, and then immerse the wrapper tobacco for a short period in the water. The petune tends to absorb into the entire leaf and serves to even out the color across the wrapper. The purpose is not to darken the wrapper, but to remove mottling or other imperfections. 

Common things that are passed around that are nonsense

"I was in a factory and I saw them taking a sponge to the tobacco, they're obviously adulterating it."

Sponges are used for a wide variety of reasons, including wiping foreign material such as dust off the wrapper, or even adding some moisture as the wrapper dries out. Sometimes filtered water will be sprayed on from a spray bottle or hose if the factory is large enough.

"I have black residue on my fingers and lips, they clearly died the wrapper."
Again, while this can sometimes occur with adulterated wrappers, it also happens with thick, dark, oily Broadleaf. 

If you've ever visited a factory, take a look at the hands of the workers that are sorting wrapper, or removing stems. If they aren't wearing gloves, their hands will be dark as if they've been working in a garden all day. This is the oil from the tobacco transferring to their hands.

If you go to a rolling station where they're rolling Maduro cigars, many rollers will use gloves because otherwise their hands will be black by the end of a shift. 

"Drew Estate paints, perfumes, or dyes their wrappers."

No, they absolutely do not. They do use long fermentation on tobacco, bale aging, and occasionally the petune process for some types of wrapper leaves that are more prone to significant mottling. 

How can I tell?

If you truly want to know if the wrapper was unnaturally adulterated, take a look at the wrapper. Does it look too perfect? Can you find water spots, mottling, or significant color variations between the veins and the wrapper? Then the wrapper was finished with a natural process.

You can clip off a half inch from the foot, and peel off the wrapper. Take a look at the bottom of the wrapper and compare it to the outside. You'll be able to tell right away if the wrapper was cooked/steamed or dyed in a maduro-matic type process.

[nKostyan]

12 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

No, they don't (more on this below). I've been over every inch of their factory more times than I've been through the Nacional.

I will not argue because each of us can repeat this test at home. In addition, a number of cigar smokers with a keen sense of smell feel when smoking that tobacco is sauced.

[Cigar Surgeon]

3 minutes ago, nKostyan said:

I will not argue because each of us can repeat this test at home. In addition, a number of cigar smokers with a keen sense of smell feel when smoking that tobacco is sauced.

I am not disputing that you or others feel they are subjectively getting aromas or flavors of chemicals or perfume. I am however 100% disputing that Drew Estate adds chemicals or perfumes to their tobaccos to adulterate them in any way (with the exception of the ACID line, but that's an entirely separate conversation).

Your subjective experience is not objective evidence. 

 

[Squarehead]

Bring me one industry where no cheating is going on

[Jimmy_jack]

This is what they do with those garbage Liga Private. There’s video of them wrapping cigars with soaking wet wrapper leaf and black hands.