The glory that is the British & Irish Lions!....Bring on the All Blacks!

[Ken Gargett]

2 hours ago, gweilgi said:

Foley may not be the best kicker around, but he is a very useful flyhalf.  Saving grace and all that.

As for kicking, it remains an enduring mystery to me why Australian teams a,) do not seem to be able to kick; and b,) why they still insist on box-kicking when there is no need whatsoever.  Talent may be involved, of course, but kicking can be learned.  It can be practised.  Johnny Wilkinson may have had the talent, but he did not sit there waiting for the astounding skill to settle on him like divine manna from heaven.  

 

Money does play a role there ... not only for League but also AFL.

 

Sledging Ella?  Them's fighting words....

 

foley is competent but hardly consistent and his ground kicking is average at best. a concern for a fly half. we've had them in the past - i mentioned lynagh and ella. as ground kickers, they were the equal of anything i've seen in decades. but foley is hardly the standard we should be seeking. do you think that the lions, all blacks, poms, south africans et al would be happy if foley was their first choice fly half? can't think of a nz super rugby team who would be happy but he is the best we have.

plenty of money around rugby - they just use it badly. john's earlier post was very revealing. the situation is not good.

not sledging ella at all. he was a very good fly half but both lynagh and mclean were more complete players and i'd take them ahead of ella any day of the week. the problem is that a few ella sycophants have declared that he walked on water and death to any contrary view. and ella himself has an ego the size of ayer's rock. read anything the bloke writes, and i have long given up doing so, and you could be forgiven for thinking that not only was ella some sort of divinity but that he was the greatest player to ever step onto a field and that he also invented the game. he clearly believes so.

i remember a quote from andrew slack - captain of the wallabies for their first ever grand slam tour and a man who played with and against both players, has coached in super rugby and has made a living as a rugby commentator for decades (so a reasonable authority, one would hope) - "anyone who thinks ella was a better fly half than paul mclean either never saw mclean play or doesn't understand rugby". i'm happy to defer to that.

 

 

[99call]

It's a sad state of affairs then rugby isn't really being taught at school anymore. It's quickly becoming the second sport in the Wales, something that I thought would never happen. 

It's quite interesting to see the habits of parents in Manchester. There is a huge percentage of parents that try and use their kids as a cash cow. i.e put a lot of time and effort into seeing if little timmy can get picked up by Manchester United/City's academy. This is pretty sick to witness as it's not in the childs best interest. Especially then they don't make the cut, the parents basically cut their funding.

I also wonder how comfortable people feel schooling rugby with the hysteria around child abuse these days. My parents had no issue with placing me in the resposibility of another adult, and even give them carte blanch to give me a clip round the ear if I was being a sh*t.  When I was a kid, rugby was pretty intense, and I would say much of it has been sanctioned out of schooling due to the all powerful health and safety gods. I count those times as being very formative, as often disapline from a rugby coach could be a great deal more honest and useful, than what you might get at home. 

Rugby here is very quickly reverting back to an elitist game thats only played on the hollowed fields of colleges and academies, but more importantly kids must be taught at a young age the basic skills of rugby, and the concept of pitching in for your teammate even if it means a boot in the face. 

I also think a broad early sporting life is very important, too much emphasis is placed on focusing on one sport.   Johnny Sexton and Conor O'shea have both played Gaelic games at a young age, and you can see the finesse in their game, kicking a ball looks as natural as passing to them, and it's been born out of learning other skill in different games

[gweilgi]

22 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

foley is competent but hardly consistent and his ground kicking is average at best. a concern for a fly half. we've had them in the past - i mentioned lynagh and ella. as ground kickers, they were the equal of anything i've seen in decades. but foley is hardly the standard we should be seeking. do you think that the lions, all blacks, poms, south africans et al would be happy if foley was their first choice fly half? can't think of a nz super rugby team who would be happy but he is the best we have.

Given their current performance, I rather think that the SAFAs would welcome Foley with open arms...

We should also bear in mind that players like Dan Carter or Johnny Wilkinson only come around once in a generation, if that.  This is why I think that a really good kicker is so important ...

 

22 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

plenty of money around rugby - they just use it badly. john's earlier post was very revealing. the situation is not good.

not sledging ella at all. he was a very good fly half but both lynagh and mclean were more complete players and i'd take them ahead of ella any day of the week. the problem is that a few ella sycophants have declared that he walked on water and death to any contrary view. and ella himself has an ego the size of ayer's rock. read anything the bloke writes, and i have long given up doing so, and you could be forgiven for thinking that not only was ella some sort of divinity but that he was the greatest player to ever step onto a field and that he also invented the game. he clearly believes so.

i remember a quote from andrew slack - captain of the wallabies for their first ever grand slam tour and a man who played with and against both players, has coached in super rugby and has made a living as a rugby commentator for decades (so a reasonable authority, one would hope) - "anyone who thinks ella was a better fly half than paul mclean either never saw mclean play or doesn't understand rugby". i'm happy to defer to that.

Either way, we will never really know.  Retiring at 25 was possibly the best Rugby move Ella ever made.  Being a tad too young and from the wrong end of the world to boot to have seen Ella play in person, I had to make do with recordings, and what I saw was pure magic.  Beautiful passing, sticky hands and situational awareness like no other ... but then, that's the beauty of sports, isn't it?  We can spend the next ten years happily discussing this without ever agreeing and without ever running out of opinion... 

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

Given their current performance, I rather think that the SAFAs would welcome Foley with open arms...

We should also bear in mind that players like Dan Carter or Johnny Wilkinson only come around once in a generation, if that.  This is why I think that a really good kicker is so important ...

 

Either way, we will never really know.  Retiring at 25 was possibly the best Rugby move Ella ever made.  Being a tad too young and from the wrong end of the world to boot to have seen Ella play in person, I had to make do with recordings, and what I saw was pure magic.  Beautiful passing, sticky hands and situational awareness like no other ... but then, that's the beauty of sports, isn't it?  We can spend the next ten years happily discussing this without ever agreeing and without ever running out of opinion... 

indeed, and if only we could argue about today's players with the same reverence.

i would say that having seen a lot of all three - i remember ducking out of work to go down to the randwick oval to see ella's last ever game which i think was against bath and also heading to the uni fields in brizzy to see lynagh's first club game for university as a 17 year old as everyone was raving about his potential, and so many more games - that i'm not sure i agree re the 'never really know' argument, but i understand your point.

worth considering that the recordings might tend to highlight his better moments, as they would for any player. i can assume you saw very little of mclean as well? people have forgotten how brilliant he was. the south used to cry out for ella for his ball running skills but it was part of mclean's game that was superb. during his time in the wallabies, the only player faster was brendan moon and that was only after 20 metres. both players, all three, had superb hands. mclean was so elegant as a player (not unlike darren lockyer, if you saw him play league - a future immortal).

among many great memories, i will go to my grave remembering a field goal he scored the day qld beat a full strength all blacks side. early second half, 3-3 at that stage, a penalty each, hauser (the half) flung a poor pass out to him when we were some 30 yards from their line. mclean swivelled on one foot, the full 360, picking the ball with just one hand up from an inch or so above ground behind him as he came around and was facing away from the posts. he kept swivelling and as he came back around simply dropped the ball and slotted it. a thing of great beauty. the only other score that day was a monster roger gould field goal - he took the ball on the sideline on the ten yard line on the wrong side of half way. two steps and bang and it cleared the posts by many metres. he could kick a ball further than anyone i've ever seen (not always quite as accurate though). no tries but one hell of a game.

i'd argue mclean was all those things you say about ella, which ella certainly was, and even more. ella was undoubtedly those things, no argument, especially when playing with his brothers (who largely struggled at the very top level otherwise) but he lacked the defensive awareness. i remember a close game v the kiwis (83, i think) when we just lost. ella kicked a lot of penalty goals, though not a great kicker by any means, and the southern sycophants raved about his performance. had they bothered to look, he was caught out horribly twice by his direct opponent who went through for two tries. and it cost us the game.

no question, ella was a superb player but i will never doubt that both lynagh and mclean were better. for me, carter is probably the best fly half i've ever seen (and you have no idea how much it hurts me to say that about a kiwi). we could then argue mclean, lynagh, johnny, possibly hugo porta. and no doubt there are other contenders from earlier eras.

and of course, both those two were brilliant goalkickers and i agree with you. a really good kicker should be the first bloke picked - something we have long forgotten. it is another reason why both of those guys should make any team ahead of ella.

the other point i'd make, re not knowing, is that i have heard ella speak on several occasions (i much prefer that to his writing) and he made it clear that he got out then because he had had enough. lost the interest. and we all know that as soon as a player, in any sport at the top level, loses the drive, his standards will nose dive. i would say good on him for stepping away at his peak, or thereabouts, and not struggling on, like so many do. but given that knowledge from ella himself, we were never going to see anything better, or probably the same quality ever again.

[99call]

Looks like its warming up to be the clash of styles many were all hoping for. I realise some die hard fanatics of running rugby will say its an abomination, but I must say, seeing the Lions essentially crush the NZ Maori, effectively just switch their lights off, was pretty stunning. 

This is no way adds up to standing a chance against the AB's, as they will have a great deal more class and composure, but lets hope it creates a great sporting series. 

Something that struck me in watching the suffercating rugby the lions created was that it's all built around the set piece, and although many would say the Blacks don't need any set piece dominance, they will just live off kick ball, effectively Johnny Sexton or Owen Farrell can just touch find up the park, until they force either a kicking or line out error.     I wonder if the AB's will start to look like Fiji, very impressive but ultimately lose?    I still think the AB's will win 2-1, but you will be able to hear a pin drop in that stadium is the Lions are able to stifle the AB's in a similar fashion.

[99call]

GUTTED!!!!!!

Frustrating that the Lions had the most chances, but yet once again, just couldn't finish. The main sore point however is that I cant believe Gatland didn't see the NZ game plan of running the tight five up the 9 channel. Ultimately NZ are an ego led team, if you say your going to shunt their forward pack, they will react to that, and try and (in this case succeed) in ramming it down your throat. The lion's should of seen this coming

If the Lions can front up, and win the contact, they stand a chance in the second test, if they don't then there's no point in turning up

[Ken Gargett]

24 minutes ago, 99call said:

GUTTED!!!!!!

Frustrating that the Lions had the most chances, but yet once again, just couldn't finish. The main sore point however is that I cant believe Gatland didn't see the NZ game plan of running the tight five up the 9 channel. Ultimately NZ are an ego led team, if you say your going to shunt their forward pack, they will react to that, and try and (in this case succeed) in ramming it down your throat. The lion's should of seen this coming

If the Lions can front up, and win the contact, they stand a chance in the second test, if they don't then there's no point in turning up

thought it the best rugby i've seen in a couple of years and can't wait to go over for the the 2nd test. especially that first half. cracking game.

sure, lions had chances but - and i say this as someone supporting neither of them - one really felt that nz had this under control for the vast majority of the game.

but i most strenuously (and again, for me to say anything positive about the all black will give me sleepless nights) disagree about them being an ego led team. sure, they have some big egos on that team but if you think you can beat them that way, you may as well stay in the dressing room (last team i saw fall for something like that was in the 91 cup final when the poms were conned into trying to learn how to be an attacking team in a week). they are simply the best rugby team on the planet (excuse me while i go and take a shower) and i doubt that a tour by a rest of the world team would beat them in a three test series. they are first and foremost a team. they play for each other. they have a plan and they execute it brilliantly and they can react to make any necessary changes.

if the lions want to win this, they are going to have to be really really thoughtful and absolutely everything must work.

and why would you take teo off at that stage? that was really dumb. he was close to the lions best.

it did cross my mind that there were three broncos/qld state of origin players running around - teo plus folau and hunt (who i thought were probably the two best aussies, though it was hardly a stellar field from which to choose - foley was truly awful) - who'd be really useful at the moment.

[99call]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

thought it the best rugby i've seen in a couple of years and can't wait to go over for the the 2nd test. especially that first half. cracking game.

sure, lions had chances but - and i say this as someone supporting neither of them - one really felt that nz had this under control for the vast majority of the game.

but i most strenuously (and again, for me to say anything positive about the all black will give me sleepless nights) disagree about them being an ego led team. sure, they have some big egos on that team but if you think you can beat them that way, you may as well stay in the dressing room (last team i saw fall for something like that was in the 91 cup final when the poms were conned into trying to learn how to be an attacking team in a week). they are simply the best rugby team on the planet (excuse me while i go and take a shower) and i doubt that a tour by a rest of the world team would beat them in a three test series. they are first and foremost a team. they play for each other. they have a plan and they execute it brilliantly and they can react to make any necessary changes.

if the lions want to win this, they are going to have to be really really thoughtful and absolutely everything must work.

and why would you take teo off at that stage? that was really dumb. he was close to the lions best.

it did cross my mind that there were three broncos/qld state of origin players running around - teo plus folau and hunt (who i thought were probably the two best aussies, though it was hardly a stellar field from which to choose - foley was truly awful) - who'd be really useful at the moment.

By ego led team, I don't mean trying to conn anyone into anything. Essentially every single time the northern hemisphere has intimated they will give the AB's a nudge in the forwards, they've made a concerted effort to try and blow us away. In affect all I was saying was, I can't believe, yet again the Lions wern't switched on for the pick and go.

I agree the Lions basically have to do absolutely everything right for the next 140mins in order to win, anything less will be failure for sure.  Teo was class, but I'm also glad Davies showed his deception nicely.  He gets slated mercilessly in the NH, because he 'looks slow' yet his ability to ghost through gaps is pretty impressive. 

As for Aussie v Italy, I saw a bit off it, I couldn't get over the Aussy commentary team were creaming their pants scoring tries over Italy!.   This is truly a sign of the times. I do hope the green and gold ressurect their fortunes, as I do the Saffers, the world is just no fun without you. 

Ken, with regard to your sins of NZ appreciation, it's just that you suffer, and I should imagine your in a dark pit somewhere smoking a Monte C and surrounded by SLRDC's cracked in half. 

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, 99call said:

By ego led team, I don't mean trying to conn anyone into anything. Essentially every single time the northern hemisphere has intimated they will give the AB's a nudge in the forwards, they've made a concerted effort to try and blow us away. In affect all I was saying was, I can't believe, yet again the Lions wern't switched on for the pick and go.

I agree the Lions basically have to do absolutely everything right for the next 140mins in order to win, anything less will be failure for sure.  Teo was class, but I'm also glad Davies showed his deception nicely.  He gets slated mercilessly in the NH, because he 'looks slow' yet his ability to ghost through gaps is pretty impressive. 

As for Aussie v Italy, I saw a bit off it, I couldn't get over the Aussy commentary team were creaming their pants scoring tries over Italy!.   This is truly a sign of the times. I do hope the green and gold ressurect their fortunes, as I do the Saffers, the world is just no fun without you. 

Ken, with regard to your sins of NZ appreciation, it's just that you suffer, and I should imagine your in a dark pit somewhere smoking a Monte C and surrounded by SLRDC's cracked in half. 

that last para pretty close but i get to go to some good vineyards, top restaurants, catch up with mates and watch great rugby so will stomach the all blacks (their supporters are far worse though - still, if not wearing gold, presumably i won't get spat on quite as much).

i think i understood what you meant but i really am not sure that they take any notice. i don't think they feel they need to. and after all, every side that comes south says exactly that. but they do it to us and SA and everybody. at the moment, they are just that good. also, being switched on for it is one thing. effectively stopping it is another.

as for us, with a bit of luck, the italians could have beaten us. that first disallowed try? ridiculously harsh. we were poor across the park. this is italy. at home. next person that describes foley as the iceman deserves that statue shoved firmly.... i counted four horrible turnover errors - and i was not taking close notice. he scores at the end and everyone raves. spare me. an under 12 D player could have scored it. but sometimes he kicks goals. well big whoop. that is his job. the "iceman" - misses early in a game from near in front at home in front of five men and a brown dog. thurston steps up in the last minute to kick a goal, from the sideline, on his wrong side with his shoulder hanging dead from a season ending injury in front of 80,000+ screaming southerners all wishing him to drop dead. and foley is the iceman? that sums up the difference between rugby and league, in australia. i know people say that we have no one better. well time we tried anyone else.

[JohnS]

Having watched both the Australia vs Italy and NZ All Blacks vs BIL Lions test matches my feelings about the games in comparison...

• I felt that New Zealand was in control of this 1st test
• The All Blacks had superlative rucking, passing and defensive skills in this game. What about that try-saving tackle by Israel Dagg in the second minute? I think therein lies the difference as to why the All Blacks are the best in the world. If the Lions scored and converted, and got a bit of psychological momentum in the game thereafter, the test could have gone to the wire, but the All Blacks composed themselves and were consistent at shutting down any Lion attack down the middle pretty much all night. Even in attack, the All Blacks were content to 'work it up the park' and keep the Lions going steadily backwards in defence. It was great Rugby to watch.
• In comparison, the Australia vs Italy game was dreadful, just dreadful. I mean the Italians strategy for two very long periods of this test was to box kick and rely on Wallaby errors to maintain possession. That's great for a team that is as bad as the Wallabies right now, useless against other teams that have better attacking skills. The Wallabies I think committed close to 20 handling errors...knock-on, misdirected passes, conceded intercepts , it was simply woeful. I don't think I want to watch Will Genia play for Australia again, my confidence is that shot!
• What about the speed of the All Blacks and Lions in getting rid of the ball from the rucks and how deep did were both teams in attack and defence from the rucks and scrums? In comparison, the Wallabies were about as flat as a pancake all game in positioning, hence the handling errors. the number of players who had no idea they were about to receive a pass was too ridiculous to believe. It was like watching schoolboy Rugby, only worse. Oh, and Will Genia, you should watch the All Blacks and Lions play to learn how quickly you should pass the ball from the ruck.
• The All Blacks vs Lions game had my full attention whereas the Australia vs Italy game required me to do something a little more interesting during its duration, that was to mow my back lawn. Also, it helped me re-gather myself from watching such poor Rugby!
• In conclusion, I can't wait for the second test next week between the All Blacks and Lions. I live in hope of a complete 'gutting' of Australian Rugby and that some players are jettisoned forever. The question is, who could take their place? Therein lies the current Australian Wallaby predicament.

[Ken Gargett]

24 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Having watched both the Australia vs Italy and NZ All Blacks vs BIL Lions test matches my feelings about the games in comparison...

• I felt that New Zealand was in control of this 1st test
• The All Blacks had superlative rucking, passing and defensive skills in this game. What about that try-saving tackle by Israel Dagg in the second minute? I think therein lies the difference as to why the All Blacks are the best in the world. If the Lions scored and converted, and got a bit of psychological momentum in the game thereafter, the test could have gone to the wire, but the All Blacks composed themselves and were consistent at shutting down any Lion attack down the middle pretty much all night. Even in attack, the All Blacks were content to 'work it up the park' and keep the Lions going steadily backwards in defence. It was great Rugby to watch.
• In comparison, the Australia vs Italy game was dreadful, just dreadful. I mean the Italians strategy for two very long periods of this test was to box kick and rely on Wallaby errors to maintain possession. That's great for a team that is as bad as the Wallabies right now, useless against other teams that have better attacking skills. The Wallabies I think committed close to 20 handling errors...knock-on, misdirected passes, conceded intercepts , it was simply woeful. I don't think I want to watch Will Genia play for Australia again, my confidence is that shot!
• What about the speed of the All Blacks and Lions in getting rid of the ball from the rucks and how deep did were both teams in attack and defence from the rucks and scrums? In comparison, the Wallabies were about as flat as a pancake all game in positioning, hence the handling errors. the number of players who had no idea they were about to receive a pass was too ridiculous to believe. It was like watching schoolboy Rugby, only worse. Oh, and Will Genia, you should watch the All Blacks and Lions play to learn how quickly you should pass the ball from the ruck.
• The All Blacks vs Lions game had my full attention whereas the Australia vs Italy game required me to do something a little more interesting during its duration, that was to mow my back lawn. Also, it helped me re-gather myself from watching such poor Rugby!
• In conclusion, I can't wait for the second test next week between the All Blacks and Lions. I live in hope of a complete 'gutting' of Australian Rugby and that some players are jettisoned forever. The question is, who could take their place? Therein lies the current Australian Wallaby predicament.

good stuff, john.

i actually had the computer out doing emails for the second half of the wallabies game.

genia completely off his game but like so many, who is better? that is the problem.

i bag foley, deservedly, but he has one attribute i like. no matter how often and how badly he stuffs up, he bounces back. he does not let himself get down because of it. admire that.

people used to bag rugby in australia as a private school game, and some truth in that, but now, it does not even have that. my old school - recently producing guys like pocock, quade, pereisi, karmichael hunt, jake schatz etc - and now, the kids are going anywhere. league is no longer taboo. jaydn sua, young potential superstar at the broncos; kayln ponga, near guaranteed superstar at the cowboys; brodie croft, the new cooper cronk clone at the storm. in past years, all of these guys would have gone to rugby without even considering an alternative.

i'm sure rob could tell a similar story at his old school. so could most of the brizzy private schools and i would be stunned if the same didn't apply in sydney.

if you are a young kid with options - what appeals more? playing italy in front of about 12,000 bored fans in a match of such utter dismal depths; or state of origin in a match of searing quality in front of more than 80,000 screaming fans?

[JohnS]

I agree about Foley's kicking too, Ken. I had an in-depth conversation with Rob in April, when he was down in Sydney, about the problem of the game at the grassroots level. I didn't know how the situation was similar in Brisbane as in Sydney. I concur, the skill level at the second State of Origin game was incomparable to the Wallabies' past two test matches.

[El Presidente]

The lads on the deck asked me friday why kerevi was Qld reds captain when he can barely carry a conversation. 

I replied that he is captain (before his injury) because he is the only reds player who can be guaranteed a starting position any given week.  Sadly true 

[SirVantes]

While the world's press coos over that Lions try, what has had me chuckling in bewilderment is the AB's first try.  Just what was Codie Taylor doing there? I know that Dane Coles has been known to run the touchline, but now his understudy too?  

And this was not a broken field play.  This was the AB's pounding the left side, on their 13th phase, before the ref awarded the penalty.  At the whistle, both props, Whitelock, Cane and Read were in or in the fringes of the ruck.  When Smith taps, to his right was a shortened back line of Barrett, Smith (FB) in line with the left post, Dagg (RW) in line with the right post...and hooker, 10 metres from the right touch.  Under what system does the hooker go to the opposite touchline in 13th phase?

I know there's been criticism of the Lions' switching off, but, really? Daly had Dagg covered.  I suppose he should have shouted to Te'o "Take Dagg, I'm taking the hooker!"

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, SirVantes said:

While the world's press coos over that Lions try, what has had me chuckling in bewilderment is the AB's first try.  Just what was Codie Taylor doing there? I know that Dane Coles has been known to run the touchline, but now his understudy too?  

And this was not a broken field play.  This was the AB's pounding the left side, on their 13th phase, before the ref awarded the penalty.  At the whistle, both props, Whitelock, Cane and Read were in or in the fringes of the ruck.  When Smith taps, to his right was a shortened back line of Barrett, Smith (FB) in line with the left post, Dagg (RW) in line with the right post...and hooker, 10 metres from the right touch.  Under what system does the hooker go to the opposite touchline in 13th phase?

I know there's been criticism of the Lions' switching off, but, really? Daly had Dagg covered.  I suppose he should have shouted to Te'o "Take Dagg, I'm taking the hooker!"

that has been an all black tactic for decades. sean fitzpatrick spent his career seagulling (even a term for it). i can't think of a kiwi hooker who has not done that. why the hooker? no idea but it works for them.

[99call]

9 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

that last para pretty close but i get to go to some good vineyards, top restaurants, catch up with mates and watch great rugby so will stomach the all blacks (their supporters are far worse though - still, if not wearing gold, presumably i won't get spat on quite as much).

i think i understood what you meant but i really am not sure that they take any notice. i don't think they feel they need to. and after all, every side that comes south says exactly that. but they do it to us and SA and everybody. at the moment, they are just that good. also, being switched on for it is one thing. effectively stopping it is another.

as for us, with a bit of luck, the italians could have beaten us. that first disallowed try? ridiculously harsh. we were poor across the park. this is italy. at home. next person that describes foley as the iceman deserves that statue shoved firmly.... i counted four horrible turnover errors - and i was not taking close notice. he scores at the end and everyone raves. spare me. an under 12 D player could have scored it. but sometimes he kicks goals. well big whoop. that is his job. the "iceman" - misses early in a game from near in front at home in front of five men and a brown dog. thurston steps up in the last minute to kick a goal, from the sideline, on his wrong side with his shoulder hanging dead from a season ending injury in front of 80,000+ screaming southerners all wishing him to drop dead. and foley is the iceman? that sums up the difference between rugby and league, in australia. i know people say that we have no one better. well time we tried anyone else.

Thurston is 'special gravy'  I don't watch much league, but really enjoy watching him.  I think a key difference in league and union, (and you comments on foley) could be class related, but not how you'd think.    In living close to rugby league communities here in the North West of England their approach to anything is to demand excellence from each other as standard, if you fail to hit this standard you'll get a raft of sh*t, but if your gods gift to rugby, it 'no big thing' and you just get on with it.   I think Union works the psychology the other way round, to expect poor standards, and to shower a player with gold ticker tape if they kick 80%. It's like an Eton School boy, you pay 1million on their education, and if they can manage to do up their velcro shoes, you're over joyed.

To me it sadly sounds like Union in Australia is very much endangered of peatering out, but it actually sound like people are voting with their bums and tv subscriptions, so why shouldnt it die a death, If increasingly few of you guys want to play or watch it, in preferrence for league, NFL, Aussie rules etc. Is it's death chicken or egg?

It seems like even if Aussy won the next RWC, it wouldn't merit a whole new generation of kids wanting to don the green and gold, is this accurate?  It just feels like your past as a country has a lot more to do with being gritty, and that is supplied and represented by other sports. Is Aussy jetisonning Union, as its turned into a "prawn sandwich brigade" as Roy Keane would say.

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, 99call said:

Thurston is 'special gravy'  I don't watch much league, but really enjoy watching him.  I think a key difference in league and union, (and you comments on foley) could be class related, but not how you'd think.    In living close to rugby league communities here in the North West of England their approach to anything is to demand excellence from each other as standard, if you fail to hit this standard you'll get a raft of sh*t, but if your gods gift to rugby, it 'no big thing' and you just get on with it.   I think Union works the psychology the other way round, to expect poor standards, and to shower a player with gold ticker tape if they kick 80%. It's like an Eton School boy, you pay 1million on their education, and if they can manage to do up their velcro shoes, you're over joyed.

To me it sadly sounds like Union in Australia is very much endangered of peatering out, but it actually sound like people are voting with their bums and tv subscriptions, so why shouldnt it die a death, If increasingly few of you guys want to play or watch it, in preferrence for league, NFL, Aussie rules etc. Is it's death chicken or egg?

It seems like even if Aussy won the next RWC, it wouldn't merit a whole new generation of kids wanting to don the green and gold, is this accurate?  It just feels like your past as a country has a lot more to do with being gritty, and that is supplied and represented by other sports. Is Aussy jetisonning Union, as its turned into a "prawn sandwich brigade" as Roy Keane would say.

possibly something in that. definitely something in the petering out. winning the cup would certainly help but it would depend how the muppets running the game used it. so probably not much use at all. the sad thing was that going back not far, standards demanded by fans, coaches and players themselves were so much higher. i remember when we expected to beat the all blacks. now, we just hope we get done by less than 30. we have a relatively small population and the football time/dollar/players are split among four codes. don't know any other country in the world trying to manage that. and rugby seems to be the loser.

that game yesterday was a reminder of how good rugby can be. been too long since i thought that.

 

[ayepatz]

Finally caught up on the highlights of the first test. Cracking game. Great tries from both sides. Just goes to show what Test rugby can still be, despite years of unnecessary rule-tweaking from the game's governing bodies. Great to see some effective scrummaging once more.

Have just bought my tickets for Scotland's Autumn Internationals this year against the All Blacks and Wallabies at Murrayfield. Been a longstanding ambition to see both teams at Murrayfield, but life and work have always seemed to get in the way. Hopefully this year it will all work out!

[Baldy]

Loving the International test matches so far.  Been an All Blacks fan since my high school days in the late 80s.  Great game against the Lions.  Considering this is their second test match of this season and first serious test, the AB are hopefully only going to improve.  A bit concern about the injuries but we should have enough depth.

Hard to be a rugby fan in Western Canada but I've been following, as much as I can, the AB, Wallabies, and Springboks since the early 90s.  The Boks will rebound back.  Not so certain about the Wallabies but everything goes in cycles.  Was shocked to see how small the crowd was at the match between the Aussies and Italian.  It's a shame.  A strong Aussie side is good for rugby.

Been a supporter of English international soccer for almost as long (I'm sadistic).  English men's soccer is similar to English rugby, both teams make a lot of noise when it doesn't count such as in years in between world cups but disappears during the big tournaments.  The exception was the RWC English team of the early 2000s. 

Big match for my Canadian men's team coming up against the US.  The winner gets a ticket to the 2019 RWC.

[Ken Gargett]

just back to the hotel from the 2nd test. wow. what a fun and exciting game.

best i don't post much - the motelbar in wellington - 100 different rums. and stellar negronis. so much fun.

sonny bill is a new swear word in nz.

and the next kiwi that tells me beauden barrett is the equal of dan carter will get exactly the same response every other kiwi got tonight. he is not a patch on carter. i firmly believe that had carter been playing, the all blacks would have won.

can't wait for the third but surely the all blacks can't stuff up so badly again.

[RijkdeGooier]

Blacks where well ahead and will murder the Lions next game.

Enjoy it while you can. 

Order caskets ?

[99call]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

just back to the hotel from the 2nd test. wow. what a fun and exciting game.

best i don't post much - the motelbar in wellington - 100 different rums. and stellar negronis. so much fun.

sonny bill is a new swear word in nz.

and the next kiwi that tells me beauden barrett is the equal of dan carter will get exactly the same response every other kiwi got tonight. he is not a patch on carter. i firmly believe that had carter been playing, the all blacks would have won.

can't wait for the third but surely the all blacks can't stuff up so badly again.

I hate seeing red cards, whatever the action, but it was a dull....dull tackle.  Enjoy rubbing it in Ken, But get out alive

[Ken Gargett]

8 hours ago, RijkdeGooier said:

Blacks where well ahead and will murder the Lions next game.

Enjoy it while you can. 

Order caskets ?

i had backed the blacks to win by 26 or more. merely because i enjoyed seeing the ab's lose does not mean i don't equally enjoy seeing the lions lose.

i think that, provided less stupidity next game, the lions will get thumped.

[99call]

I was like everyone predicting a whitewash, but with this win, and the fact that New Zealand is a bit of a broken enterprise without rugby, I'm hoping the pressure will reduce them to UN characteristics mistakes. Quite simply. The Lion's have over achieved. And have nothing to lose and everything to win. The opposite is true on the ABs.  

Forget who you support. To see competition present for the best team is where you find greatness in sport. 

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, 99call said:

I was like everyone predicting a whitewash, but with this win, and the fact that New Zealand is a bit of a broken enterprise without rugby, I'm hoping the pressure will reduce them to UN characteristics mistakes. Quite simply. The Lion's have over achieved. And have nothing to lose and everything to win. The opposite is true on the ABs.  

Forget who you support. To see competition present for the best team is where you find greatness in sport. 

still going for the nil all draw.

lot of kiwis are whinging about the ref (there's a shocker) but leaving aside the fairly momentous decision to dismiss williams (second least popular person in nz behind the ref), i thought that the lions were on the wrong end of far more dodgy decisions than the ab's. but i thought the ref had a horror game all round.

even a man down, i thought the ab's should have won it. and easily could have. but not sure the lions have overachieved. i think that they would have seen 1-1 at this stage as about the minimum they'd accept. it does set up a cracker next week. so surprised that so many ab stars were 'muted' on the night. still lots of excellent players but retallick less dominant than he was in the first. dagg not as impressive. but down to seven men, the pack worked overtime. barrett was very average i thought. showed the immense gap between him and carter. he seems fine behind dominant packs with space to run - and to be fair, he rarely has anything else - but he looked lost last night.

and in fairness to kiwis (yes, wash my mouth out), they were a far more gracious and 'happy' (not quite the right word) crowd than they are whether they win or lose to the wallabies. i saw not one kiwi spitting at opposition supporters (a first) and they seemed downcast but not resentful or destructive. like rugby crowds should be.