If I'm To Believe What I Read...

[Colt45]

There are over seven million tobacco use related deaths per year globally. So as not to have any spin, zero use of tobacco equals zero tobacco related deaths. Do we really care about saving lives, the greater good, flattening the curve, etc, etc....

I've had family / friends die of parkinson's, heart disease, lung cancer, brain cancer, aids, drug overdoses, suicide....

The constant self righteous indignation, hypocrisy, victimization i see  / read every day  makes me puke up in my mouth a little every morning.

 

[brianrex64]

Well Stated !!

[El Presidente]

Unless I am mistaken, to smoke or not is a personal choice? 

 

[Neuralpath]

Personally, I think we might want to abstain from this sort of discussion on this board, as such discussions can get political and nasty quickly. In short, I’ll just say that there are many  perspectives on this, and name calling people who may be hurting, fearful, etc and may be coping with sick/dead family and friends isn’t needed right now. Also, all your examples are not infectious diseases that are in any sense similar to COVID-19, and in addition, our societies have spent billions trying to eradicate those sources of death as well.

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, Neuralpath said:

Personally, I think we might want to abstain from this sort of discussion on this board, as such discussions can get political and nasty quickly. In short, I’ll just say that there are many  perspectives on this, and name calling people who may be hurting, fearful, etc and may be coping with sick/dead family and friends isn’t needed right now. Also, all your examples are not infectious diseases that are in any sense similar to COVID-19, and in addition, our societies have spent billions trying to eradicate those sources of death as well.

Well said ?

[dobbs]

16 hours ago, Neuralpath said:

Personally, I think we might want to abstain from this sort of discussion on this board, as such discussions can get political and nasty quickly. In short, I’ll just say that there are many  perspectives on this, and name calling people who may be hurting, fearful, etc and may be coping with sick/dead family and friends isn’t needed right now. Also, all your examples are not infectious diseases that are in any sense similar to COVID-19, and in addition, our societies have spent billions trying to eradicate those sources of death as well.

bravo!

-dobbs

[Colt45]

17 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Unless I am mistaken, to smoke or not is a personal choice? 

 

Of course, like drinking alcohol and riding motorcycles

[topdiesel]

50 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

Of course, like drinking alcohol and riding motorcycles

And going out in public.  No one is forced to come in contact with others.

[Colt45]

20 minutes ago, topdiesel said:

And going out in public.  No one is forced to come in contact with others.

True, but it gets a little sketchy when it comes to essential workers. As much as I've been trying to limit any public interaction, I always wonder, when I go to the grocery store for example, if the people working there really want to be there. If my being there causes angst.

Having my car serviced a week or so ago was a surreal experience.

[lovethehaze]

1 hour ago, Colt45 said:

Having my car serviced a week or so ago was a surreal experience.

So this is what I do ... i write servce, for 16 years now at a dealer In a pretty large city that services fairly high end cars... BMW, Maserati, Bentley, Rolls, Lambo, Bugatti and so fourth. 
 

While one wouldn’t imagine too many essential workers drive these cars, one may be surprised how many doctors, lawyers, politicians, city workers, builders, developers, nurses, electricians, laborers, pharmacy techs, pharmacists, restaurant owners, servers, bartenders, delivery guys, Uber/Lyft, factory workers, policemen/women, firefighters and on and on and on do drive them. Maybe this is why this city is broke ... but that’s a totally different conversation. 

We were given the choice to stay home and be laid off or keep working.... was it really a choice ? I make too much to get government money and if I claim unemployment I get what ever percentage they decide to pay me from my base salary. So a certain percentage of about 25% of what I make, which means maybe 10-15% of my normal income. I am not a mathematician nor an economist but I can add pretty good. This won’t get me real far ...

So basically the choice was stay home and get rolled over or work, b/c while I make too much to get federal help I clearly Don’t make enough To save tons of money. I am pretty conservative with my money while I have a few weaknesses I don’t have too many. So I am blessed to be in a decent position for the next 6 months or so no matter what. 
 

Our owner has been very generous and added incentives to basically even out our money. We are down maybe 70-80 cars a day. Typically we servce 100-140 cars a day and now we are at about 30-60 per day. It has not been easy to get these cars in. I am blessed to have lots and lots of clients and have all personal numbers so I am basically working 24/7 getting cars in to make the almost the same money.
 

I am not complaining at all, in fact when u ask do these workers want to be there, YES I do b/c I need to make a living. I have a 8 month old son tomorrow, god bless and a wife who doesn’t work so employment is essential to me and I would guess most anyone reading this no matter what their profession is. 
 

I would also like to say each city and area is different and should be treated as such. For example unlike NYC, where the Epidemic is real, the feds built 3100 beds in McCormick Place and literally I have a client who is a nurse practitioner who is employed there. They are paying her and her hotel room for who knows how long and of those 3100 beds .... 1 was in use ..... this was last Thursday so I am not saying it’s still like this today. Don’t people at some point have to become responsible for their actions and choices, isn't this what free will and freedom  is about ? My coworkers wife is a nurse and she sends pics of the hospital being empty and many dr’s i speak with daily say they are letting staff go now....and starting to get people in for other surgeries and needs now. 

I will leave all political and personal views out of this b/c that has no bearing on my and my families survival. My whole point was each individual is different but my response to do I want to be at work is a profound YES and I truly feel blessed for the opportunity. This is just one forgotten essential persons point of view I gather there are many. 

stay safe FOH 

[BrightonCorgi]

32 minutes ago, lovethehaze said:

So this is what I do ... i write servce, for 16 years now at a dealer In a pretty large city that services fairly high end cars... BMW, Maserati, Bentley, Rolls, Lambo, Bugatti and so fourth.

You work for Napleton's?

[lovethehaze]

Just now, BrightonCorgi said:

You work for Napleton's?

No downtown.....

[El Hoze]

Good perspective @lovethehaze. I got the email below from my dealer that sells Rolls/Bentley/Aston and I have to admit I kind of chuckled at first thinking “thank God you’re there to fix my neighbor’s purple convertible Rolls” but anyone who can go to work right now in a safe manner is a huge positive for everyone. I also have a little guy at home, 16 months. Wishing you and your family the best! 

[lovethehaze]

55 minutes ago, El Hoze said:

I also have a little guy at home, 16 months. Wishing you and your family the best! 

Back at you. Stay safe !

[gweilgi]

On 4/21/2020 at 5:49 AM, Colt45 said:

There are over seven million tobacco use related deaths per year globally. So as not to have any spin, zero use of tobacco equals zero tobacco related deaths. Do we really care about saving lives, the greater good, flattening the curve, etc, etc....

I've had family / friends die of parkinson's, heart disease, lung cancer, brain cancer, aids, drug overdoses, suicide....

The constant self righteous indignation, hypocrisy, victimization i see  / read every day  makes me puke up in my mouth a little every morning.

 

Is it hypocrisy?  IMHO, it has more to do with perception bias.

 

 

As a species, we tend to get very upset and run around screaming loudly "something needs to be done NOW" about sudden events that intrude heavily into our awareness, rather than ongoing processes and developments which sort of fade into background noise.  For instance, we all remember 9/11 and the 3,000 people who died on that awful day ... but how many of us are even aware that more people than that die every month on American roads?  The same with the virus: last year in Australia, more than 310,000 people went to hospital with the "normal" influenza virus and more than 900 of them died.  Worldwide, tuberculosis and HIV/Aids kill about 1,500,000 people every year.  Measles kill around 115,000 people.  But when I tell people this, they are sore surprised.  It had completely passed them by.  More: they often react with "yabbut 'RONA!!!" in denial of the numbers.

[El Presidente]

20 hours ago, gweilgi said:

"yabbut 'RONA!!!" in denial of the numbers.

 

Yabbut ? ...."its just the flu"...but how many temporary morgues were in hospital carparks? How many people were temporarily buried in parks....or stored in ice rinks?

People tend to ignore those little occurrences.

"The last Asia tsunami killed 250000 people and we still go swimming! "..............That holds about as much relevance IMHO.

 

[La_Tigre]

Don’t believe what you read.

Flag the health insurance/ID as this sentiment and society can immediately triage who gets care and who gets to die alone in a hallway... Do we really care about the intent to treat every patient anyway?

[BoliDan]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

Yabbut ? ...."its just the flu"...but how many temporary morgues were in hospital carparks? How many people were temporarily buried in parks....or stored in ice rinks?

People tend to ignore those little occurrences.

The last Asia tsunami killed 250000 people and we still go swimming! That holds about as much relevance IMHO.

 

This thread confuses me and I'm not sure if i'm addressing this properly, but I'll give my opinion anyway?!?!

The number of death from some other "thing" argument make zero sense, no?

"X causes Y numbers of deaths per year, so this is nothing."

Covid has been only been a global problem for 2 months and grows every day. Why are people comparing it to annual death rates? It's not over. You can't affirm data until it is either finished or that it reached a comparable time of the metric you are comparing it to. In this case you still have ten months to make a claim that it is comparable to any "x" annual death rate. Call me a sensational social scientist, but I have had enough statistics courses to know what is science and what is political lies.

Health care workers are a specialized field,  we need them and they are dying!. They are fighting everyday of their life, have full beds , deny people of major concern, and cannot go home and hug their family after 12 hour days. We have freezer trucks in the back of hospitals to handle the amount of bodies at this point. we have to bury people in mass graves and hope family claim them later because of the death rate... "TWO MONTHS". This is not something you can statistically compare until the vaccine has been made available.

The last point I would like to make is similar to Robs. It doesn't matter if tobacco kills "x" or Car Crashes kill "Y". If I drown in a pool, four other people are also not going to drown simply because they came in contact with me. You will spread this disease and kill people a week before you even have a cough. People don't have a choice of how they die here. Whether you are mad or not, it is unbelievable that people are okay that they are responsible for someone else's death for the reason that they are contagious and will probably get through it,

The puke in my mouth comes from the selfishness of people willing to risk other people's lives because they are less vulnerable.

[Fuzz]

There are differences with Covid-19 and other communicable diseases:

1. Measles, tuberculosis, influenza, malaria etc - we have vaccines to reduce the potential deaths if there was no vaccine. Some people cannot use those vaccines, but then there are a growing number who choose not too for all sorts of reasons (some based on hogwash).
2. HIV/AIDs - we have methods to stop the spread, but many choose not to use those methods or believe the risk is low enough to not worry about infection. The number of infections that result from outside factors (eg outside of your personal control, blood transfusions, malicious infection etc) is minimal. And then there are medications to help you live much longer, managing the disease with a fairly good quality of life, than if you got the death sentence in the 80s.

With Covid-19, we have no vaccine or medication to manage the symptoms at the moment (if we ever manage to develop one), beyond social distancing and increasing hygiene practices. Should we be concerned with how fast the infection rate is and it's lethality? I believe so. Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Again, I believe so. Any chance we can to reduce the potential for infection, the better. If this means a fair amount of pain right now, as opposed to a helluva lot of pain later, so be it. And this is coming from a business owner who has seen a reduction in business by more than 50% over the last 2 months. I am bleeding money left, right and centre, hoping that that bright light I see at the end of the tunnel is daylight... and not another freight train.

Heck, if we do get a vaccine for Covid-19, what are the chances that we become blase about it after a number of years, just like we do with the flu? How many times do you hear people say they can't be bothered or outright refuse the flu vaccine, despite it's potential lethality? Same goes for malaria, measles, TB, polio, etc. Ditto for HIV/AIDs. Less than a generation since SARs and MERs, we have been caught flat-footed.

Anything I see in the media I take with a grain of salt (there is always some bias). However, when you see see the affect this is having on our healthcare workers, can you really say this is not a big deal?

[Capt. Corona]

Quote

If I'm To Believe What I Read...

Believe half of what you read...one third of what you hear...and almost none of what you see. ?

 

[Colt45]

8 hours ago, BoliDan said:

The puke in my mouth comes from the selfishness of people willing to risk other people's lives because they are less vulnerable.

Certainly one possibility.

8 hours ago, Fuzz said:

we have been caught flat-footed.

That's a real pisser for me. Where I live, on the state and federal level, that at the very least there were not enough things like masks, gloves, gowns, that they had to scramble to find supply, and have things shipped in from overseas....

[Fuzz]

6 hours ago, Colt45 said:

That's a real pisser for me. Where I live, on the state and federal level, that at the very least there were not enough things like masks, gloves, gowns, that they had to scramble to find supply, and have things shipped in from overseas....

The Aus Federal Govt made a big noise about our huge stock supply of PPE in early March. Yet every doc I know tells me PPE is scarce and supplies are dwindling faster than they can get it in. I even tried to help my doc friends by trying to import equipment, but ran afoul of the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration). Too many hurdles to jump, too little time to work through the regs, and by the time I do stock will be flowing in from the big companies. And some companies are really taking the mickey, inflating prices well beyond what would normally be called highway robbery (google Livingstone International). Right now I'm working on the basic non-regulated stuff, so the high end stuff doesn't get pinched by those affluent public consumers who don't need surgical grade PPE.

[CaptainQuintero]

10 hours ago, Fuzz said:

 we have been caught flat-footed.

 

  I think it's a great point, and governments aren't necessarily to blame to the extent the media are making out. It seems most were prepared to a degree, but for an influenza type virus. The modelling turned out wrong and it's a Corona virus. Plus how do you sell to the public huge procurement programs when the problem hasn't arose yet.

  I know in the UK the media has been hammering the government over lack of PPE. But there were stocks, tens of millions of items ready to go from the readiness stores left over from the cold war and for terror related disasters. The issue was the upper level NHS management couldn't organise the distribution effectively. The government was getting the blame (and still is) so the government got the army to step in and start distribution.

  I don't think anyone can be blamed too harshly unless they are actively trying to not help.

  Eg the UK bought millions of antigen tests as soon as possible, it turns out they aren't accurate enough so they are getting slaughtered in the press. If it had turned out they were working accurately enough then they would have been getting praised. I think I'd the good intent is there, at any level in life, then you can't judge too harshly, especially through the lens of hindsight

  I honestly think the vast majority of people making decisions are doing the best the can in a situation is incredibly fluid, and where data is unreliable at best. I think on the whole, most countries seem to be doing ok all things considered. It looks like Africa and India have dodged a huge bullet and fibbers crossed it stays that way

[topdiesel]

The essential workers have stepped up and are keeping the "unessential" alive.  To them, I say thank you.  They are heroes.  I don't care what your political persuasion, the front line workers put their lives on the line every minute of every day to help others.

This whole thing sucks.  Everyone has a different view on how to handle it and what is best.  Each person thinks their methods or suggestions would be best.  This whole pandemic effects more than anyone person or group of people can comprehend.  Every solution seems to impact millions of other things.  I understand that things must be done for safety, but I also understand that things must be done for the economy and to protect personal freedoms.  I know I am not smart enough to resolve any of the big issues, I am simply trying to keep my family sane and alive after six weeks being home-bound.  That and keeping my business afloat and trying to keep my employees paid.

[gweilgi]

7 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  I think it's a great point, and governments aren't necessarily to blame to the extent the media are making out. It seems most were prepared to a degree, but for an influenza type virus. The modelling turned out wrong and it's a Corona virus. Plus how do you sell to the public huge procurement programs when the problem hasn't arose yet.

That.

Governments cannot win.  If they spend money on crisis supplies in good times, they get hammered by the press (and public) for wasting money.  If they instead spend the money on something else -- schools, nurses, whatever -- they get lashed by the media (and public) for their failure when disaster does strike.  And if they do prepare but for the wrong sort of disaster, there will be an ear-splitting cacophony from all the armchair oracles blaming them for their failure to foresee the unforeseeable.  

 

7 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  I know in the UK the media has been hammering the government over lack of PPE. But there were stocks, tens of millions of items ready to go from the readiness stores left over from the cold war and for terror related disasters. The issue was the upper level NHS management couldn't organise the distribution effectively. The government was getting the blame (and still is) so the government got the army to step in and start distribution.

  I don't think anyone can be blamed too harshly unless they are actively trying to not help.

  Eg the UK bought millions of antigen tests as soon as possible, it turns out they aren't accurate enough so they are getting slaughtered in the press. If it had turned out they were working accurately enough then they would have been getting praised. I think I'd the good intent is there, at any level in life, then you can't judge too harshly, especially through the lens of hindsight

  I honestly think the vast majority of people making decisions are doing the best the can in a situation is incredibly fluid, and where data is unreliable at best. I think on the whole, most countries seem to be doing ok all things considered. It looks like Africa and India have dodged a huge bullet and fibbers crossed it stays that way

IMHO, if there is one big lesson to be learned from this mess, it is that all countries can improve on their disaster plans.  In this day and age of easy global travel, diseases spread as easily as buying an airline ticket.  We have had several shots across the bow, and we need to be fully aware that there is way worse out there than SARS, MERS or COVID-19.  Next time round, there cannot be any excuse for not having plans in place, for not having enough stocks of PPE or other emergency supplies, or for not having the distribution down pat.