The glory that is the British & Irish Lions!....Bring on the All Blacks!

[99call]

I think sometimes people are only as good as you allow them to be. In one breath NZ super rugby players can seem like miracle worker. But then again their defences a piss poor. AWJones has copped a heap of shit up here, but I thought he rammed up his work rate on grounding Retallik quite well. 

I think Teo will be on 1st half next week and may get the Lion's some points early. Then as we say up here about the AB. Doesn't matter if you've killed them in the 1st half, you then need to burn the body. Last 20 is going to be potentially painfull

[David88]

Well that result came as a bit of a shock. The ref was brave to give SBW that (deserved) red, nice to see him showing some backbone even if he had a game best forgotten. 

I still can't see the lions getting another win though. Thought the allblacks were very quiet today. While some of that comes down to the lions defence I'm not certain they can keep it up for another game. Hope I'm wrong though!

[gweilgi]

On 6/25/2017 at 6:23 PM, Ken Gargett said:

possibly something in that. definitely something in the petering out. winning the cup would certainly help but it would depend how the muppets running the game used it. so probably not much use at all. the sad thing was that going back not far, standards demanded by fans, coaches and players themselves were so much higher. i remember when we expected to beat the all blacks. now, we just hope we get done by less than 30. we have a relatively small population and the football time/dollar/players are split among four codes. don't know any other country in the world trying to manage that. and rugby seems to be the loser.

Being the proud owner of an internet, I just looked up some stats...  

Ireland has less than 5 million inhabitants (6.5 if you include Norther Ireland).  Their most popular sports are Gaelic Football and Hurling -- Rugby only comes in at number four.  accounting for only 8% of all sports match attendance and 1.4% in terms of participation.  And yet, the Irish produced Rugby teams that can win the Six Nations, that are serious contenders for the RWC, that broke the All Blacks winning streak ... and doing all this without importing Islander talent.

What this suggests to me is that splitting resources and fan allegiance may not be the true reason for the Australian Rugby malaise, nor the overall population size.  

If you look at Tier 2 teams, that impression is even stronger.  Nations like Rumania, Georgia or Canada hare smaller in size, have far fewer financial resources and even field genuine amateur sides -- and yet they manage to put in very credible efforts.

Solutions?  I have none.

Two suggestions, though:

1. Put the entire ARU boarding front of a firing squad, metaphorically speaking.  Start from scratch, with a remit of re-thinking the fundamentals.

2. Michael Cheika.  He is good, no doubt.  He is committed, no doubt.  He loves the sport, unquestionably.  But does he have the right coaching team?  Does he have the ability to infect his players with passion and dedication that the Toxic Hobbit has in such abundance?  

 

 

 

 

[gweilgi]

13 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

just back to the hotel from the 2nd test. wow. what a fun and exciting game.

best i don't post much - the motelbar in wellington - 100 different rums. and stellar negronis. so much fun.

My test of a good bar isn't the Negronis.

It's their ability to make a Pink Gin.  So many bars (even in five star hotels) don't even know what it is, I have taken to googling the recipe (in the local language) so I can show it to the barman.  

 

13 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

sonny bill is a new swear word in nz.

As you were at the match, you would not have caught the TV commentary on Foxtel.  An all-NZ crew, they bemoaned the red card and thought it terribly unfair.

Not even us Poms on our best day could whinge that much...

 

13 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

and the next kiwi that tells me beauden barrett is the equal of dan carter will get exactly the same response every other kiwi got tonight. he is not a patch on carter. i firmly believe that had carter been playing, the all blacks would have won.

Amen.

Interesting factoid.  We looked up some stats on kicking during the match.  The conversion rate for Barrett is worse than Foley's.  

http://linebreakrugby.com/2016/06/rugby-kicking-stats/

 

13 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

can't wait for the third but surely the all blacks can't stuff up so badly again.

Miracles do happen.  The Lions have won against expectations.  That will surely be a huge boost in motivation.  Nor did they sustain any major injuries.  They really need to keep their discipline, though...

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, gweilgi said:

Being the proud owner of an internet, I just looked up some stats...  

Ireland has less than 5 million inhabitants (6.5 if you include Norther Ireland).  Their most popular sports are Gaelic Football and Hurling -- Rugby only comes in at number four.  accounting for only 8% of all sports match attendance and 1.4% in terms of participation.  And yet, the Irish produced Rugby teams that can win the Six Nations, that are serious contenders for the RWC, that broke the All Blacks winning streak ... and doing all this without importing Islander talent.

What this suggests to me is that splitting resources and fan allegiance may not be the true reason for the Australian Rugby malaise, nor the overall population size.  

If you look at Tier 2 teams, that impression is even stronger.  Nations like Rumania, Georgia or Canada hare smaller in size, have far fewer financial resources and even field genuine amateur sides -- and yet they manage to put in very credible efforts.

 

the firing squad appeals.

but you may have hit on something with those figures. rugby would be lucky to come in the top ten sports here. it is now well last as a football code and throw in cricket, golf, tennis, athletics, netball, basketball and on and on and you have a very minor sport. two states only play it, so around the same number as ireland. then take away all of those not involved. the vast majority of rugby players come from 8-10 schools in qld and the same in nsw. it is a very small base. that started to widen a while back but now, even those schools are no longer the bastions they were. many of their best go to league.

perhaps i should not be so critical. perhaps we are doing well!

defining a bar is a potentially lengthy and divisive post - will leave that to you. this was a rum bar so perhaps not rulinmg the world of pink gin is not a crime.

that said, i wish the three remaining people on the planet who still order a pink gin (in public) all the best. told you it would be divisive.

[gweilgi]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

the firing squad appeals.

I thought it might...

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but you may have hit on something with those figures. rugby would be lucky to come in the top ten sports here. it is now well last as a football code and throw in cricket, golf, tennis, athletics, netball, basketball and on and on and you have a very minor sport. two states only play it, so around the same number as ireland. then take away all of those not involved. the vast majority of rugby players come from 8-10 schools in qld and the same in nsw. it is a very small base. that started to widen a while back but now, even those schools are no longer the bastions they were. many of their best go to league.

I'd throw in the solid base over in WA of emigrants from South Africa and Zimbabwe.  They may not be huge in numerical terms, but they are very devoted ... Rugby is not just a sport for them, it is a culture, a religion even.

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

perhaps i should not be so critical. perhaps we are doing well!

You are the reigning vice world champion.  That is not to be sneezed at...

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

defining a bar is a potentially lengthy and divisive post - will leave that to you. this was a rum bar so perhaps not rulinmg the world of pink gin is not a crime.

that said, i wish the three remaining people on the planet who still order a pink gin (in public) all the best. told you it would be divisive.

I am quite happy to order something else, and I do love a good rum.  This is simply one basic test of mine to establish the quality of an establishment.  

That said, I am a traditionalist, and I distrust fashions and fads.  I was a gin drinker before gin became fashionable, and I will be a gin aficionado long after the next Big Thing will have hit the bars.  The same applies to rum...

 

[Ken Gargett]

14 hours ago, gweilgi said:

I'd throw in the solid base over in WA of emigrants from South Africa and Zimbabwe.  They may not be huge in numerical terms, but they are very devoted ... Rugby is not just a sport for them, it is a culture, a religion even.

You are the reigning vice world champion.  That is not to be sneezed at...

i think you'll find that the rugby fraternity from SA and zimbabwe is more fans than players. and it is quite small. very small i'd suggest. we are not seeing players come through. perhaps in coming years but if the muppets at the aru cut the force, forget it.

and that 2nd place was so far above where we deserved. it has given us a completely false sense of where we are.

watching the first lions test and attending the 2nd one has reminded me of all the things i love about rugby. i have/had become extremely disillusioned. perhaps there is hope but i don't see any light or even a tunnel here.

[gweilgi]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

i think you'll find that the rugby fraternity from SA and zimbabwe is more fans than players. and it is quite small. very small i'd suggest. we are not seeing players come through. perhaps in coming years but if the muppets at the aru cut the force, forget it.

Mighty oaks grow from small acorns ... all popular sports rely on a relatively small hard core of fans.  And those Safa transplants may not have the numbers, but they have enthusiasm and they have kids.  They put in the effort to make sure their kids see Rugby, and play Rugby.  And where a few kids go, more will follow.  I hope.

Even after spending only a week in Perth and Margaret River back in April, I was impressed by the effort the Force was putting into outreach.  They make huge efforts to be visible, to be part of the community and get them involved.  I am not sure how it is up in banana-bender territory, but here in Sydney I see no such efforts being made by the 'Tahs.  

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

and that 2nd place was so far above where we deserved. it has given us a completely false sense of where we are.

The Wallabies won every single match bar the final, and their opponents were not all small-fry pushovers.  And the final -- at least the version I witnessed -- was closer than the score suggests.

What we also have to take into account is that many teams (definitely including the Wallabies,historically) tend to have a slump after a RWC.  

 

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

watching the first lions test and attending the 2nd one has reminded me of all the things i love about rugby. i have/had become extremely disillusioned. perhaps there is hope but i don't see any light or even a tunnel here.

It's why I personally prefer to watch a GOOD match over a match in which my team wins.  Of course I will always cheer for England -- especially when our chariot swings so low that Boadicea's spinning blades will cut the enemy off at the knees -- but on balance, I'd rather go and see a free-flowing match with plenty of running Rugby and tries rather than technical games that are won on kicking.  This was why the match I most enjoyed attending at the last RWC was between Canada and Rumania: two Tier 2 nations with nothing to gain but prestige playing the best Rugby they knew how, and producing a massive upset at the end.

[Ken Gargett]

7 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

Mighty oaks grow from small acorns ... all popular sports rely on a relatively small hard core of fans.  And those Safa transplants may not have the numbers, but they have enthusiasm and they have kids.  They put in the effort to make sure their kids see Rugby, and play Rugby.  And where a few kids go, more will follow.  I hope.

Even after spending only a week in Perth and Margaret River back in April, I was impressed by the effort the Force was putting into outreach.  They make huge efforts to be visible, to be part of the community and get them involved.  I am not sure how it is up in banana-bender territory, but here in Sydney I see no such efforts being made by the 'Tahs.  

The Wallabies won every single match bar the final, and their opponents were not all small-fry pushovers.  And the final -- at least the version I witnessed -- was closer than the score suggests.

What we also have to take into account is that many teams (definitely including the Wallabies,historically) tend to have a slump after a RWC.  

 

It's why I personally prefer to watch a GOOD match over a match in which my team wins.  Of course I will always cheer for England -- especially when our chariot swings so low that Boadicea's spinning blades will cut the enemy off at the knees -- but on balance, I'd rather go and see a free-flowing match with plenty of running Rugby and tries rather than technical games that are won on kicking.  This was why the match I most enjoyed attending at the last RWC was between Canada and Rumania: two Tier 2 nations with nothing to gain but prestige playing the best Rugby they knew how, and producing a massive upset at the end.

re-read what you just wrote in the context of the blokes administrating the game trying to get rid of the force. insanity. was at the lions game with a mate from perth who is not a fan but he was saying that the mood there is simply that if the force is gone, rugby will never ever gain a toehold again. he is ofn the vintage and has a lot of mates among those expats. i suggested 20 years. he said, no. they would never forget and never forgive.

the world cup? for me, we played no really decent side. not a good south african side, not a strong english side. nothing until the final when we were exposed. and with any justice, the poor scots would have won the game for the 1/4 and we woyld never have got close. we won that game by poor reffing. and even the argies showed well against us in the semi. that was far from comprehensive. the final? there was a brief period where we threw everything at it and there seemed the tiniest possibility. so the ab's simply went up to 2nd gear and resolved that. one always felt that if we had anything more in the tank, they'd have just gone up another gear again. and they had plenty left.

[gweilgi]

6 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

re-read what you just wrote in the context of the blokes administrating the game trying to get rid of the force. insanity. was at the lions game with a mate from perth who is not a fan but he was saying that the mood there is simply that if the force is gone, rugby will never ever gain a toehold again. he is ofn the vintage and has a lot of mates among those expats. i suggested 20 years. he said, no. they would never forget and never forgive.

Oh, yes, I agree completely.  To be a truly national sport, the Force cannot be permitted to be killed off.  Far better -- as I expressed in an earlier post -- to go back to fundamentals, which must include a total rethink of the entire Super Rugby setup.  The current tournament format is untenable.  

 

6 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

the world cup? for me, we played no really decent side. not a good south african side, not a strong english side. nothing until the final when we were exposed. and with any justice, the poor scots would have won the game for the 1/4 and we woyld never have got close. we won that game by poor reffing. and even the argies showed well against us in the semi. that was far from comprehensive. the final? there was a brief period where we threw everything at it and there seemed the tiniest possibility. so the ab's simply went up to 2nd gear and resolved that. one always felt that if we had anything more in the tank, they'd have just gone up another gear again. and they had plenty left.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you may have caught the English Disease of judging the national team (pick your sport) to be worse than it actually is?

[Ken Gargett]

2 hours ago, gweilgi said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that you may have caught the English Disease of judging the national team (pick your sport) to be worse than it actually is?

i did thoroughly enjoy that when i lived in england.

one could look at it from the angle of who in that side would make either the 91 or 99 team. very very few, i'd suggest. or how many would make either the nz team or the lions. possibly no one. izzy? hooper on the bench?

[JohnS]

As if beating the All Blacks at home isn't hard enough, here's some statistics to help contemplate the Lions task in the third test...

* Until last week's loss in Wellington, the All Blacks hadn't lost a test at home since 2009.

* The All Blacks haven't lost 2 tests in a calendar year since 2011.

* It's been three years since the All Blacks haven't scored a try in a test.

* The last All Black loss in Auckland was in 1994.

[Scotty]

The last time the AB's lost 2 in a row at home was 1998.  It will absolutely happen again, whether it's this weekend, we will see, but I doubt it, but I shall be awake bright and early with a breakfast rum and Cuban to see if Gatland's over reliance on the Welsh will overcome the best RU side in the world.  How AWJ remains in the starting 15 I cannot fathom over Courtney Lawes. 

[gweilgi]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The last time the AB's lost 2 in a row at home was 1998.  It will absolutely happen again, whether it's this weekend, we will see, but I doubt it, but I shall be awake bright and early with a breakfast rum and Cuban to see if Gatland's over reliance on the Welsh will overcome the best RU side in the world.  How AWJ remains in the starting 15 I cannot fathom over Courtney Lawes. 

How do you figure on an over-reliance on the Welsh?  There are ten English players in the line-up for tomorrow, as opposed to seven Welsh.  No Scots, which i find interesting -- I rate Laidlaw quite highly.  

[Scotty]

1 minute ago, gweilgi said:

How do you figure on an over-reliance on the Welsh?  There are ten English players in the line-up for tomorrow, as opposed to seven Welsh.  No Scots, which i find interesting -- I rate Laidlaw quite highly.  

I agree, Laidlaw would be a great option for the bench instead of Webb, but Murray has been very decent so far. He "out Smithed" Aaron Smith last week, again.

In the starting 15, I believe that Williams, Davis and Warburton should be there.  Warburton came to life in the 2nd test.  As for AWJ and Faletau, no, there are better options.  Faletau's try in the 2nd test has saved him from a punt on CJ Stander I believe who is much more Billy V, who most certainly would be starting the test matches if he had travelled.

The thing that has surprised me the most is the consistency of Jamie George at hooker, his completion rate is amazing, though I would still have loved to see Rory Best, he is so talismanic, in the same vein as Keith Wood and another natural leader.

Maku Vunipola should be swapped with Magrath I think also, he is not consistent enough to start and if he has a nightmare, he can be bloody awful. He is much better suited to coming off the bench half way through the 2nd half when his ability in the lose can be devastating.

Anyway, fingers crossed.

When does your four nations start down there?  Always enjoy getting up early for those games.

 

 

 

[99call]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

The last time the AB's lost 2 in a row at home was 1998.  It will absolutely happen again, whether it's this weekend, we will see, but I doubt it, but I shall be awake bright and early with a breakfast rum and Cuban to see if Gatland's over reliance on the Welsh will overcome the best RU side in the world.  How AWJ remains in the starting 15 I cannot fathom over Courtney Lawes. 

Lots have said AWJ over Lawes, is experience, and I think thats a factor.  but far more importantly I think he is a better scrummaging lock.1st half scrum time is crucial

Mate, Gatland is a pragmatist, pure and simple. Clive Woodward took a massive English contingent in 2005 even though England came 4th in the six nations. and he also took players like Ollie Smith??? and Andy Titterall?? and actually played them in matches!!!

Come on dude, England have a sizeable majority in the tour, and rightly so, based on form, this was also true of Wales in 2013.  Gatland just wants to win, pure and simple.

People slagged players like Johnathan Davies off, when he was put in for BOD, guess what? he had a stormer. Then they slagged him off for another 4 years, and guess what.......he's having a stormer!.  I couldn't care less with the make up of the touring team, thats not the concept, I couldn't care if no Welsh players were picked, it's just not the point.

As far as the Geo 6 is concerned, I think Gatland purposefully chose people who weren't elite players, because he knew, and he knew, they knew, he had no intention of playing them.  I think it has back fired, and been massively unfavourable, and hopefully it will never happen again.  But, in being an ex-player himself, I actually think he did it in show of respect to people like Joe Launchbury. i.e. 'you're better then a bench warmer, don't waste your time'. 

All for one, and all for the Lions. Come on!!!

 

[MaxG]

Anybody know how to watch this from the U.S.?

 

[99call]

language!!!

one * does not absolve you of maintaining standards.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Ken Gargett
language

[Ken Gargett]

personally, loved it. loved the series. reminded me why i love rugby and i really needed reminding.

i did say i'd like a drawn series, three nil all draws but this will do.

three cracking games, getting across for one, seeing the all blacks beaten at home, a drawn series and one which finishes with the all blacks whinging about a decision that could have (should have) given them the series. i'm starting to wonder if i wrote the script in a parallel universe.

as a postscript, hate to be the next side the all blacks play. oh whoops, that is us. we'll be massacred.

also, dan carter plays that series and the all blacks win 3-0. comfortably. barrett is not carter's bootlace. and even if he turns into something brilliant with time, this is a series he'll never get back.

gatland for next coach of the all blacks? oh if only we could poach him (and 15 of their players).

[99call]

12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

personally, loved it. loved the series. reminded me why i love rugby and i really needed reminding.

i did say i'd like a drawn series, three nil all draws but this will do.

three cracking games, getting across for one, seeing the all blacks beaten at home, a drawn series and one which finishes with the all blacks whinging about a decision that could have (should have) given them the series. i'm starting to wonder if i wrote the script in a parallel universe.

as a postscript, hate to be the next side the all blacks play. oh whoops, that is us. we'll be massacred.

also, dan carter plays that series and the all blacks win 3-0. comfortably. barrett is not carter's bootlace. and even if he turns into something brilliant with time, this is a series he'll never get back.

gatland for next coach of the all blacks? oh if only we could poach him (and 15 of their players).

I think Joe Smidt will get the next AB's job, I much more running rugby coach, Gatlands name has been too tarnished by wrongful detractors. He's played a game plan for Wales built around Jamie Roberts for the last 8yrs (tagged Warrenball), quite simply because thats the very best option he had with a very very small pool of players. I think he's a wonderful pragmatist, and in time I hope people give him the respect his CV commands . 

What did you think of the 100cap Kieran Ried fan fair at the end Ken?  did you think its was intended for a arrogantly expected win? I thought is was painfully cringeworthy. 

I think the Aussies should get their claws into Vern Cotter.

[99call]

32 minutes ago, toofargone said:

It was a bit of a boring game  ties shouldn't be allowed... keep playing till there is a winner!

I don't think anyone could consider that to be a boring game?? I agree with the tie, 100% of the players on the pitch wanted an extra 10mins. Please go though, not a penalty kick show down. Cardiff Blues v Leicester Tigers was brutal. Seeing a prop, kick for sticks is painful

[David88]

Well I definitely didn't see that coming, particularly after the first 4 warm up games. Barrett is definitely no carter at 10, I wonder if this will make NZ look at their options there now. 

As a lions supporter, if you had offered me a drawn series before the tour I would have snapped your hands off. Plus it's always nice to hear some New Zealand whining at the ref for the decision at the end! I'm glad one of these decisions went against them for a change

[Ken Gargett]

10 hours ago, 99call said:

What did you think of the 100cap Kieran Ried fan fair at the end Ken?  did you think its was intended for a arrogantly expected win? I thought is was painfully cringeworthy.

didn't see it. switched off after the game. but reid is a terrific player.

my fave non-playing moment yesterday was the lions fan who had written across his forehead - "LOINS". those mirrors can be tricky.

 

[99call]

17 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

didn't see it. switched off after the game. but reid is a terrific player.

my fave non-playing moment yesterday was the lions fan who had written across his forehead - "LOINS". those mirrors can be tricky.

 

Yep, I can agree on that, great player, and seems like a good bloke too. Was very awkward to see Reid and Warburton with the cup. There was a moment, (with a hand on the cup each, after lifting it aloft) where they look at each other and go "what the hell do we do now".

V-funny re, the "LOINS" spot. The only thing I spotted in the crowd, was two female lions fans in red wigs, that seem to have been ushered into snogging each other by the camera man. Very odd, but not wholly unpleasant!

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, 99call said:

Yep, I can agree on that, great player, and seems like a good bloke too. Was very awkward to see Reid and Warburton with the cup. There was a moment, (with a hand on the cup each, after lifting it aloft) where they look at each other and go "what the hell do we do now".

V-funny re, the "LOINS" spot. The only thing I spotted in the crowd, was two female lions fans in red wigs, that seem to have been ushered into snogging each other by the camera man. Very odd, but not wholly unpleasant!

yep, saw them. i thought they were about to go a lot further.