can someone explain brexit?


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This is such a complicated and contentious issue that I fear that its political nature could make it ultimately unsuitable for this forum. Already in this short thread I have seen comments that are fu

OK Ken here goes, after much soul searching and contemplation here is the explanation of the current state of brexit: "We’ve all been on a night out with a mate who says “It’s shit here - let’s go som

From an outsider's perspective, I always thought the reason for the exit was because a sovereign nation did not want other nations dictating its policy. The specific and exact root causes may be varie

13 minutes ago, MooseAMuffin said:

Rule 2: I am pretty sure its only US political talk that is banned.

Correct. US politics is banned because somebody always decides that they can't keep emotions out of it and remain civil. So far, the discussion on Brexit has remained on topic. If it goes off the rails, we will step in. And if we do, you will have your own FOHxit.

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3 minutes ago, MooseAMuffin said:

Being from the US and having no idea what's going on, what were the reasons for it and what were the reasons against it?

Why were these businessmen for the exit but then moved to avoid taxes? Was part of Brexit a tax cut that is no longer happening?

People like Boris Johnsson and Jacob Rees Mogg, come from worlds where they like to play hard and fast with the safety of the less wealthy/secure.  They want to turn the UK into some no regulation, tax heaven, where everything is privatised, and the top 5% can do as they please.   

Effectively they were selling a dream, that would only be a reality if you were already wealthy.  For everyone else it holds lots of risk, with no certain reward, and if we crash out, it will almost certainly be very painful, for those living in poverty.

I think the idea is the hard brexiteers wanted Norway + or, Canada+, or their own bespoke package .   They've meddled and been stubborn to a point that, it now looks as though we are going to crash out, with nothing.     The likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, are similutaniously telling everyone, everything will be fine, whilst moving their own wealth out of the UK.

Hopefully the breaking point has been reached.  Those who have disbanded from Corbyn's Labour today, have hopefully set a president, and Labour will return to the values it had pre-Tory Blair.  If a strong non-radical Labour government can be formed, then it is the end for Teresa.

As for Brexit, I suspect the can will be kicked down the road past March, and Brexit will be either passed in a different form by the following government, or canned. 

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26 minutes ago, nKostyan said:

Gentlemen, who is shortly and clearly can answer to Ken’s question? Half of you say: it's the stupid people votes, half of you blame the stupid officials. I don't believe it's really that all so stupid. As a rule, there are advantages and disadvantages in any issue. The disadvantages of Brexit are almost all listed, but there are advantages?

 

Shorty and clear, not sure I can do that :wacko:

I think any loss causes self reflection, hopefully the EU will realise it needs to open up in regards to transparency and corruption. Certainly the more undemocratic nature of things at commission/high levels needs addressing. Personally I hope it becomes less protectionist and things like dumping of over-subsidised food at rock bottom prices to Africa will stop. It can't ever be healthy for it to be cheaper for African nations to buy from the food mountains then set up their own agricultural systems. Forcing nations to stay underdeveloped so you can protect your own markets has a certain colonial tint to it. Do I think it will change anything? Nope, double down on the issues and build up walls around them. The conflict with several nations like Hungary and Italy in regard to bureaucratic oversight will worsen.

  For the UK, the return of faith in UK politicians should have been a marquee positive. Instead it's shown how broken the current system is and how woeful the current crop are. Hopefully this will create momentum to sort the mess out. I'm doubtful but I think out of the current chaos, something will happen. Not sure what but political upheaval is on the way, it seems to have begun today re 99's comments and labour splitting.

  Economically, it will be worse, there's no way around that. I don't know how politicians can say it will be as good or better with a straight face. But the argument never seemed to be about leaving for economic reasons, it was more about the EU moving towards closer political unity and integration. Why the economic argument had been taken up and ran with seems very strange. 

 There were people who voted leave because "foreigners". I don't know how to address their concerns, not sure they deserve it either. 

So we're probably left with:

-Out of a club that was going in a direction the UK wasn't happy with. 

-They'll be some kind of trade deal eventually which helps both sides

- The possibility of new markets via new trade deals? I'm not sure it's a positive, more of a drunken swivel

-UK politicians no longer having any excuse for their failings, political change has to come now to fix the broken system.

  Pretty thin, but I suppose how you measure it goes down to if you place your feet in the economic side or the more intangible recalibration of UK politics/sovereignty/ethos

There you go, short and clear :lookaround:

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20 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Correct. US politics is banned because somebody always decides that they can't keep emotions out of it and remain civil. So far, the discussion on Brexit has remained on topic. If it goes off the rails, we will step in. And if we do, you will have your own FOHxit.

@Fuzz

I think you all should have a "Purge Day" on US politics...similar to the movie. Allow me to set the rules ?

1 day a year, for 1 hour, preferably on a Friday night, 7pm EST start. A single thread is started, topic: "US POLITICS PURGE CELEBRATION".

Thread starts off civil and then 3 minutes later, all hell breaks loose. Name calling, smart ass remarks, uninformed opinions...its all allowed cuz it's the freaking "PURGE CELEBRATION"!!!

Of course, violence or threats of any kind are not allowed. But if I wanna say "I pity your children because you're a political jackass" and "no wonder can't please your wife". Its all good cuz...purge day. I mean, the amount of hilarity in the comment section would entertain anyone. Personally, i'm cracking a beer, smoking a cigar and refreshing the thread non stop...1 hour of pure anarchy. What could go wrong?? :yes:

Back to the rules: then 8pm EST comes around. The thread gets locked. Anyone who tries too continue the conversation anywhere in the forum, BOOM, banned.

Greatest idea ever or THE greatest idea ever? You decide.

 

P.S. this is not a literal comment, just a goofy thought come to mind

 

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You UK guys can gnash your teeth all you want, but I was Brexit’s first victim.

I was on Orkney the day of the Brexit vote and, thinking Remain would easily prevail and drive up the value of pounds against USD, I bought enough £ to fund no small amount of future whisky on future trips to the UK. Lost a fair amount of money on that one. Please consider donating to my GoFundMe account. #FirstVictim #NeverForget

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7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I have a good mate 90 minutes outside of London. 300 employees, successful manufacturing business. He started the business 12 years ago and exports throughout the EU as well a major player in his industry domestically. 

He has no idea what direction to go. How will his exports be treated. 

His bankers have no idea and so have taken to banking prime position in a crisis......foetal. Do nothing, toss platitudes. repeat. 

He knows a majority of his employees voted for an exit. Their choice and nothing wrong with that. There is a likelihood that they have voted themselves out of a job. They will blame the pollies. The pollies will disappear in the next election. A new group of muppets gets elected by muppets. repeat. 

Muppets!!! ?

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The leave campaign was able to pull together support and votes from a number of disparate sections of the population each with their own agendas and wishes, loosely based around a nominal leave position. For some it was ideological with a notion of Britain having more "control" over its destiny, some wanted the deregulation and low taxation status that countries like Singapore enjoy, some where xenophobic, some where also protesting at being ignored by politicians for years and wanted their voices hearing, some wanted £350 million a week to be paid to the national heath service (an implied promise from the Leave campaign put on the side of bus but subsequently backed away from the day after the vote as a matter of semantics), the list goes on and on. A particular favorite of mine is being told that "we don't want Brussels telling us what to do with their laws and rules". My answer to this is "please name one UK law that was forced on us by Brussels that you don't like and that could not have been vetoed by the British government? The silence is deafening. Now the vote has been taken to leave many of these groups want to know what happened to the Brexit they voted for? The Leavers cannot agree now what they want, with many different versions of leave still bandied around.

With respect to business I am going to give my opinion that more UK businesses where/are in favour of remaining in the EU than leaving, certainly that is the view of the CBI, the Institute of Directors and many other accredited bodies. The leave campaign insisted that setting up individual trade deals would be "the easiest thing in the World", now it is fairly well recognised that the UK will be worse off in the short term financially, a massive departure from the campaigned position, however many leavers now feel that this is a price worth paying. Many of these saying this have the financial security to not be worried about this, the normal people in the street not so much I guess. The bank of England has estimated the each British family is £900 per year worse off already and the IMF have forecast the final effect post Brexit will be a £6000/annum hit for reach family. The accuracy of these numbers can of course be questioned but regardless of the exact figure the basic trend is there to see.

There have also been a number of hugely ironic (bizarre/hypocritical) sides to this Brexit, not least high profile business owners who did campaign to leave subsequently relocating overseas after the vote and also some of the most infamous leavers (Eg. Farage, Lawson) making sure that there families have EU country passports. Sunderland was one of the highest leave turnouts in the country, a part of the Country that relies heavily on the huge Nissan factory for employment. A factory set up to produce cars to export tariff free to the EU in an area with one of the lowest immigration levels in the UK. Go figure...

The question was asked what are the advantages of leaving the EU, my honest answer is I genuinely do not know and if someone was able to point some out (tangible actual benefits not hypothetical could be's or maybe's ) then I am interested to hear.

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2 hours ago, nKostyan said:

Gentlemen, who is shortly and clearly can answer to Ken’s question? Half of you say: it's the stupid people votes, half of you blame the stupid officials. I don't believe it's really that all so stupid. As a rule, there are advantages and disadvantages in any issue. The disadvantages of Brexit are almost all listed, but there are advantages?

Absolutely, there are. As you mentioned in an earlier post there’s more here than first meets the eye. Seems from my vantage point that global axes are forming up again, and the UK’s leadership (elites, whatever you want to call them) are more comfortable cozying up to the US than to the EU (Germany). Historically speaking - can you blame them? Ultimately, I think there is a calculation being done. 1) I think that in deciding which center of gravity to draw nearer to, the US is perceived as having a lower cost with respect to the UK’s sovereignty. 2) In a future (the coming) large-scale conflict, the UK feels that close alliance with the US is still its best bet. Finally, I would argue that most of the Commonwealth nations are positioning themselves similarly. If you want to get an idea of what the 2 axes look like, look at who is backing Maduro vs Guaido.

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7 minutes ago, JeffreyLebowski said:

US is perceived as having a lower cost with respect to the UK’s sovereignty.

I think this may be true,  but I would suggest as bed fellows the vast proportion of people I know in the UK, are not exactly "over fond" of the US, compared with the shared history we have with the Europe.  Yes some of it, is not exactly ideal .   I think a great deal of it is brinkmanship is played out with regards to the shifting directions

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14 minutes ago, JeffreyLebowski said:

Absolutely, there are. As you mentioned in an earlier post there’s more here than first meets the eye. Seems from my vantage point that global axes are forming up again, and the UK’s leadership (elites, whatever you want to call them) are more comfortable cozying up to the US than to the EU (Germany). Historically speaking - can you blame them? Ultimately, I think there is a calculation being done. I think that in deciding which center of gravity to draw nearer to, the US is perceived as having a lower cost with respect to the UK’s sovereignty.

Almost certainly the vast majority of UK MP's are personally in favour of remaining in the EU as is the Bank of England, the major businesses are also so. I do not believe that it is realignment towards the US, indeed economically at the moment with things like a 25% tariff on British Steel into the US it feels unlikely.  Leave drew heavily on older and working class votes with relatively few high profile leadership figures pro leave. Whilst the UK is leaving the EU it remains very much part of Europe.

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12 minutes ago, 99call said:

I think this may be true,  but I would suggest as bed fellows the vast proportion of people I know in the UK, are not exactly "over fond" of the US, compared with the shared history we have with the Europe.  Yes some of it, is not exactly ideal .   I think a great deal of it is brinkmanship is played out with regards to the shifting directions

Ahh - now we’re getting somewhere interesting! I wonder about this all the time. You may be horrified to learn this, but as an American having just been in England and Europe, I found it striking how much more “English” I am in my culture, how much greater my affinity toward Englishness, than the any of the French-speaking, German-speaking, or Italian-speaking places I had been. Yes - I am an American identifying with English culture! England felt homey and natural to me. I also found much to love and relate to in the other places, but my cultural history is fundamentally English. I am sure it has much to do with my education, no doubt; but nonetheless, I believe those bonds run deep. My guess is that certain “old” ways are still true. The English speaking world may bear more natural affinity to each other, being that we share a common cultural root, than we do with the other cultural roots in Europe.

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10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Almost certainly the vast majority of UK MP's are personally in favour of remaining in the EU as is the Bank of England, the major businesses are also so. I do not believe that it is realignment towards the US, indeed economically at the moment with things like a 25% tariff on British Steel into the US it feels unlikely.  Leave drew heavily on older and working class votes with relatively few high profile leadership figures pro leave. Whilst the UK is leaving the EU it remains very much part of Europe.

Interesting points. I didn’t know the UK still bothered to produce steel...?

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7 minutes ago, JeffreyLebowski said:

Ahh - now we’re getting somewhere interesting! I wonder about this all the time. You may be horrified to learn this, but as an American having just been in England and Europe, I found it striking how much more “English” I am in my culture, how much greater my affinity toward Englishness, than the any of the French-speaking, German-speaking, or Italian-speaking places I had been. Yes - I am an American identifying with English culture! England felt homey and natural to me. I also found much to love and relate to in the other places, but my cultural history is fundamentally English. I am sure it has much to do with my education, no doubt; but nonetheless, I believe those bonds run deep. My guess is that certain “old” ways are still true. The English speaking world may bear more natural affinity to each other, being that we share a common cultural root, than we do with the other cultural roots in Europe.

I worked in the US for a couple of years, I love the Country and some of my best friends are Yanks, however personally Northern Europe (Particularly Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavian countries) feels culturally closer to the UK particularly if you can find a way past the language issues. I found in my time in the States that often the shared language (well almost shared ?) would sometimes mask some of the cultural differences.

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20 minutes ago, JeffreyLebowski said:

Interesting points. I didn’t know the UK still bothered to produce steel...?

  More then it did at the heights of the industrial revolution too, it's just highly automated now so has a tiny percentage of the workforce. It's of the high end type used in military/engineering stuff, no more cutlery or girders etc anymore.

  You hit on a few succinct points too. But I don't think it's so much picking Europe or the US. The UK will still be a part of Europe and be very closely aligned with. It's just leaving the EU.

  What you write about similarities does hit home, in very general terms there seems much in common between the US and UK in terms of culture and society. The same can be said of Canada, Oz etc too. Certainly more than between the UK and Europe that isn't Northern/Northwestern. But like you say, it's probably more down to historical/immigration links. I don't think it's a reason behind Brexit, I love the melting pot of Europe and I think most around the continent do too.

  It may play a part in the feelings of frustration with the EU in some parts of the UK. Just looking around European parliaments shows how vastly different the different nations politics are.

  I think there is always more in common between people, it's usually politics that hammer wedges between them sadly. That probably sums up the EU issues. The Common Market is/was a brilliant idea and the free market would have gently pushed all the nations together politically, the EU political movement came too quickly and pushed too hard, incompetently too. 

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48 minutes ago, JeffreyLebowski said:

Ahh - now we’re getting somewhere interesting! I wonder about this all the time. You may be horrified to learn this, but as an American having just been in England and Europe, I found it striking how much more “English” I am in my culture, how much greater my affinity toward Englishness, than the any of the French-speaking, German-speaking, or Italian-speaking places I had been. Yes - I am an American identifying with English culture! England felt homey and natural to me. I also found much to love and relate to in the other places, but my cultural history is fundamentally English. I am sure it has much to do with my education, no doubt; but nonetheless, I believe those bonds run deep. My guess is that certain “old” ways are still true. The English speaking world may bear more natural affinity to each other, being that we share a common cultural root, than we do with the other cultural roots in Europe.

In many ways the UK is void of any straight forward sense of patriotism, that would be familiar to countries like China, Russia, or the US.   Once a country becomes so old, the sense of who a country belongs too, becomes flux and constantly evolving.  I think for us to get along with another country, a sense of self deprecation is a must

In terms of Britishness I would describe the  general man or woman to be.  Dark humoured, pessimistic, pale, open to criticism, capable of as many of one moment of brilliance every two years, with underperformance making up the rest of the time,  powered by tea, accepting, sly as foxes.    When travelling the world, i've found most in common with Japanese, although their work ethic, is vastly superior.

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24 minutes ago, 99call said:

In many ways the UK is void of any straight forward sense of patriotism, that would be familiar to countries like China, Russia, or the US.   Once a country becomes so old, the sense of who a country belongs too, becomes flux and constantly evolving.  I think for us to get along with another country, a sense of self deprecation is a must

In terms of Britishness I would describe the  general man or woman to be.  Dark humoured, pessimistic, pale, open to criticism, capable of as many of one moment of brilliance every two years, with underperformance making up the rest of the time,  powered by tea, accepting, sly as foxes.    When travelling the world, i've found most in common with Japanese, although their work ethic, is vastly superior.

I suspect the US has a lot of patriotic flag waving for the same reason Switzerland does. We are both old republics that needed the patriotism and nationalism to draw very different groups of people together and to keep us from abandoning/killing each other. 

A lot of people are attacking the Brexiteers because leaving the EU is reckless and will have unintended consequences. What they often don’t admit is that the same can be said for joining the EU in the first place. The EU is still an experiment, and I suspect they will have to instill a lot of the same jingoistic EU pride into its people if it’s going to work.

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6 hours ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Seems like a pretty politically charged thread, and I'm surprised it has lasted this long. Seems there is a certain viewpoint that is allowed, just like most other places while the opposing view, if stated would be completely wiped out, suspended, etc. Just calling what I see. 

what is allowed is discussion and debate. both sides of the fence. 

Some simply don't possess the skills. 

 

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Thatcher would never have signed the Maastricht Treaty.

It basically boils down to us being British more than being European. We never at any point voted to join a bureaucratic federalist EU superstate. And that is what they are trying to sneak in through the back door.

We voted for a common market, and I among many others would like to stay in the common market. At no point did the population of the UK vote to be a vassal state of an enlarged EU.

It is not something any of us really want and it is not something we have even been asked to vote on.

Those that voted to remain did so mainly for the perks, free travel and ability to work around the EU and because they are scared of economic recession.

Cant put a price on freedom and hope though.

 

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3 hours ago, Webbo said:

Almost certainly the vast majority of UK MP's are personally in favour of remaining in the EU as is the Bank of England, the major businesses are also so. I do not believe that it is realignment towards the US, indeed economically at the moment with things like a 25% tariff on British Steel into the US it feels unlikely.  Leave drew heavily on older and working class votes with relatively few high profile leadership figures pro leave. Whilst the UK is leaving the EU it remains very much part of Europe.

Most big business are in favour of remaining in the EU. Common regulations across a large geographic area makes their life easy. Also the ever increasing amount of regulations bars entry to smaller firms and limits their competition.

Most small to medium business owners I speak to, typically those with a lot on the line in the event of a downturn are in favour of leaving.

This is Britains time to shine, we can set the rules, sign trade agreements and do what we are best at - business with the vast majority of the world that is English speaking as we have at one point or another colonised or subjugated them.

It wont be easy. But who likes it easy?

Someone one said;

The British nation is unique in this respect: they are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst.

And we do, we revel in it.

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1 hour ago, Ritch said:

Someone one said;

The British nation is unique in this respect: they are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst.

And we do, we revel in it.

Whilst sitting in a bathtub of hot Bovril? :P

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