A question on Electrics and Hybrids

[lovethehaze]

For you sake I'm glad
Always worried that the increased reliability would put you guys out of business
That's actually a good thing for EV sales, as the main detraction it is assumed to selling EVs is that they won't have recurring maintenance to keep money coming in to the dealership. If you guys can make more money off EVs the sales people will be pushed to sell them.
As to the rest, the batteries can be used/recycled for energy storage, and the cars can be junked/cubed just as easily as regular cars.

Diesel is best money maker for all for us .... always break constantly due to the crazy regulations set by the government, just not feasible to actually make cars that run on diesel in such a way. Too bad b/c the torque and milage is great ! But who said anything about actual driving enjoyment and cost savings as part of this thread.


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[SCgarman]

The OP question obviously depends on what country in the world and region in that country. I live in Virginia, USA. Gasoline is dirt cheap. $2.25/ Gallon. I see plenty of huge full size SUV and pickup trucks everywhere. There appear to be a couple Tesla cars in the development where we live. Apparently they are very expensive, and according to another forum I belong the members there critique the poor fit and finish of the cars. I have no intention of buying an EV unless the government eventually forces their hand in the situation. Now California has just mandated that new gasoline powered vehicles be eliminated by a hard date 2030??, somebody correct me if wrong. But that state is an enigma unto itself in the USA. And as another poster stated, they have rolling blackouts there due to the hot weather, good luck charging and powering millions of EV's there. 

[BrightonCorgi]

United States needs to re-do the power grid.  Too much electricity is lost in transmission.  US power grid is not owned by government or centrally managed.  Most of the power grid is not protected against Electric Magnetic Pulse's.  An EMP attack or solar event would take down our whole system for good amount of time. ?

[mprach024]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

Maybe but hydrogen is currently generated from fossil fuels, as it is way too expensive to do from electricity. And it's still more expensive than gas. The cars are more expensive than gas cars too. And the performance generally sucks.

Exactly, hydrogen solves the environmental aspect, but not the cost, and there’s no end roads being made in infrastructure to say we are close to this being a reality.  Long term perhaps but not soon.

[Bijan]

12 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Exactly, hydrogen solves the environmental aspect, but not the cost, and there’s no end roads being made in infrastructure to say we are close to this being a reality.  Long term perhaps but not soon.

Yeah! If electricity were free and plentiful it would be a no brainer. Free electricity->free clean hydrogen. No fuel generation carbon emissions, no tailpipe carbon emissions, no battery production carbon emissions.

But right now, there's still carbon emissions at the fuel generation.

And even with cheap enough electricity to make the hydrogen without carbon, battery EVs will be 3 times less expensive to charge (market force), and 3 times less electricity use (environment aspect)...

[helix]

Long term for certain . Toyota is looking long on Hydrogen.

[Bijan]

34 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

Apparently they are very expensive, and according to another forum I belong the members there critique the poor fit and finish of the cars.

As to the price, probably not much more expensive than some of the pickup trucks (defintely a different segment however).

And the poor fit and finish is 50/50 reality and just the type of people who buy Teslas. They're built in California so they have to use crappy paint, and they have some build issues occasionally, that are decreasing, but a lot of Tesla owners will shed tears if they see a stone chip on their cars...

[Ryan]

Interesting point from this article.

"the UK’s best-selling car last December wasn’t a Volkswagen Golf or a Ford Fiesta, but the electric Tesla Model 3, which starts at £40,490."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2264265-electric-cars-best-ever-year-is-a-tipping-point-for-green-transport/#ixzz6ixrif3Tn

2025 isn't looking too outlandish. At least in some countries. As I said earlier in the thread, Norway is already there.

[PigFish]

First try removing all the government subsidies and see how they sell.

I see Musk is now the richest man on the planet. I have to wonder how many middle-class tax payers could not buy one of his cars due to the fact that money was taken from their taxes to support him becoming the worlds richest man, so other rich guys could buy his cars!

How do you like that for wealth redistribution? 

-the Pig

 

[Bijan]

Well I could have gotten $14,000 in subsidies if I had moved earlier but ended up getting the car without any subsidies. I would say maybe half the Tesla cars are sold without subsidies (most of US market right now).

 

And general motors got roughly the same per car subsides as Tesla $7,500 x 500,000 but it didn't help them much.

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

Well I could have gotten $14,000 in subsidies if I had moved earlier but ended up getting the car without any subsidies. I would say maybe half the Tesla cars are sold without subsidies (most of US market right now).

 

And general motors got roughly the same per car subsides as Tesla $7,500 x 500,000 but it didn't help them much.

I was not really taking a swipe at people buying his cars. Just the ostensible belief that the private sector cannot develop anything without some handout from government. I find it interesting that the worlds richest people get some subsidy or some form of spiff from government.

I suppose I should be happy that government at least funds a winner now and again. I still remember Solyndra. There have probably been 100 more since then!

-Piggy

[Cep]

I find it funny and sad how there are so many ppl getting so butthurt over electric cars. The amount of false information out there is amazing.  

Electric cars are better in every way than ICE cars.

The sooner the better. 

 

[Hammer Smokin']

i know my good friend is a mechanic, and he does not like electric vehicles. 

they don't require nearly enough maintenance. 

ICE engines are what mechanics like. 

 

[Hookmaker]

I find it funny and sad how there are so many ppl getting so butthurt over electric cars. The amount of false information out there is amazing.  
Electric cars are better in every way than ICE cars.
The sooner the better. 
 

Exactly, - so no reason to discuss with them. Reality will kick in some time though


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[Hookmaker]

i know my good friend is a mechanic, and he does not like electric vehicles. 
they don't require nearly enough maintenance. 
ICE engines are what mechanics like. 
 

Another fact. I’m the proud owner of an EV for 7 years now (non disclosed brand name that starts with a T).
Apart from tires I’ve had 0 -ZERO - repair costs and most notably (and important to me) NO BS from any mechanic trying to suck out my wallet with some technical ding that is broken and needs to be fixed and that I don’t have a clue about.
Every young man I’ve met who has told me he want to be a mechanic I’ve tried to discourage - absolutely no future there from in 25 years and going forward


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[Markspring1978]

15 hours ago, Cep said:

The amount of false information out there is amazing.  

Agreed. Most people don’t want to talk about the energy source that these require to operate. Most don’t want to be honest about the mining of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries. Most don’t want to consider the pending environmental disaster that is coming from billions of electric batteries that will require disposal. 

You’re right. Lots of false information. 

[Grateful13]

26 minutes ago, Markspring1978 said:

Agreed. Most people don’t want to talk about the energy source that these require to operate. Most don’t want to be honest about the mining of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries. Most don’t want to consider the pending environmental disaster that is coming from billions of electric batteries that will require disposal. 

You’re right. Lots of false information. 

Well said. 

[Hookmaker]

Agreed. Most people don’t want to talk about the energy source that these require to operate. Most don’t want to be honest about the mining of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries. Most don’t want to consider the pending environmental disaster that is coming from billions of electric batteries that will require disposal. 
You’re right. Lots of false information. 

My point proven - discussion is pointless


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[Bijan]

To address those 3 points. Over its lifetime an ev powered by coal power plant will have less emissions than a regular gas or diesel car (due to triple or more efficiency of ev power train) and grids are only getting greener.

Disingenuous to talk about lithium mining when oil production is getting increasingly environmentally damaging as well (oil sands and other sources).

Batteries will both be reused for storage as well as recycled most likely. I don't know if it will be as efficient a recycling as lead acid batteries in cars but that is 99% a closed loop.

[PigFish]

All the fatalism... two sides cannot talk... horse pucky!

Why not talk about issues if people want to. Why do those that have EVs need to rationalize their existence? They don't. My opinion is certainly not going to get you to sell a car that works for you, why would it?

I do find it amusing about the butt-hurt comment. Why be so butt-hurt about the ICE? Is it because its use is .... (you pick the reason, I won't feed into it).

Me, I like a free discussion of ideas. Hell, I might learn something. I have as a matter of fact. At least one person here wanted an EV enough to pay full boat for it without subsidy. Maybe that is an indication of market viability.

I am talking about fact, and when facts come back, they are often worth reading! Here are some facts. This is not an attack on anything. It is just a depiction of reality.

This is from Nissans website, copied the date of the post.

I am a gardener, or other small business that does not do business out of a metro cubicle. I take myself and an assistant, (I am an actual employer, not and employee) to a job everyday I have work. (I am not a real gardener, I just play one on FoH)

The difference between the price of the Leaf (an unexciting car) and my work van (another unexciting car) is $13,490.00 USD. I take some real numbers, like unleaded fuel at 2.75/gal, and actual milage like 22.3 mpg and I find that the difference in cost allows me to drive my NV200 109K miles before it equals the cost of the Leaf. Now the Leaf has to be charged and that cost is not calculated. I also have to make some midnight calls to my clients 400 miles away... and guess what (in this case I am playing a fire alarm contractor)?

So folks, the discussion is not that EVs don't have a place, especially for those who like and can afford them. It is not a hate thread, not from me anyway.

Facts are facts people, and for working people whose vehicles are a big part of their living, today, there are limited or no options for EVs. EVs are wishlist items.

I don't hate EVs! I hate government taking my money and giving it to a guy who makes them, making the guy who makes them the richest guy on the planet with my money! I don't care what the moral high road is here. I am talking facts.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Bijan]

@PigFish I am a big ev enthusiast but I agree fully with what you say. Right now an ev makes sense if you need a sedan or small or mid size suv to drive a few miles (short city driving so you can get a cheap used one) or very many but within the range of the car miles a day (long commute so you can reach the break even on fuel quicker).

If you need a van, truck, minivan, etc. The electric vehicles don't exist yet. But a lot of companies are working on trucks and for the commercial market semis and vans. No one seems to be working on minivans yet as far as I know.

[Zigatoh]

On 1/8/2021 at 1:59 PM, Ryan said:

Interesting point from this article.

"the UK’s best-selling car last December wasn’t a Volkswagen Golf or a Ford Fiesta, but the electric Tesla Model 3, which starts at £40,490."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2264265-electric-cars-best-ever-year-is-a-tipping-point-for-green-transport/#ixzz6ixrif3Tn

2025 isn't looking too outlandish. At least in some countries. As I said earlier in the thread, Norway is already there.

One thought about this, sales last year fell through the floor for obvious reasons, and the best selling car of december cost over £40k! Just a guess but that suggests to me the people who bought cars last december were relatively minted, and Tesla are definitely in the "look at what I'm driving while I drop off the kids" category, a bit range rover... Basically I don't think car sales over the last year can be compared meaningfully with any other year.

[Hookmaker]

@pigfish I don’t disagree with you at all.

 

2 things:

It is my feeling (i might be wrong) that “facts” have become somewhat distorted in the world today and more so in the US I believe. EV’s have become caught in a malicious and pointless fact fight.

I disagree with you on subsidising. I believe that some governmental support must sometimes be in place to further advancement. Having said that, EV tech might not need subsidising, but some measures are necessary to fuel the change from ICE to EV.

In Norway there is no direct subsidising, in stead EVs are tax and VAT free (all other vehicles are taxed 150-180% plus 25% VAT). Furthermore parking is free and there are no road tolls. This is indirect subsidising of course but in my mind a better way. It only works in countries with vehicle taxes.

EV Vehicle sales in Norway last year just surpassed 50% of total sales, pretty damned nice in a country that thrives on sales of carbon based fuel to the world.

The very cheap EV compared to the expensively taxed ICE drives the sale (inevitably) but it has also changed the attitude significantly away from carbon based fuel consumption.

 

 

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[Markspring1978]

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

To address those 3 points. Over its lifetime an ev powered by coal power plant will have less emissions than a regular gas or diesel car (due to triple or more efficiency of ev power train) and grids are only getting greener.

They are? How so? If you are seriously trying to convince me that coal fired power is “greener” than gasoline, your credibility is in serious jeopardy. 

https://www.greenamerica.org/fight-dirty-energy/amazon-build-cleaner-cloud/coal-why-it-dirty

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

Disingenuous to talk about lithium mining when oil production is getting increasingly environmentally damaging as well (oil sands and other sources).

Disingenuous when you just claimed that coal is cleaner than gasoline? Have you actually researched open pit lithium mining? Perhaps it’s time for a little self-study. And it’s not just lithium, it is a host of rare earth minerals, that when mined wreak enormous damage. 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

Batteries will both be reused for storage as well as recycled most likely. I don't know if it will be as efficient a recycling as lead acid batteries in cars but that is 99% a closed loop.

Clearly, you don’t know. You are comparing apples with broccoli. 

I don’t have any issue with EV. But I prefer the market decide. That rather than an ideological bias that is artificially supported by government interference and a population that is pretentiously virtue signaling. 

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, Markspring1978 said:

They are? How so? If you are seriously trying to convince me that coal fired power is “greener” than gasoline, your credibility is in serious jeopardy. 

https://www.greenamerica.org/fight-dirty-energy/amazon-build-cleaner-cloud/coal-why-it-dirty

Coal is not cleaner than gasoline for the same power output obviously! Coal may be cleaner for a third or a fourth the power output which is what would be the case with EVs.

You say where will we find the energy when EVs require a third or fourth the energy of gas cars and we can get electricity from many sources including gasoline itself, which even if we ran EVs on gasoline power plants (not sensible but humor it) we would end up using less than half the current gasoline.