Plain Packaging in Canada Update - Also, delisted cigars

[torsion]

@mrretrohale

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[havanaclub]

Makes me puke


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[Head83]

So with essentially an entire market now being removed, does that mean we will see more availability around the world?  I see a lot more online orders coming out of Canada in the future as well. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, La_Tigre said:

Seems odd to not keep cardboard 5-packs. I would think shifting most sales to cardboard 3 or 5 packs would increase sales by making the purchase price accessible to more consumers.

But they have to repackage everything. That's why they're out. They don't have the manpower to repackage in volume or to open every tube and every petaca. 

3 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

One has to question whether this will have any positive effect beyond appeasing public health advocates.

You're dealing with interests that want to eliminate all tobacco products from the face of the earth. It's beyond reasoning with them. 

A country that allows this kind of economic control isn't a free country at all. Anything could be next. These kinds of people want to ban cow farts also. 

[MrBirdman]

42 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

These kinds of people want to ban cow farts also. 

Technically cow burps, but I take your meaning. 

Look, sin taxes are always going to be a popular source of revenue, but the punitive and outrageous taxes on tobacco in many countries are justified on grounds of public health. Especially in countries with publicly funded healthcare (basically every advanced democracy except the US and all the ones with insane taxes), they can make a seemingly strong argument about how much smokers are costing the Treasury. But the "experts" are appealing to "common sense", not reality.

Why? Because over their lifetimes smokers have lower healthcare costs than nonsmokers! Yes, you read that correctly. The reason is pretty simple: smokers don't live as long. In the modern world, most healthcare expenditures usually occur in the last few years of life. A lot of smokers die before hitting that point, and even if they develop cancer it's not really any more costly than a lot of other serious conditions (including cancer) than people are prone to as they age. And of course a shorter life means less routine expenses.

And then you have to factor in the reduced pension outlays from reduced lifespan - smokers die younger and thus spend fewer years in retirement. Even better for the Treasury, smoking related illnesses/deaths usually don't manifest until after someone's fully or near-fully paid into the public pension program. Bottom line, as studies like this demonstrate, after accounting for taxes smokers contribute more than they cost, at least in countries with European-style social welfare systems. 

Now a few caveats are in order - first, all relevant studies look at cigarette smoking. Since most cigar smokers don't inhale and smoke less than cigarette smokers, however, the savings are likely more dramatic on a per capita basis depending on where the stogie tax is relative to cigarettes. Second, the balance quickly shifts when you put value on your years. The cited studies shows that valued at $22,000 Euros for each quality adjusted year of life, the balance swings back to net negative. 

Anyway hope y'all find that interesting!

[Benz1209]

46 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

You're dealing with interests that want to eliminate all tobacco products from the face of the earth. It's beyond reasoning with them. 

At the end of the day these politicians are just virtue signalling and these 'public health advocates' as just whining like babies because it's their job to follow the anti-tobacco narrative. If these 'public health advocates' dare defend any sector of the tobacco industry, they will be shut down by all the other 'public health advocates'.

[vhampl03]

to @NSXCIGAR ‘s point....this is a fundamental assault on economic freedom and personal liberty....as well as stupid policy....cigarettes and snuff and gas station cigars are not the same product as premium cigars....nor are the consumers the same.  We know that correlation isn’t causation but I’ve read studies that cigar smokers are healthier than the general population.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Cigar Surgeon]

I've been yelling about this for years, it affects the US as well.

Halfwheel is pretty much the only online media site that posts smoking bans, and almost every day there's a new ban in a city or county in the US. Next up is flavor bans across California, then those flavor bans will extend to other States.

Once they're done with flavor bans they'll go back to smoking bans until you're at the level of Canadian restrictions.

[La_Tigre]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

But they have to repackage everything. That's why they're out. They don't have the manpower to repackage in volume or to open every tube and every petaca.

Don’t repackage. Package in 3 ct plain packaging at the factory. Just like Tubos. 5x3 from the source.

[El Presidente]

11 minutes ago, La_Tigre said:

Don’t repackage. Package in 3 ct plain packaging at the factory. Just like Tubos. 5x3 from the source.

every country doing plain packaging is doing it a little differently. 

One global plain packaging facility taking care of each country affected. Asia would make sense as PCC has experience and access to lower labour rates. 

[Meklown]

Just curious, does plain packaging refer only to the outer package or everything including the bands on the cigars? The ribbons inside cabs? The little leaflet with description? 

[El Presidente]

7 minutes ago, Meklown said:

Just curious, does plain packaging refer only to the outer package or everything including the bands on the cigars? The ribbons inside cabs? The little leaflet with description? 

everything. 

Boxes, bands, ribbons, even font. 

[SirVantes]

Welcome, Canadian brethren, to the authoritarian club.  What took you so long?

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/standardised-packaging-bigger-graphic-health-warnings-cigarettes-12880650

 

[La_Tigre]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

every country doing plain packaging is doing it a little differently. 

One global plain packaging facility taking care of each country affected. Asia would make sense as PCC has experience and access to lower labour rates. 

That makes sense. It’s like the college degree shell game  with each college having slightly different admission requirement to get into their professional program.

No chance to use one package that’s so restrictive it could meet all of the requirements for entry. I suspect?

[Connoisseur Kim]

That's really ridiculous as when WHO listed video game addiction as a substance dependecy disease like an alcholic abuse without acceptable proofs. I feel really sorry for Canadian FOH members such as @bundwallah and @Bijan. ?

Thankfully that I and other members still can get beautiful traditional CC boxes from our host though.

[djrey]

What a shame. However this is what happens when people elect big govt into their lives. Laissez-Faire! 

[Doctorossi]

13 hours ago, El Presidente said:

One huge brickbat to HSA as well. 

it has been 7 f*****g years since plain packaging came into play and your only response to the fall of another citadel is to delist product. What are you waiting for? The existing instore retail distribution model is fracturing with a real risk of disintegration if you lose a major European market. It will happen given any EU country can implement Plain Packaging immediately.  Get off your arse.

What do you propose they do?

[Dusk]

Welcome to the plain packaging club Canada! I feel your pain. 

Deepest sympathy, 

Australia ?

 

[Cigar Surgeon]

14 minutes ago, Dusk said:

Welcome to the plain packaging club Canada! I feel your pain. 

Deepest sympathy, 

Australia ?

 

Our only saving grace is that we have a porous border with the US and International package shipments. 

[Fugu]

33 minutes ago, djrey said:

What a shame. However this is what happens when people elect big govt into their lives. Laissez-Faire! 

No, isn‘t. Too simple an explanation. It’s societal! Seems deeply rooted today. That ever so proliferating life insurance mentality.

It’s a disgrace!

[djrey]

Regardless of where the sentiment comes from, the elected govt was handed the overreaching power they possess. 

[Puros Y Vino]

None of our parties are in favor of tobacco.  They're moving on to the next cash cow; weed. Which most users prefer to smoke. So much for "smoking is bad for you".  Tobacco has been vilified but never outright banned as it is a huge cash cow. So much that some provinces don't even give it a separate line item in the yearly Tax revenue reports. In Ontario it is lumped in with Alcohol sales and given a footnote along the lines of "tobacco #'s are too small so they're not worth breaking out".  

What really irks me is that our gov't put this out to the people to comment on but literally, the next day after that feedback mechanism closed. It was a done deal. Plain packaging was coming.  Many say the feedback process was just there for us commoners to let off some steam while our enlightened politicians made up their own minds and agreed to push this through.  Basically, democracy is dead in this country.  There is only the illusion of it.  The few, decide for the many and the many are only given the vote to feel like they are part of the system.

[SigloVI]

19 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

None of our parties are in favor of tobacco.  They're moving on to the next cash cow; weed. Which most users prefer to smoke. So much for "smoking is bad for you".  Tobacco has been vilified but never outright banned as it is a huge cash cow. So much that some provinces don't even give it a separate line item in the yearly Tax revenue reports. In Ontario it is lumped in with Alcohol sales and given a footnote along the lines of "tobacco #'s are too small so they're not worth breaking out".  

What really irks me is that our gov't put this out to the people to comment on but literally, the next day after that feedback mechanism closed. It was a done deal. Plain packaging was coming.  Many say the feedback process was just there for us commoners to let off some steam while our enlightened politicians made up their own minds and agreed to push this through.  Basically, democracy is dead in this country.  There is only the illusion of it.  The few, decide for the many and the many are only given the vote to feel like they are part of the system.

Unfortunately this is all coming to America if there is a regime change.  If this is the government people want then they deserve it.  I for one do not...

[Kitchen]

16 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

One has to question whether this will have any positive effect beyond appeasing public health advocates. From a revenue perspective it's obviously not going to be positive, and it may even have a net-negative public health outcome. As people become dissatisfied with plain packaged option and cigar stores close, they are more likely to seek cigars online for less money. They may end up smoking more! 

I'm guessing a negative effect.  I have found though that the bleeding hearts who put these into effect rarely, if ever, think about the 2nd and 3rd order consequences.  

Philly put in place a soda tax a few years ago with the proponents claiming it would make us healthy and bring in more needed tax revenue.  The opponents stated the obvious, that people would just decide to shop outside the city costing retailers business and produce less taxes along the way, but we were told we did not know what we were talking about.  After all, who would seriously drive outside the city to do their shopping, right?  About a year ago an extensive study found that shortly after the soda tax went into place, revenues of groceries in the city dropped whereas revenues of groceries in neighboring suburbs went up, and the aggregate increase was equal to the decrease in the city.  Not only that, the city now makes less absolute revenue from taxes on soda.  Also, many groceries closed due to the drop in revenues, and all of them were in poor neighborhoods, making the "grocery gap" worse.  

 

[El Presidente]

8 hours ago, Doctorossi said:

What do you propose they do?

Let's start by "something".

sensory retail displays featuring the major brands and their history. A wall of Montecristo one of Upmann, one Cohiba. 

unbanded bundles cascading down the front of each display (think loose pipe tobacco displays).