Is the Trinidad blend more opulent than Cohiba?

[canadianbeaver]

  On 5/9/2018 at 3:14 PM, 99call said:

Cheers for the response CB, 

That was sort of the question is a way. If you had Trinidad in every vitola that you could have Cohiba in.  Which marca would you consider to be best value for money?

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I do not consider Cuban cigars in terms of value for the money, brother. 

I just love smoking and collecting them.

Two thirds of my collection is for investment by the way.

CB

[dominattorney]

  On 5/9/2018 at 4:16 PM, Corylax18 said:

If that's the question, Neither.

I smoke a lot of Trinidad and almost no Cohiba. But in either case I can not argue that either "Marca's" backstory and fancier packaging justifies the sky high prices compared to similar vitolas in other Marcas. I only buy my Trinidads in quantity on the island, and I probably wouldn't smoke many/any if I didn't have that option. I can't personally justify paying $250 for 24 PCs or $400-500 for 24 Fundys. Especially when there are so many other great options that cost far less. I can justify paying $158 for those PCs though, or $275 for the Fundys, especially when the $250 I saved pays for the flight to pick them up.

To answer the question as originally posed, no I don't think Trinidad is currently getting any more "love" than Cohiba regarding the Tobacco selection or blending. But, if given the choice between a Trinidad or Cohiba, my personal preference leans towards Trinidad.

Any comparisons between the early, diplomatic blends of each Marca and the current Marcas is really...... pointless. There has been far more change than constant in the Cuban cigar world in the last 50 years for those comparisons to mean much.    

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Interesting take. 

[NSXCIGAR]

I'm not sure there's any difference in comparing Trini and Cohiba than there is comparing any other two marcas. They're totally different and share little in common IMHO. I honestly don't see Trinidad as a "superior" marca and I rarely see Cohiba as one, but I will say Cohiba at its best is a very, very good cigar that has undeniable appeal--maybe Cuba's best these days. So I think the case can be made that the raw materials and processing of Cohiba could arguably make it a "superior" cigar however I like to classify it as simply "different". 

I don't think Trini has anything on any other marca. I do personally like the blend but I very rarely like to pay the premium for them. You can find some good deals on Reyes and I wouldn't hesitate to buy Fundys in Cuba for $262. But worldwide prices for Fundys, Coloniales and Vigia are stupid for what you get. When put up against a cigar like the Connie A, Cuaba Distinguidos or RA Superiores they show their equality and the poor value that they are. 

As far as class, I would submit cigars like the Connie A, PSE2 and QdO Coronas as just as classy as anything Trini puts forward. 

[Fugu]

  On 5/9/2018 at 11:21 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

You can find some good deals on Reyes

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True, and in addition, I find the Reyes to be a slow smoker due to their usually nice, compact rolling. So they still provide a fairly good value to me, even when comparing to cigars of similar format (Minutos, Franciscanos, etc.)

[retrofail]

Judging by how fast anything Trini disappears on 24:24, I'd say a lot of people here actually agree with you. Wish I could provide more input, but I'm never fast enough on the draw to experience much of the marca. 

[NSXCIGAR]

  On 5/10/2018 at 2:17 AM, retrofail said:

Judging by how fast anything Trini disappears on 24:24, I'd say a lot of people here actually agree with you. Wish I could provide more input, but I'm never fast enough on the draw to experience much of the marca. 

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It's a popular blend and people are evidently willing to pay for that. Cohiba goes fast too.  I personally am more a Trini fan than Cohiba in general but not having a favorite cigar(s) since the late 90s I like to smoke what's smoking well, be it Trini, Punch, Boli etc. As I've said in the past, any cigar in any marca could be the best cigar coming out of Cuba on any given day. As I said, I do like the Trini blend but I choose to spend my coin on, among others, Connie A, Connie 1, Cuaba Distinguidos, RASCC, RAS, RG Perlas and Punch Punch these days as I think they all are better than any Trini or Cohiba right now, although I will dip into the Reyes from time to time as I believe them to be a good value unlike the other Trinis.

[Lotusguy]

I can’t take anyone that says “could of” on a regular basis very seriously

[El Presidente]

  On 5/9/2018 at 8:52 AM, 99call said:

In the middle of smoking a Trinidad Coloniales, and it just screams class. Rich buttery madeira cake, vanilla, white wood, a touch of salt, oodles of cream. I have had huge success with Trinidad, and always respected it as being HSA's 'real' premo line. Over the years, I've probably only smoked about 25 Cohibas all from different boxes/different ages, and i've always been massively underwhelmed. Ultimately I just find that whole Hay&Honey thing to be over refined, and a bit characterless. 

My question is this, If the Trinidad blend was given the vitola line of Cohiba, money etc, would it read better as the most well balanced luxurious blend/brand?

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There are tens and tens of thousands of Cohiba fanatics. Most of them love the blend in one or more of the line. 

While the "hay and honey" thing might not "float your boat"....it supercharges theirs.

Palate physiology differs in person to person.  When smoking cigars with a mate you may have a similar experience but it is impossible to have an identical one.  I am always amused when one determines their own experience to be the same as others. 

I love Trinidad and it isn't a marketing fail. It is close however. 

If Trinidad was a Monte price-point then I  think it would gain some traction. It isn't. It is rolled in a poorly performing factory with at times laughable quality and then you lump it with a hefty price point and flick it out to the market with a "Da Daaaa  "    The result  .  It  was going fine when it was rolled at El Laguito prior 2005.  Then the crap started. 

 

In a world where marketing is illegal (EU/Asia) it is nigh impossible to launch a premium brand to compete with Cohiba.  Cohiba has had (and will always have) the benefit of market positioning as a result of copious amount of marketing events and dolllar's that can't/couldn't be replicated with Trinidad. It is also a very good Marque. 

Trinidad is a very good horse trained badly (factory) and saddled with a weight handicap (pricing) that it finds difficult to carry. 

The only reason it sells at all is because it is a very good cigar. That may not save it in its current guise. 

Current Fundadores are fantastic and one of my go to cigars. 

 

[robertsccr5]

For what it's worth, I've only been smoking CC for about 1.5 years...my first boxes of Cohiba Siglo I and Trinidad Reyes (24:24 purchases) came together a month ago. The first Cohiba a few nights ago was terrible. In flavor and burn. Tried another last night and it was a tad better. Trying the Trinidad now and it blows the Cohibas out of the water. Much better construction, burn, and has a crazy white pepper spice to it. I've found my new morning cigar with coffee.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[99call]

  On 5/9/2018 at 11:21 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not sure there's any difference in comparing Trini and Cohiba than there is comparing any other two marcas. They're totally different and share little in common IMHO. I honestly don't see Trinidad as a "superior" marca and I rarely see Cohiba as one, but I will say Cohiba at its best is a very, very good cigar that has undeniable appeal--maybe Cuba's best these days. So I think the case can be made that the raw materials and processing of Cohiba could arguably make it a "superior" cigar however I like to classify it as simply "different". 

I don't think Trini has anything on any other marca. I do personally like the blend but I very rarely like to pay the premium for them. You can find some good deals on Reyes and I wouldn't hesitate to buy Fundys in Cuba for $262. But worldwide prices for Fundys, Coloniales and Vigia are stupid for what you get. When put up against a cigar like the Connie A, Cuaba Distinguidos or RA Superiores they show their equality and the poor value that they are. 

As far as class, I would submit cigars like the Connie A, PSE2 and QdO Coronas as just as classy as anything Trini puts forward. 

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Good points well made. Personally, I also don't think either Cohiba or Trinidad are worth the premo price tag. But when both are being pushed by HSA as such, my argument was to suggest that Trinidad (to me) has the richer, more satisfying blend, and one that I would associate more with a luxury product, where as Cohiba always appears very thin and watery too me. 

It's great that you brought up QdO. personally I love that blend, but it is light, and has for the longest time been seen as an also ran (by a great deal of the buying public). People casually refer to it as some sort of breakfast filler smoke, that wont leave you feeling sated. I don't get that from QdO, but I do from Cohiba. to me it's blend lacks balance and depth, and thats where i'm left a bit puzzled. 

Wether it be Kobe Beef, Bottarga, Caviar, Sea Urchin, Foie gras, truffles etc etc  They all have refinement and velvety smoothness, but they also have that x-factor of a bit of umami funk to them.  It's the anchor within the flavour profile which makes it (for some unknown reason) perfect.  In a round about way, I was suggesting Trinidad has that bit of unusual bite in it's blend, where as a don't think Cohiba does. 

[99call]

  On 5/10/2018 at 5:19 AM, El Presidente said:

While the "hay and honey" thing might not "float your boat"....it supercharges theirs.

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It wasn't to say "hay and honey" is bad, more to suggest that most things we often find irresistibly alluring in life, oddly have a little bit of rotten in them. Like incredibly expensive cologne, may have ambergris (whale vomit) or dehydrated glands of a musk deer in it. Quite often with things consumers go nuts over in the luxury product market, they have so edge to them that isn't 'sweetness and light'. In a round about way I suggesting that (of course) there is nothing wrong with legions of people craving Cohiba, but I find it unusual as I see it as lacking that perfect imperfection. that little something that it awry in someones face, that stops them being a very pretty girl, and turns them into the women you want to marry.......................... with agreed psychological assessment, of course!

[El Hoze]

I have never felt a connection between Trinidads and Cohibas. I have a couple good boxes of Fundies that I smoke from time to time but am just not a Trini guy. I own and smoke a ton of Cohiba. Pretty sure I own at least one box of every Cohiba vitola, including the last two ELs, and am deep on many of them. (*Lied, have never tried a Medio Siglo. Don’t like the size.) 

Interestingly enough I just had a minor surgery so I went a whole week without drinking and smoking. That was only slightly harder than Ironman. I had my “first” beer (a Stella) and cigar (an El Laguito 2014 Robusto from a primo box) last night and I thought the beer tasted too strong and the cigar tasted kind of “meh”. Not only is everyone’s palate  different, it can change too. In a few days I’ll be back to normal. 

[Fugu]

  On 5/10/2018 at 5:19 AM, El Presidente said:

It is rolled in a poorly performing factory with at times laughable quality and then you lump it with a hefty price point and flick it out to the market with a "Da Daaaa  "    The result  .  It  was going fine when it was rolled at El Laguito prior 2005.  Then the crap started. 

.....

Trinidad is a very good horse trained badly (factory) and saddled with a weight handicap (pricing) that it finds difficult to carry. 

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Perhaps a bit off the topic's core, but just out of interest - I am always surprised to hear your quality criticism for Trinidad, Rob. Is it really that bad from your perspective? Granted, Trinidad had been in a low for a couple of years, quality-wise. But I truly haven't had a SINGLE poorly made Reyes or Coloniales in a while (at least since 2015). Francisco Donatien might not be distinguished by the brightest reputation, I suspect perhaps that's to a part due to being the mother factory of Vegueros. But the rolling quality of sticks, from what I have seen (also holding for Vegueros by the way) has been fine mostly. At least not lower than for any other factory out there. I sure can't compete with the volumes you are looking at, but I cannot relate at all to the often heard claims of poorly made Trinidads, not anymore.

On the other hand, my beloved Boli CJs are often seeing up to 15-20 percent duds (mostly underfills) in the box - mind you, all Partagas production...., while at the same time, MDO4 is always rolled to high standards. So, it often seems to not just depend on the factory but on the particular line of rollers doing certain vitolas. As for Trini these days, I really can't complain.

[fitzy]

I’ve only smoked a handful of each and so far prefer Trinidad.

[FidelCashflow]

This might be an ignorant question, so please forgive me in advance if so... since the nationalization of the industry and the formation of Cubatabaco and HSA, my understanding is that any marca can be rolled in any factory on any given day. Is there any real difference between a given vitola/blend from one marca to another anymore?

[ayepatz]

  On 5/10/2018 at 8:58 PM, FidelCashflow said:

This might be an ignorant question, so please forgive me in advance if so... since the nationalization of the industry and the formation of Cubatabaco and HSA, my understanding is that any marca can be rolled in any factory on any given day. Is there any real difference between a given vitola/blend from one marca to another anymore?

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It’s a popular conspiracy theory that gets trotted out once in a while.

My riposte would be to say smoke two Party E2s, one rolled in El Laguito and one not. You’ll soon have your answer. ?

If a single cigar can differ that much...

[FidelCashflow]

I don't believe I've had the pleasure of an El Laguito box yet... just biding my time.

[ayepatz]

  On 5/10/2018 at 9:04 PM, FidelCashflow said:

I don't believe I've had the pleasure of an El Laguito box yet... just biding my time.

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Keep an eye open for fiver boxes. I’ve seen quite a few AMO and UAO coded ones around recently.

edit - El Pres had some up on 24:24 a wee while back. So they do crop up.

[Danimalia]

Interesting question. Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with both brands, recently, I prefer Trinidad. Must do more research.

[cookj1]

  On 5/9/2018 at 11:21 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

As far as class, I would submit cigars like the Connie A, PSE2 and QdO Coronas as just as classy as anything Trini puts forward. 

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Really?  I don’t question your opinion, whatsoever.  I just don’t see that at all.

[El Presidente]

  On 5/10/2018 at 11:54 AM, Fugu said:

Perhaps a bit off the topic's core, but just out of interest - I am always surprised to hear your quality criticism for Trinidad, Rob. Is it really that bad from your perspective? Granted, Trinidad had been in a low for a couple of years, quality-wise. But I truly haven't had a SINGLE poorly made Reyes or Coloniales in a while (at least since 2015). Francisco Donatien might not be distinguished by the brightest reputation, I suspect perhaps that's to a part due to being the mother factory of Vegueros. But the rolling quality of sticks, from what I have seen (also holding for Vegueros by the way) has been fine mostly. At least not lower than for any other factory out there. I sure can't compete with the volumes you are looking at, but I cannot relate at all to the often heard claims of poorly made Trinidads, not anymore.

On the other hand, my beloved Boli CJs are often seeing up to 15-20 percent duds (mostly underfills) in the box - mind you, all Partagas production...., while at the same time, MDO4 is always rolled to high standards. So, it often seems to not just depend on the factory but on the particular line of rollers doing certain vitolas. As for Trini these days, I really can't complain.

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I would go through and inspect maybe 2000 boxes of Trinidad a year and there has been an uptick in quality over the past 12 months (I think I have noted that in the reports). 

It may be just me but I hold a Trinidad Reyes to a higher standard than that of a Boli Corona Junior.  

At times, Francisco Donatien produces cigars that are nothing more than a disgrace. Way too frequently, the quality of wrapper I have seen utilised on VR/SP/Trinidad can be nothing short of third rate. Every factory can produce duds, but FD produced more duds than any other. 

They can also produce runs of excellent cigars. Yet, from my observations their failure rate is the highest of any factory. 

Again, there has been a dramatic improvement in the past year.  There is nothing here that cannot be fixed. A good manager who changes the culture and maybe that is occuring. 

My criticism of Trinidad is that for the price point I expect better.  If HSA wishes to pitch it as a high end cigar then it needs to do better in construction consistency. 

MDO4 is La Corona and if Trinidad were rolled at La Corona it would have twice the sales and two more lines. 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

  On 5/10/2018 at 10:22 PM, cookj1 said:

Really?  I don’t question your opinion, whatsoever.  I just don’t see that at all.

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All three of those cigars I mentioned utilize top raw materials, generally show high quality and consistency and are what I would call very refined in strength and defined in flavor--all what I would call classy. Good Cohibas and yes, good Trinis can be classy but my point was that there's nothing Trini has that many other cigars don't, taking one's personal blend preferences out of the equation.

I would probably pick a Trini over the PSE2 or QdO Coronas as I prefer the Trini blend but certainly the Connie A is a tough act for any cigar to follow except maybe a SW although the SW gets a bit more in-your-face as it evolves. 

[NSXCIGAR]

  On 5/10/2018 at 8:58 PM, FidelCashflow said:

any marca can be rolled in any factory on any given day.

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Aside from Cohiba Lanceros all of which are rolled at EL, this is true for the most part. And it's also true that since the early 2000s Cubatabaco has done a good job of standardizing quality among all Cuban factories. But EL is a special factory who's rollers generally will have a higher skill level and more experience, and from what I've heard better raw materials do make their way to EL more often than the other factories. 

The only other factory I look for is La Corona as they have just proven themselves over the last 5-7 years to be impressively consistent.

[cookj1]

  On 5/11/2018 at 3:45 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

my point was that there's nothing Trini has that many other cigars don't, 

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Tobacco from the Vuelta Abajo.

[El Presidente]

  On 5/10/2018 at 8:58 PM, FidelCashflow said:

any marca can be rolled in any factory on any given day

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Potentially they can. In reality many are not. 

Take Dip 2. I haven't seen one rolled outside of La Corona since 2016 (to my recollection). Cuaba same. Trinidad is FD since 2004/5.  There are plenty of other examples. However there are many cigars rolled in numerous factories