WINNER ANNOUNCED!! So, did aging stop in 2005?

[Puros Y Vino]

I disagree as well. Most of my stock is post 2005. 

Some examples of constantly evolving cigars in my humidor

2005 Punch DC

2006 Cohiba EL Piramides

2009 Mag 50's, Cohiba Esplendido and RACF

2010 PSD4's

2011 La Escepcion Selectos Finos and Fundies

2012 Monte EL. 

 

[Lotusguy]

If cigars older than 5 years are over the hill, I have to purge 70% of my collection

Luckily, that hasn’t been my experience. I have quite a few boxes from 2002 and 2003 that are still vibrant. 2007 and 2008 are still evolving as well. It’s strange (as someone pointed out above), there seem to be very few 2004 - 2006 boxes around. I think I have about two handfuls only. Was that the low in terms of manufacturing volume after the bubble and they have just mostly been smoked?

To answer the original question, IMO it did not.

[PigFish]

How many times do I have to smoke the same cigar to tell???

I need to get some of the multi-smoke cigars y'all are smokin'. Mine just smoke once!

 

This was about the time that I abandoned all aging arguments. A good cigar will be around awhile, if you save it to smoke later. No two cigars are exactly alike, as the many 'guess your cigar' contests will attest to. Profile, aging, all wild speculation from both sides, the optimist and the pessimist alike.

I generally like cigars form 06 to 08. My argument about them is that they appeared to me, to all start tasing alike. I am not going to complain about any good cigar, but cigars from other eras appear to have more personality. To come full circle, my opinion about these cigars has not changed.

-the Pig

[Lotusguy]

I don't see the point of aging cigars these days since CCs have become more smokeable when they are young.

In my case, aging is what happens when you buy many more cigars than you smoke. I don’t really plan for it. I agree that those past few years I have rarely had the full ammonia blast associated with young cigars.

[LLC]

I don't see the point of aging cigars these days since CCs have become more smokeable when they are young.

I agree that many cigars do smoke better young now but that doesn’t mean they won’t get even better with age.


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[OZCUBAN]

Whilst not having done the research my personal experience has always been on a case by case scenario ??

[Tstew75]

Bullshit.

So many great current vintage CCs will age amazingly...16/17s are both great current examples. Like fine wine, you have to try them & extrapolate. It's all good if your (experienced) palate tells you balance is there...

Don't buy into the poo poo train.

[Emaresee]

I have some 06 P2's and D4's. They are aging delightfully. They were bold and punchy in their youth - and gave me something akin to 'tongue bite' that pipe smokers sometimes get. These days they are all together easier going. They remain both to be a lovely supple spicy stick. 

I've had some '99 Punch (i regretfully cant remember the vitola... maybe a 38/40g about 4" long)... which were attrociously constructed... easier to suck a cricket ball through a garden hose... and in recent years their taste was very definitely on the way down... 

I've also have some '99 Flor de Cano selectos in the last few years that remain to be sweet as a nut... and are still smoking exceptionally well. 

I have a small stock of  '00  SCdH La Fuerza... and 04 El Morro ... both are superb and have been smoking well for the last few years. 

Not sure what I take from this... other than not all sticks in the dark years were stinkers... but not all can last... 

[SCgarman]

My oldest box is a Juan Lopez #1 dated 2005. Not sure about opinions for 2005 boxes, but these are very underwhelming. Fairly one dimensional and super tightly rolled tent pegs. Not sure if I will ever finish smoking the box they are that mundane. 

[Fugu]

As I understand it Rob is aiming at discussing first and foremost changes in blending, and in particular Havana introducing freezing in 2004. If we were to discuss the transition in main tobacco strains and its effects, then we had to go further back and compare pre-1997 to after. So, this here, the 2005-2010 stretch, is precluding major strain changes, although (and I am not a follower of the narrative that after 1997 everything was only a shadow of its former self) strains are continually changing anyway. Perhaps - and that's my take on it - this all is also a question of what one is expecting from a cigar maturing.

There really is no question that cigars still today can make a wonderful transition during their maturing process. Which, for me, goes far beyond the aspects of "rounding edges" or dissipating ammonia or softening tannins. The aging potential is still there, following 1997 and also post-2005. A lot of, if not the vast majority of cigars from that "modern" period do prove that to me, with some of these going strong for now two decades and counting. Granted, most are accessible sooner today, but I have come to see that as a pro and not as a con.

Still, there are always good and poor production years or even good and bad runs within years, as we all know too well. While holding a great many good boxes from the period in question ('05-'10) which developed into magnificent smokes, with a balance and an expression of complexity and depth that they simply didn't show when young (and without further name droppping - anyone checked out the 2009 Boli Esp 2 recently? - had been frozen twice by the way...), as much do I own boxes that appear to likely prove the claim which Rob is sketching in the above: Such as e.g. those 2006 and 2001 boxes of VRC, with the 2001s now smoking way better than the '06. Also, some excellent as well as some completely bland '05/'06 Mag46 are coming to mind, a period of inconsistency, which I feel had contributed a lot to (temporarily) damaging some of the reputation of that Upmann stalwart. (While e.g at the same time, the humble SP Beli and Coronas from '06 have developed into consistently great, if not magical, cigars for me; same holding for a cab of 07 SLR Church). A box of "dead" '07 HUCJ - a poor, cheap cigar at the start with no aging in this world having altered it. Currently (just?) flat 2007 desD, a shadow of its 2003 brethren smoking a dream. Then Boli Inmensas of 2003 and 2008: Both good years, good boxes, with the 2003 having aged into wonderfully integrated cigars, the 2008 still smelling slightly ammoniacal like they were just rolled the other day (so what now - sign of good or poor aging?). Then again, my Boli CG boxes from their final run in 2016 seem to kill my likewise good 2007 and 2008 cabs, future aging notwithstanding. With all that being said, I fail to see any general trend or a "fault line" there. I call it variation.

Much of the outcome of longer-term aging is not least a matter of proper storage and preservation, which often is the big unknown in the equation. In particular when not aged start-to-finish your own.

Therefore, two times 'no' from my side: Aging properties may have changed, but aging in general didn't 'stop' following 2005. And second, the introduction of freezing in Havana has no detectable negative effect, as far as my taste buds are concerned. And by far do I prefer it over chemical fumigation, even if there were a minor effect.

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Much of the outcome of longer-term aging is not least a matter of proper storage and preservation, which often is the big unknown in the equation. In particular when not aged start-to-finish your own.

 

Correct. Nothing like storing in proper conditions yourself from start to finish if possible.

[MD Puffer]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:42 PM, El Presidente said:

So, did aging stop in 2005?

 

Well I just watched some FOHvideos from 2008 and I can say, without a doubt, that no- aging did not stop in 2005.

?

[GavLew79]

Not a lot of empirical evidence to add to the debate but what I can say is that the humble ERdM Choix Supreme from 2008 (TEB xxx 08 all smoked up to last year) and 2009 (ASO NOV 09 two left, still going great) are absolutely fantastic and I wish I had a time machine to go back and stockpile. 

Diplomaticos No. 2 SAR AGO 2011 (sorry, slightly out of the date period) smoked brilliantly up to last year. 

Two boxes of VR Maestros 2007 smoked so well in 2016 I decided to put the third away for another 5 years!!!

On this limited evidence, I would say yes. The sheer 'integration' of smooth, sweet, nutty tobacco flavours from cigars in this period had stopped me in my tracks many a time. 

[Derboesekoenig]

By the time we understand how the aging process has developed our cigars, it's almost too late. At least if you want more boxes of that particular cigar...unless you luck out or find at auction? I find I am enjoying lots of fresh cigars quite a bit but we also have to take into account that not only is everyone's taste preferences different, but our taste buds change every few years as well. This is a very loaded question, but fun to discuss ad nauseum.

[MoeFOH]

Great topic and some interesting replies throughout the thread. 

The winner of the El Pres random draw sampler is @GavLew79 !!

Congrats!! 

Please PM your details to me @MoeFOH and we'll arrange dispatch of your prize. 

Thanks to all who participated. 

[GavLew79]

Wey hey! Thank you FOH! My first win! ?

[nKostyan]

Congrats!

[nKostyan]

Recently there was an Youtube channel interview with Dmitry Drutsa and he was asked a question as a representative of Habanos S. A. privy to some secrets. "Many people note that the blend of Cuban cigars has changed for the worse since 2005. What is the reason for this?" The answer was startling: it turns out that in the 1970s and 1980s Cuba had several epidemics of tobacco diseases. And this was very strange - the best premium tobacco plantations Pinar del Rio were sick, while the neighboring tobacco plantations did not suffer. The Cubans decided that the Americans were spraying tobacco disease spores from planes in order to deprive the state of its main source of currency. It was decided to create a hybrid resistant to diseases. The downside of the new hybrid varieties of tobacco was more weak flavouring properties.
However, at the beginning of the 200x, Cuba completely switched to a new type of tobacco. Thus, the Cuban paranoia "it's all the fault of the Americans" caused the transition to a weaker tobacco. At the same time, there is also a positive effect - the lighter flavor of Cuban cigars has become comfortable for a wider range of consumers and newcomers, and their popularity is growing every year. 
 

[maverickdrinker]

Interesting topic. So many great views. I think the blend changes and change in tobacco strain made cigars more approachable young. Only time will tell if there is any impact on long term Rare that you get that tannic harshness you get from young cigars in the past.

I do think that cigars from 2009 to 2015 have gone through a second fermentation if they have been in slumber. Definite flavour changes/emphasis on other flavours as they age. To me, this is a good thing as you won’t get bored.

I have noticed that a number of people use the word consistent flavours in their review in cigars from 2017 and 18. Hopefully, this is more descriptive than the truth. If so, my concern is the lost of nuance and subtlety in flavour change throughout the cigar. I haven’t tried anything yet from 2017 onwards so will have to correct that.

In general, I do think the blend/tobacco strain change is good as it opens the door to more new cigar smokers, due to approachability. Less explanation of why cigars are tannic and a more pleasing experience for new cigar smokers. It would be an interesting experiment if Habanos SA grew an older tobacco strain in parallel to the new tobacco strain and branded/offered as such. For example, Ramon Allones old strain and Ramon allones new strain. That would be fun to try side by side, from the same year to compare.


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