The glory that is the British & Irish Lions!....Bring on the All Blacks!

[JohnS]

5 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i should say for those who might be lumping me in with kiwi fans, i most certainly am not. three 0-0 draws would be ideal. i will gain no pleasure from a kiwi win, nor a lions. they are both the enemy. but looking forward to seeing the games.

I'm the same, definitely a long-suffering Wallabies supporter who wouldn't mind three draws. I just want to see three tight contests if possible.

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, gweilgi said:

Anyone care to comment on the utter insensitivity of the Blues performing a throat-slitting haka just after the London terror attack?  Whether you'll it a branding exercise or an inclusive expression of culture, they really needn't have pulled a shitty stunt like that.

far be it from me to ever defend the kiwis for anything but i really would not get too fussed. my understanding about the haka is that the meaning has moved from the original challenge to a welcome for distinguished guests and the throat-slitting one represents the drawing the breath of life into the heart and lungs. although i'd bet 99% of kiwis don't know that. there have been complaints about it before and i think that it was even withdrawn for a while. probably a bit dimwitted to use that version but we are talking kiwis. not necessarily the most sensitive nation on the face of the earth.

i always liked the aussie response of standing an inch from them but they had that banned because it upset the poor petals. and then the aussies just went off into their own huddle and ignored them, but that was considered rude (yes, rude to people who are giving the throat-slitting gesture - go figure) so we have to stand and look at it. we have all seen it so many times, it means absolutely nothing these days.

[David88]

26 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

far be it from me to ever defend the kiwis for anything but i really would not get too fussed. my understanding about the haka is that the meaning has moved from the original challenge to a welcome for distinguished guests and the throat-slitting one represents the drawing the breath of life into the heart and lungs. although i'd bet 99% of kiwis don't know that. there have been complaints about it before and i think that it was even withdrawn for a while. probably a bit dimwitted to use that version but we are talking kiwis. not necessarily the most sensitive nation on the face of the earth.

i always liked the aussie response of standing an inch from them but they had that banned because it upset the poor petals. and then the aussies just went off into their own huddle and ignored them, but that was considered rude (yes, rude to people who are giving the throat-slitting gesture - go figure) so we have to stand and look at it. we have all seen it so many times, it means absolutely nothing these days.

I can't say I had any issue with a haka being performed yesterday. I'm just not sure why a Super Rugby side were doing it? It used to be a great spectacle to see, but now I am tired of seeing it. I am also tired of the Kiwi whining whenever a side does not look at them/moves an inch/dares to breathe while it is happening. I can't forgive them for performing it in the changing rooms in Cardiff when the Welsh were going to sing in response. The IRB needs to stop pandering to whatever New Zealand want.

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, David88 said:

I can't say I had any issue with a haka being performed yesterday. I'm just not sure why a Super Rugby side were doing it? It used to be a great spectacle to see, but now I am tired of seeing it. I am also tired of the Kiwi whining whenever a side does not look at them/moves an inch/dares to breathe while it is happening. I can't forgive them for performing it in the changing rooms in Cardiff when the Welsh were going to sing in response. The IRB needs to stop pandering to whatever New Zealand want.

completely agree. they banned us from singing waltzing matilda pre games but we have to line up for a haka? give me a break. and shame on every wallaby captain for not completely ignoring the instructions.

assume blues did it as it was an international match.

[99call]

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

completely agree. they banned us from singing waltzing matilda pre games but we have to line up for a haka? give me a break. and shame on every wallaby captain for not completely ignoring the instructions.

assume blues did it as it was an international match.

Lots of people puzzle over the fact of how to mentally absorb the Haka.   I personally would say to myself "FFS this again!?, Is this all this country has?...and then I would remember the art, history, music, culture, science, engineering, etc etc my country had come up with, and the equation would lead to pity. 

I think the motivation should be, this literally means everything to these people, Their national GDP falls through the floor when they lose, but if we lose we have a wonderful world to return to.   Put simply, if you're talking pride in the shirt and what you stand far,  ours would be as thick as War and Peace, and theres could be written on the back of a napkin. 

As a kid I loved the Haka, but these day's I just look at is as some commercial bit of pageantry that gets rolled out at every possible opportunity. I suspect the lions will see upward of 50 this tour, this will include a hotel staff Haka,  getting a paper from the dairy Haka blah blah.

I hope the Lions don't get sucked into this notion of playing a country, We're playing a very good rugby team and a panel of journalists who live in New Zealand precisely for the reason, they couldn't get a job anywhere else. 

Close to the test team to face the Crusaders ........Come on the lions

 

[99call]

There we go,  come on the LIONS!  

Not the prettiest, but beating the top NZ franchise and making them look a bit toothless is pretty impressive. Admittedly our attack looked pretty blunt and fumbling, but In many ways I didn't really expect us to set the world of fire in that department. 

The defence is looking pretty claustrophobic, which is the foundation of everything. From this point on it's where we can add scoring 2-3 tries on top of that, which I'm still sceptical about. 

The tour is hotting up

[Rustyman]

Good to see the Lions make a go of it.  They played their own game and that is their only chance of winning.  Stuff the criticism!  Winning is its own reward.

[Ken Gargett]

a win is a win and beating the crusaders, even if they made more mistakes in a game than they normally would in a season from the little i saw, is a plus for the tour. but surely the best of the british should easily account for a provincial side, no matter how good?

what i find interesting is all the comments, here and elsewhere, basically saying stuff the criticism of the lions style, just win. the only people i hear raising this are lions fans and the lions media. have not heard of anyone else who would expect them to do anything different. it seems to be some sort of lions beat-up, possibly to try and motivate the team?

of course they should play their own game if they want any chance (think of the 91 world cup final when somehow the aussies conned the poms into trying to play like they did - no prizes for the result).

[Rustyman]

Ken, I think the problem is that the Lions cannot win any other way.  They cannot win playing unstructured football however they can defend for yonks.  That is the way the English beat the Aussies a year or so ago.  

If they can frustrate NZ then they have a chance of victory but I think during this series, scoring try's is going to be at a premium unless NZ gets an early breakthrough.  The question then is, can NZ grind out until they can make the critical breaks of will they lose patience and fall into the Lions trap.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Rustyman

[Ken Gargett]

41 minutes ago, Rustyman said:

Ken, I think the problem is that the Lions cannot win any other way.  They cannot wind playing unstructured football however then can defend for yonks.  That is the way the English beat the Aussies a year or so ago.  

If they can frustrated NZ then they have a chance of victory but I think during this series, scoring try's is going to be at a premium unless NZ gets an early breakthrough.  The question then is can NZ grind out until they can make the critical breaks.

don't doubt that. my point is simply that no one i know down here either thinks that the lions are likely to win in any other manner or that they should play in any other style. and no one i have spoken to or read, from south of the equator, has any problem with that. it just seems people from damp island have some sort of inferiority complex about the style of rugby they play. and no one here really understands why.

[Rustyman]

Agree, complaints of the style of play is worthless.  Beat the other team and they will have to change to match you.

[99call]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

don't doubt that. my point is simply that no one i know down here either thinks that the lions are likely to win in any other manner or that they should play in any other style. and no one i have spoken to or read, from south of the equator, has any problem with that. it just seems people from damp island have some sort of inferiority complex about the style of rugby they play. and no one here really understands why.

There is no inferiority complex Ken, it's simply fear that the ref will refuse to merit (with points) dominance in contact, and set piece. Rugby Union has degenerated into "Super Touch" catering for kind of person who's eyes well up, if you take their mobile phone off them for 5 seconds. 

On Sat the french ref, used a Northern interpretation, and the Crusaders didn't have a f**king clue what was going on. This is exactly how I feel in the reverse 80% of the time when North meets South, as the refs often pander to the more commercial stardust version of the game. Personally I want a game that merits all aspect of the styles of play, and refs found to be leaning one way or another as 'their style' should be dismissed for a lack of professionalism. 

Rugby Union is the best team game, because it celebrates the ability and attributes of all body shapes. "Super Touch" is basically crickets version of IPL limited overs. Loads of people may buy tickets and listen to Sh*te dance music in the stands, but it lacks the true tension and drama of 5 day cricket. The lions don't fear playing there own game, they fear not getting their just deserts for doing so.

 

[Ken Gargett]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

There is no inferiority complex Ken, it's simply fear that the ref will refuse to merit (with points) dominance in contact, and set piece. Rugby Union has degenerated into "Super Touch" catering for kind of person who's eyes well up, if you take their mobile phone off them for 5 seconds. 

On Sat the french ref, used a Northern interpretation, and the Crusaders didn't have a f**king clue what was going on. This is exactly how I feel in the reverse 80% of the time when North meets South, as the refs often pander to the more commercial stardust version of the game. Personally I want a game that merits all aspect of the styles of play, and refs found to be leaning one way or another as 'their style' should be dismissed for a lack of professionalism. 

Rugby Union is the best team game, because it celebrates the ability and attributes of all body shapes. "Super Touch" is basically crickets version of IPL limited overs. Loads of people may buy tickets and listen to Sh*te dance music in the stands, but it lacks the true tension and drama of 5 day cricket. The lions don't fear playing there own game, they fear not getting their just deserts for doing so.

with the greatest respect, i think that argument is a complete load of crap and merely suits the narrative that the northern hemisphere wants to put forth. and i say that without any bias towards either side - i like to see them both lose.

i don't know how much super rugby you watch but to dismiss it as super touch suggests not much. for years, we have heard the same complaints and they are rubbish. that old northern hemisphere chant that 'we might lose but at least we play pure rugby'. i think it is complete nonsense. there are simply two styles - which may or may not have been influenced by the referees - and in some years they are close; others less so. one could argue that the southern hemisphere style has proved the better style because it has chalked up far more wins, or it could simply be that the southern hemisphere has had far better players over the years. not always but in general. if the south moved more to the style played in the north, it would lose even more fans.

two of the three refs for the tests are from the northern hemisphere. why the hell are lions fans/media going on about their concerns? it should be the other way around (that said, anything that upsets kiwis is a bonus) but, and this is rare, i have heard very little about it from kiwi fans. i'd suggest they have far more reason to be concerned.

as for styles, i've gone from someone who did not miss a game, if i was in town, for 40 years to someone now far less interested. this year, i simply did not bother to go to some of the games - and i have 30 year seats, so not a question of dosh. it is not because it has turned into some stardust version but more because the level of skill has plummeted - compared to rugby league, most of the time it seems amateurish these days. far more so than when it was amateur. also, it gets bogged down with absurd interpretations and so much of the game is spent resetting set pieces. who wants to watch that?

i think the body shape argument is merely a convenient one that has little to do with why rugby was such a great game. the tribal aspect - almost completely gone (arguably possibly less so at international level) - was important. i would simply rather stay at home and watch the broncos or whoever than go to the rugby. the quality of play is far superior most times.

in theory, refs should be consistent around the world. it comes back to the inept administrating that has condemned the game around the globe. interest in rugby has crashed in recent years for many reasons, and sadly they will not come back to the game because of a good scrum (and i say that as someone who holds as one of his favourite rugby memories the pushover try the wallabies scored against the welsh at cardiff arms).

but all this going on about not getting the rewards they deserve etc, seems like the lions fans getting in their whinging in advance for if/when they don't win.

[99call]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

with the greatest respect, i think that argument is a complete load of crap and merely suits the narrative that the northern hemisphere wants to put forth. and i say that without any bias towards either side - i like to see them both lose.

i don't know how much super rugby you watch but to dismiss it as super touch suggests not much. for years, we have heard the same complaints and they are rubbish. that old northern hemisphere chant that 'we might lose but at least we play pure rugby'. i think it is complete nonsense. there are simply two styles - which may or may not have been influenced by the referees - and in some years they are close; others less so. one could argue that the southern hemisphere style has proved the better style because it has chalked up far more wins, or it could simply be that the southern hemisphere has had far better players over the years. not always but in general. if the south moved more to the style played in the north, it would lose even more fans.

two of the three refs for the tests are from the northern hemisphere. why the hell are lions fans/media going on about their concerns? it should be the other way around (that said, anything that upsets kiwis is a bonus) but, and this is rare, i have heard very little about it from kiwi fans. i'd suggest they have far more reason to be concerned.

as for styles, i've gone from someone who did not miss a game, if i was in town, for 40 years to someone now far less interested. this year, i simply did not bother to go to some of the games - and i have 30 year seats, so not a question of dosh. it is not because it has turned into some stardust version but more because the level of skill has plummeted - compared to rugby league, most of the time it seems amateurish these days. far more so than when it was amateur. also, it gets bogged down with absurd interpretations and so much of the game is spent resetting set pieces. who wants to watch that?

i think the body shape argument is merely a convenient one that has little to do with why rugby was such a great game. the tribal aspect - almost completely gone (arguably possibly less so at international level) - was important. i would simply rather stay at home and watch the broncos or whoever than go to the rugby. the quality of play is far superior most times.

in theory, refs should be consistent around the world. it comes back to the inept administrating that has condemned the game around the globe. interest in rugby has crashed in recent years for many reasons, and sadly they will not come back to the game because of a good scrum (and i say that as someone who holds as one of his favourite rugby memories the pushover try the wallabies scored against the welsh at cardiff arms).

but all this going on about not getting the rewards they deserve etc, seems like the lions fans getting in their whinging in advance for if/when they don't win.

Hmm, I don't really see a lot of whining coming out of the Lions camp/fans. Most of it is merely reacting to the absolute drivel coming out of the New Zealand Herald. I've never read a paper that is so one eye'd that is should be air dropped in pamphlet form with a 1930's German font. 

I actually agree with a great deal of what your saying Ken, and in seeing the game dampen in appeal, and change for the worse, It's actually pretty sad to hear you (as a once avid supporter), have now effectively tuned out. 

I'm not having the characterisation of winging poms, its a nonsense. Aussie and NZ teams/fans do it to an equal if not greater extent, you simply register the caveat of "We're not going to try and take that victory away from the opposition,.............but..........and then go on the give a half hour lecture on how you were robbed. The Aussie's are not as bad, but Jesus the Faux stiff upper lip thing the NZ people have got going is laughable.

I preferred the game in the amature era, but if it is to be professional, then all i'm saying is for god sake actually make the officials professional. They're only human, yes but, what the game needs back is the rivalry, the niggle etc etc. and if you've left a sporting spectical feeling like the most influential player on the field was the ref, then your scuppered. 

I hope the game recovers it's appeal for you Ken, it's always sad to hear someone turning away from something they've enjoyed so much, but it the meantime, good to hear you've got back up options......American Football though!!! wholley moley!!!!   I have a cyanide capsule hidden in my tooth, for the day I reach for that button on the remote.

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

Hmm, I don't really see a lot of whining coming out of the Lions camp/fans. Most of it is merely reacting to the absolute drivel coming out of the New Zealand Herald. I've never read a paper that is so one eye'd that is should be air dropped in pamphlet form with a 1930's German font. 

I actually agree with a great deal of what your saying Ken, and in seeing the game dampen in appeal, and change for the worse, It's actually pretty sad to hear you (as a once avid supporter), have now effectively tuned out. 

I'm not having the characterisation of winging poms, its a nonsense. Aussie and NZ teams/fans do it to an equal if not greater extent, you simply register the caveat of "We're not going to try and take that victory away from the opposition,.............but..........and then go on the give a half hour lecture on how you were robbed. The Aussie's are not as bad, but Jesus the Faux stiff upper lip thing the NZ people have got going is laughable.

I preferred the game in the amature era, but if it is to be professional, then all i'm saying is for god sake actually make the officials professional. They're only human, yes but, what the game needs back is the rivalry, the niggle etc etc. and if you've left a sporting spectical feeling like the most influential player on the field was the ref, then your scuppered. 

I hope the game recovers it's appeal for you Ken, it's always sad to hear someone turning away from something they've enjoyed so much, but it the meantime, good to hear you've got back up options......American Football though!!! wholley moley!!!!   I have a cyanide capsule hidden in my tooth, for the day I reach for that button on the remote.

 

 

first, apols if my post seemed a tad harsh - not intended to be that way, just put into words what a couple of blokes chatting over beers might have said with less filter than perhaps was required.

kiwis can whinge with the best of them and perhaps i've missed some of it because i have not been following the kiwi reporting as closely as i once did. it may simply be that i read more of the british media. if, however, the kiwis do lose then you will hear the whinging on mars. or it may be local reporting is picking up on the british whinging because that is always a sport in itself.

and yes, we can do a fair job, though having lived in both countries, i really think we'd be in line for a bronze at best with england and nz fighting it out over gold and silver.

i know that in games like NFL and league, refs make blunders (and it will always be part of sport) but they are nowhere near as bad as rugby, sadly. perhaps that is simply because the rules have got so complex that you could just about penalise either side every set piece. the blunders in NFL and league may influence the game but one feels they are more occasional. rugby sometimes has games where all you can see is a ref blowing one side off the park and stuffing the game. i'm too old to keep watching that. if you'd said to me even three years ago that i would choose not to attend a reds game, i'd have laughed. but eventually, when the refs are stuffing the game, the rules mean so much time is wasted, players are going to the sin bin for the most trivial of offences through ridiculous officiating/administrating and the skill level is, bar for a few players/teams, a fraction of that exhibited by league players, it got too much.

as i have said before, these days, if there was one tv on the desert island and no video to tape the game, and the redskins clashed with a wallaby test, i'd be watching the skins.

[JohnS]

The Crusaders game was the first time they lost this season, so it was a good win for the Lions from that point of view. I think the win was even better for them as they had Owen Farrell's dad, Andy address their ill-discipline in the previous game and they improved their penalties conceded in this game from the one prior to the Blues, from 13 to 7.

In regards to their style, I personally couldn't care less if they've scored 2 tries in 240 minutes of rugby so far on tour, if that's their game plan and strength, stick to it! Oh my, how I wish the Wallabies would utilising better kicking skills and discipline in their Rugby too (excuse me if I sound like a broken record!)

[Ken Gargett]

16 minutes ago, JohnS said:

The Crusaders game was the first time they lost this season, so it was a good win for the Lions from that point of view. I think the win was even better for them as they had Owen Farrell's dad, Andy address their ill-discipline in the previous game and they improved their penalties conceded in this game from the one prior to the Blues, from 13 to 7.

In regards to their style, I personally couldn't care less if they've scored 2 tries in 240 minutes of rugby so far on tour, if that's their game plan and strength, stick to it! Oh my, how I wish the Wallabies would utilising better kicking skills and discipline in their Rugby too (excuse me if I sound like a broken record!)

john, the problem is that the wallabies don't have anyone with better kicking skills. ground kicking, foley is very average - would not rate in any kiwi or northern team. cooper is cooper - occasionally something terrific but too often a dud. his kicking has regressed and is substandard. who else?

and that is a disgrace. does no one coach these skills? do young players simply no longer kick? there was a time when you'd have belly-laughed if someone said league players were better kickers (talking general play largely here). now, there would have been three dozen over the last decade who'd leave anyone in aussie rugby in the dust.

i know that nsw used to bag us for mclean and lynagh (who were both still superior 5/8s in almost every way, to ella and the rest of the parade nsw kept sending to do battle, all hyped to the eyeballs and all sent back home in tears), but those guys could make extraordinary metres with superb kicking skills. you only had to talk to their forwards to find out what they thought of them. lot easier to trot 50 metres to a lineout than to ruck and maul the same distance.

[JohnS]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

john, the problem is that the wallabies don't have anyone with better kicking skills. ground kicking, foley is very average - would not rate in any kiwi or northern team. cooper is cooper - occasionally something terrific but too often a dud. his kicking has regressed and is substandard. who else?

and that is a disgrace. does no one coach these skills? do young players simply no longer kick? there was a time when you'd have belly-laughed if someone said league players were better kickers (talking general play largely here). now, there would have been three dozen over the last decade who'd leave anyone in aussie rugby in the dust.

i know that nsw used to bag us for mclean and lynagh (who were both still superior 5/8s in almost every way, to ella and the rest of the parade nsw kept sending to do battle, all hyped to the eyeballs and all sent back home in tears), but those guys could make extraordinary metres with superb kicking skills. you only had to talk to their forwards to find out what they thought of them. lot easier to trot 50 metres to a lineout than to ruck and maul the same distance.

I was watching the Wallabies on Saturday against Fiji and the ever-young commentator, Gordon Bray mentioned the lack of kicking options too. Do younger players no longer kick? Yes, in Sydney I don't see it at junior levels. I was at a School Representative Rugby Union trial last week and I noticed a great number of players who you can tell did not have Rugby skills such as rucking and mauling. I helped select the team for the Primary Schools Rugby Union State Carnival in August and we had to choose some League players. There was barely any kicking in the trial games on the day. Believe it or not, we didn't trial kicks for goal either, but it wasn't my team to select and I wasn't running the trial.

[Ken Gargett]

14 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I was watching the Wallabies on Saturday against Fiji and the ever-young commentator, Gordon Bray mentioned the lack of kicking options too. Do younger players no longer kick? Yes, in Sydney I don't see it at junior levels. I was at a School Representative Rugby Union trial last week and I noticed a great number of players who you can tell did not have Rugby skills such as rucking and mauling. I helped select the team for the Primary Schools Rugby Union State Carnival in August and we had to choose some League players. There was barely any kicking in the trial games on the day. Believe it or not, we didn't trial kicks for goal either, but it wasn't my team to select and I wasn't running the trial.

no surprise, john, however sad it is. imagine that in nz!

my fave moment on saturday was when gordon called karmichael hunt, conrad hunt. i thought that is showing your age!

[Rustyman]

John, seeing as you are involved in school rugby, has the popularity of the sport gone down due to recent poor Wallaby performances or has it been going down for the longer than that.  The reason I ask is that I very rarely see kids playing rugby in my neighbourhood.  League yes, soccer yes, but very little rugby.

[JohnS]

In Sydney, at the junior level, what you find is that Soccer (or Football in other parts of the world) is the number one sport for participation. There are so many players who play the game from ages 6 to 12 that I believe it contributes to paying players at the elite level. Football Federation Australia are also savvy at having plenty of junior representative programs so that keen parents and players can part with some hard-earned cash on the premise that they'll get somewhere in soccer in this country, when in reality they most probably won't, although soccer is not alone in going down this revenue path.

The best sport in Australia in managing junior or 'grassroots' participation is without a doubt the AFL. They have been very proactive in the last 10 years in getting involved at the school level to organise competitions at the Public School Sport Association level (which is the competition Public Schools play on Fridays against each other) and subsidising the cost of junior fees for weekend players, especially in non-AFL states such as New South Wales and Queensland.

Rugby League was the number one winter sport at school level when I was a kid, I represented my school and I don't recall soccer as an option for participation. By the early 90's League was out and soccer took over on the basis of safety concerns. It took League 20 years to 'wake up' to themselves and copy the AFL model by offering to run Public School Sport Association competitions on Friday at their cost. The fact is that Weekend League participation dropped off at alarming levels over the years and something had to be done. I also attended the Primary School Rugby League trials in March and the standard of play was higher than the recent Union trials.

Rugby Union is trying to do what League has recently done, but they've only had success in running Public School Sport Association competitions in the traditional Rugby Union supporting areas of Sydney, i.e. the Eastern Suburbs and North Shore, and only in two PSSA Zones. They have a long way to catch up for lost time, I can tell you, and they need to inject more funds in my opinion if they want to compete with soccer, AFL and League at the junior level. Rugby Union continues to rely on the Private School competitions that run on Saturday morning, i.e. the English-influenced GPS model school, but I think they know that they need to go beyond that traditional model now.

[Rustyman]

John, thanks for the reply.  One of the reasons I ask is that one of my sons went to Randwick Boys (a previous bastion on rugby) for a couple of years and even there, there didn't seem to be much appreciation of their rugby history and promotion of the code.

[Steens]

Lets add whinging Aussies to whinging Poms ,we do our talking on the field like real men

[Ken Gargett]

oh please, give me a break. kiwis don't whinge? next you'll be telling us you've found an honest politician. no nation can be absolved from such charges but some do it better than others and it will go down to the wire for the gold medal between the poms and kiwis. seriously, kiwis have such monumental chips on their collective shoulders it is a wonder the islands don't tip over.

more seriously, you say kiwis talk 'like real men'. does that mean that kiwis are not actually real men, just like them?

[gweilgi]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

john, the problem is that the wallabies don't have anyone with better kicking skills. ground kicking, foley is very average - would not rate in any kiwi or northern team. cooper is cooper - occasionally something terrific but too often a dud. his kicking has regressed and is substandard. who else?

Foley may not be the best kicker around, but he is a very useful flyhalf.  Saving grace and all that.

As for kicking, it remains an enduring mystery to me why Australian teams a,) do not seem to be able to kick; and b,) why they still insist on box-kicking when there is no need whatsoever.  Talent may be involved, of course, but kicking can be learned.  It can be practised.  Johnny Wilkinson may have had the talent, but he did not sit there waiting for the astounding skill to settle on him like divine manna from heaven.  

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

and that is a disgrace. does no one coach these skills? do young players simply no longer kick? there was a time when you'd have belly-laughed if someone said league players were better kickers (talking general play largely here). now, there would have been three dozen over the last decade who'd leave anyone in aussie rugby in the dust.

Money does play a role there ... not only for League but also AFL.

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know that nsw used to bag us for mclean and lynagh (who were both still superior 5/8s in almost every way, to ella and the rest of the parade nsw kept sending to do battle, all hyped to the eyeballs and all sent back home in tears), but those guys could make extraordinary metres with superb kicking skills. you only had to talk to their forwards to find out what they thought of them. lot easier to trot 50 metres to a lineout than to ruck and maul the same distance.

Sledging Ella?  Them's fighting words....