The glory that is the British & Irish Lions!....Bring on the All Blacks!

[JohnS]

I think the last time the All Blacks lost at home was against South Africa in 2009. I'm with Ken, I don't like the British and Irish Lions chances. Still, you did win in 1971 and I cling to the Wallabies winning a series in New Zealand in 1986.

[gweilgi]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i must say that you have a much higher opinion of healey as a player than anyone i've ever met - or perhaps i should say anyone from south of the equator. we always thought he was a moderately talented, at best, tosser.

but that might be a fine example of the last word and costing your team the ultimate prize. i believe that was the tour where it was 1-1 going into the 3rd game. wallabies had a narrow lead as we hit full time and the lions had a lineout on the wallabies line. the entire world knew johnson was calling for a drive to take the lions over for a try to win the series. eales apparently called for no challenge in the lineout but all on deck to try and repel the lions forwards. harrison was apparently still pissed by the lions and especially that tosser healey (who, i think, had come out in the press that week and called him a plonker?), so he decided bugger that and pinched the lineout throw and the wallabies won the series. i believe that may have been mentioned to healey on numerous subsequent occasions.

So that particular bit of sledging may have come back to bite us on our white arses on that occasion, but let's not forget that this is a practice that *Australians* specialise in...

 

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i should also say that notwithstanding visiting a game in nz can be entering the pits of hell, the way a large percentage carry on, i have many very close kiwi mates who act nothing like that.

good to see the northern hemisphere getting in a little early whinging - yes, i know what you all said. but as someone who would rather see both lose i can sit back and watch with impartiality.

The recent successes of the England team notwithstanding (we imported an Aussie to show us the way, so I reckon they don't count), there are generally speaking three stages to sports in Britain:

1.  We invent the sport.

2. We export the sport to the ends of the Earth.

3. We lose to everyone.

 

By now, we have become quite used to it....

 

[Ken Gargett]

7 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

So that particular bit of sledging may have come back to bite us on our white arses on that occasion, but let's not forget that this is a practice that *Australians* specialise in...

 

The recent successes of the England team notwithstanding (we imported an Aussie to show us the way, so I reckon they don't count), there are generally speaking three stages to sports in Britain:

1.  We invent the sport.

2. We export the sport to the ends of the Earth.

3. We lose to everyone.

 

By now, we have become quite used to it....

 

if i may say, from my experience living in the UK, you forgot the fourth stage.

4. british press rips into its own players/coaches in a manner which would leave an outsider thinking that they are worse than hitler.

as for sledging, it is possible that aussies may have on occasion indulged in a little harmless sledging, but i would venture to say that we are no better or worse than any other team/country. with the exception that our moronic tennis players of today (certainly not the lavers, rafters, newcombes, rosewalls etc) attempt to take sledging to new lows but are unfathomably bad at it.

what disappoints me about sledging today is that it has become nasty instead of funny. in the old days, there might have been the edge to it and undoubtedly the intention to inflict mental disintegration present (and really, if you can't handle it, should you be an international sportsman?), but it was usually amusing. ian healy was an endless sledger but often very funny - some of the lines about that dreadful ranatunga were classics - warnie unable to get him to leave his crease so healy yelling out, put a mars bar on a good length, he'll be out there in a flash. and a few that can't be repeated here.

[gweilgi]

15 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

if i may say, from my experience living in the UK, you forgot the fourth stage.

4. british press rips into its own players/coaches in a manner which would leave an outsider thinking that they are worse than hitler.

That is quite true, alas.  Our media -- especially the red-tops -- are about as forbearing, gracious and restrained as a herd of sharks in a feeding frenzy.  

 

15 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

as for sledging, it is possible that aussies may have on occasion indulged in a little harmless sledging, but i would venture to say that we are no better or worse than any other team/country. with the exception that our moronic tennis players of today (certainly not the lavers, rafters, newcombes, rosewalls etc) attempt to take sledging to new lows but are unfathomably bad at it.

I think the word you were groping for here is "Kyrgios"....

 

15 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

what disappoints me about sledging today is that it has become nasty instead of funny. in the old days, there might have been the edge to it and undoubtedly the intention to inflict mental disintegration present (and really, if you can't handle it, should you be an international sportsman?), but it was usually amusing. ian healy was an endless sledger but often very funny - some of the lines about that dreadful ranatunga were classics - warnie unable to get him to leave his crease so healy yelling out, put a mars bar on a good length, he'll be out there in a flash. and a few that can't be repeated here.

In the old days?  As in, perhaps, the "Ugly Australians" of '74-'75?  And let's not forget Merv Hughes -- undoubtedly a great cricketer, but his sledging did cross the line a bit too often to be merely harmless or amusing.  Just my tuppence, of course...

[David88]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

if i may say, from my experience living in the UK, you forgot the fourth stage.

4. british press rips into its own players/coaches in a manner which would leave an outsider thinking that they are worse than hitler.

as for sledging, it is possible that aussies may have on occasion indulged in a little harmless sledging, but i would venture to say that we are no better or worse than any other team/country. with the exception that our moronic tennis players of today (certainly not the lavers, rafters, newcombes, rosewalls etc) attempt to take sledging to new lows but are unfathomably bad at it.

what disappoints me about sledging today is that it has become nasty instead of funny. in the old days, there might have been the edge to it and undoubtedly the intention to inflict mental disintegration present (and really, if you can't handle it, should you be an international sportsman?), but it was usually amusing. ian healy was an endless sledger but often very funny - some of the lines about that dreadful ranatunga were classics - warnie unable to get him to leave his crease so healy yelling out, put a mars bar on a good length, he'll be out there in a flash. and a few that can't be repeated here.

Let's not forget the pre-tournament build up to make out the team are world beaters and almost guaranteed a semi / final place before this.

I love sledging but it is losing the good humoured aspect to it. I suppose that as professionalism becomes embedded in sport this is to be (sadly) expected.

With regards to Austin Healey, I don't think anyone in England truly rated him as a top class player. He was good in a number of positions but was outstanding in none, in my opinion. He was and still is a bit of a personality though.

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, gweilgi said:

That is quite true, alas.  Our media -- especially the red-tops -- are about as forbearing, gracious and restrained as a herd of sharks in a feeding frenzy.  

 

I think the word you were groping for here is "Kyrgios"....

 

In the old days?  As in, perhaps, the "Ugly Australians" of '74-'75?  And let's not forget Merv Hughes -- undoubtedly a great cricketer, but his sledging did cross the line a bit too often to be merely harmless or amusing.  Just my tuppence, of course...

merv was a big lovable old oaf. my fave merv sledge was when miandad started abusing him, called him a fat bus conductor. merv cleaned him up a few balls later and as he walked past him, back to the pavillion, "tickets please".

[Ken Gargett]

here are some classics.

the one missing was some ordinary english cricketer. mark waugh had a real crack at him as he came out to bat. the bloke turned around and looked at waugh. "i might be s*** but at lest i am the best cricketer in my family".

a few of these might be attributed to others (chappelli instead of marsh). the mars bar one was runatunga, i'm certain.

 

Classic cricket sledges

1. Trueman and Aussie batsman
In an England v Australia Test during early 1960's Trueman was fielding close to the gate from the pavilion. As a new batsman came out he turned to shut the gate, Trueman said "Don't bother son, you won't be out there long enough."

2. Rod Marsh and Ian Botham.
When Botham took guard in a Ashes match, Marsh welcomed him to the wicket with the immortal words: "So how's your wife and my kids?"

3. Daryll Cullinan and Shane Warne.
As Cullinan was on his way to the wicket, Warne told him he had been waiting 2 years for another chance to humiliate him. "Looks like you spent it eating," Cullinan retorted.

4. Adam Parore and Daryll Cullinan.
Because Cullinan is well known for being Warne's bunny, New Zealand keeper Parore greeted the South African, carefully playing the first ball from kiwi Chris Harris, with a cry of: "Bowled Warnie!"

5 . Robin Smith and Merv Hughes.
During 1989 Lords Test Hughes said to Smith after he played and missed: "You can't f***ing bat". Smith to Hughes after he smacked him to the boundary: "Hey Merv, we make a fine pair. I can't f***ing bat and you can't f***ing bowl.".

6. Merv Hughes and Viv Richards.
During a test match in the West Indies Hughes didn't say a word to Viv, but continued to stare at him after deliveries. "This is my island, my culture. Don't you be staring at me. In my culture we just bowl." Merv didn't reply, but after he dismissed him he announced to the batsman: "In my culture we just say f*** off."

7. Ricky Ponting and Shaun Pollock.
After going past the outside edge with a couple of deliveries, Pollock told Ponting: "It's red, round and weighs about five ounces. "Unfortunately for Pollock, the next ball was hammered out of the ground. Ponting to Pollock: "you know what it looks like, now go find it."

8. And of course you can't forget Ian Healy's legendary comment which was picked up by the Channel 9 microphones when Arjuna Ranatunga called for a runner on a particularly hot night during a one dayer in Sydney... "You don't get a runner for being an overweight, unfit, fat c***!!!"
(crow??)

9. In one of the tour matches in South Africa, Australia played Hansie Cronje's province. Cronje was at the non strikers end, there was a short chubby batsman on strike. Ian Healy yelled to Warne, (I think) "Bowl a Mars Bar half way down...We'll get him stumped" The Aussies and Cronje were all in hysterics. the batsman's retort: "Nah, Boonie fielding at short leg will be onto it before I can move."

10. Glen McGrath & Eddo Brandes
 Glenn McGrath asked Eddo Brandes how come he was so fat. Brandes replied "because every time I f*** your wife she gives me a biscuit".

[99call]

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i must say that you have a much higher opinion of healey as a player than anyone i've ever met - or perhaps i should say anyone from south of the equator. we always thought he was a moderately talented, at best, tosser.

but that might be a fine example of the last word and costing your team the ultimate prize. i believe that was the tour where it was 1-1 going into the 3rd game. wallabies had a narrow lead as we hit full time and the lions had a lineout on the wallabies line. the entire world knew johnson was calling for a drive to take the lions over for a try to win the series. eales apparently called for no challenge in the lineout but all on deck to try and repel the lions forwards. harrison was apparently still pissed by the lions and especially that tosser healey (who, i think, had come out in the press that week and called him a plonker?), so he decided bugger that and pinched the lineout throw and the wallabies won the series. i believe that may have been mentioned to healey on numerous subsequent occasions.

i should also say that notwithstanding visiting a game in nz can be entering the pits of hell, the way a large percentage carry on, i have many very close kiwi mates who act nothing like that.

good to see the northern hemisphere getting in a little early whinging - yes, i know what you all said. but as someone who would rather see both lose i can sit back and watch with impartiality.

the scrums are a blight on the game and the northern hemisphere do take them more seriously but not to the extent you suggest.

the kiwis are world champions when it comes to influencing a ref, but if you can get away with it, why not? sir clive was not bad. not sure we have had better than gregan (cam smith in league) but he was not in the class of mccaw or fitzpatrick (who off the field is the most genuinely decent human you could hope to meet).

the scrums are killing the game here, amongst numerous other reasons, not least the most truly inept group of administrators any sport has ever had inflicted on them). if one is called in super rugby, you know that 5 out of 6 times, it will be reset. they'll move it, try again. it will collapse and they'll speak to the front rows. a nightmare. so much time lost to this. if rugby and league are on at the same time, as soon as a scrum called, flick to the league and you can comfortably watch a set of 6 tackles and then go back to the league and you'll have missed nothing. any wonder rugby is losing people here in droves (well, i'm not sure that they still have enough supporters to continue to lose them in droves - more dribs and drabs of the remaining few). i could also talk about the skill level between the games, not just in origin but compare basic club games to so-called rugby internationals and super rugby outside the kiwis. league is streets ahead. this season, for the first time in forty years, i am not bothering to go to rugby games (and i have a 30 year ticket so cost has nothing to do with it). why, when you can watch a far better game of league on tv. or take up knitting.

 

Ha,   No I was not necessarily putting Austin up their as a great player, more of a cancerous turd, that we all love to hate (especially his own team mates). It was a great punch and judy show of English and Australian characatures. 

You're points on the scrum I see as pretty sad and defeatist. There was nothing wrong with it for many many years, until a few broken necks (which are still happening in the modern adaptation) caused all this time wasting.  The issue is, is that stability and instability is part and parcel of winning or losing, and the refs are trying to turn something, that by it's very nature, isn't safe, into something that is safe.

Here in the NH we would be happy to take pretty much all the referring away from the scrum. The only laws should be, if a defending team is in their own 5metre area, and they fail to hold a scrum up on 3 occasions, its a penalty try. The other law should be penalising crocked feeds, and thats that.  Even a week scrum has the opportunity to compete, if their hooker is talented enough, and there is much more potential benefit of staying in the competition.  Nobody wants to see reset scrums and props sent off. It's just pressure to make the game risk free, thats destroying it, not the actual mechanics, or the spectacle of the scrum itself. 

You are right though, you have effectively voted with your bottom, and by refusing to go to games,  hopefully the pockets of the clubs, and the game itself will hurt to point of going. "sh*t, maybe we've tried to fix, something that wasn't broken". Ultimately, I don't think great rugby union has mass appeal, but whats wrong with that!?, surely there is room enough outside of football, for a game of complexity to survive. I think 7s rugby is doing well enough to cater for fans who have simple tastes, and don't have to actually understand the rules to follow it.

Ultimately, the death of great game of rugby union saddens me in parallel to many things in society. It's like watching people take selfies as a Holocaust memorial, you just think "f*ck me!, this is the majority of my fellow humans on this earth, I am the odd one out, not these brainless gimps".

[99call]

Never seen any footage of him playing, but Paddy Mayne (British Lions 1938) sounds like some bloke!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

[99call]

Good lord, I hope theres a bit more on field unity and class than their off field choir,,,,, Like a drowning bag of cats.     Lovely jackets though!!!

 

[99call]

Bugger!!!!,   Cant help but think Rob Howley at the helm of the Lions attack is going to cost us the tour.   

I have no idea why the Lions just didn't maul and scrum the Blues off the park. I realise it's considered the most boring form of the gain, but for god sake if you good at something.......just do it! 

Pen count way to high.  Fair play to the Blues, you could see where the cracks were, but their offloading ability and broken field play was pretty snazzy. 

I still back the boys, but good lord, I think this is going to be the hardest tour in sporting history.

[Ken Gargett]

18 minutes ago, 99call said:

Bugger!!!!,   Cant help but think Rob Howley at the helm of the Lions attack is going to cost us the tour.  

I still back the boys, but good lord, I think this is going to be the hardest tour in sporting history.

no offence but i really don't think that will be the only reason.

and yes, those five star resorts and flying pointy end must be hell. it might however, be the hardest lions tour as far as their fans go.

looking forward to seeing the 2nd test but i think it will be pretty much a foregonme conclusion.

[99call]

haha, as long as you find it interesting enough to follow Ken, thats enough. 

I the only upshot of this test for me, was Itoje and Lawes looked great in the lineout, and Mcgrath and Cole, looked like they could drop their opposite numbers at will in the scrum.

Other than that, frequent shalackings could be imminent.  For what it's worth I hope this gives them a bit of steel, and move forward in an upward trajectory 

[99call]

11 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

no offence but i really don't think that will be the only reason.

and yes, those five star resorts and flying pointy end must be hell. it might however, be the hardest lions tour as far as their fans go.

looking forward to seeing the 2nd test but i think it will be pretty much a foregonme conclusion.

Here's a nice bit of sledging for you to enjoy Ken, Nice thinking on his feet from Fitzy

 

[JohnS]

The Barbarians match had a full-strength Lions outfit and they won 13-7 and tonight they were outscored three tries to one in a 22-16 loss to the Blues. I hope the Lions have a change in form very soon as I would prefer a competitive series.

[99call]

2 minutes ago, JohnS said:

The Barbarians match had a full-strength Luons outfit and they won 13-7 and tonight they were outscored three tries to one in a 22-16 loss to the Blues. I hope the Lions have a change in form very soon as I would prefer a competitive series.

Hhmm I would suggest only 40 to 50% of that 1st team will play in the 1st test

[99call]

I think it's going to be pretty tough for you boys to enjoy, as I think the Lions will just default to set piece rugby, and even if they win, they win playing a style of rugby that you guys think of as being crap. 

Personally i would love it, if it was a perfect storm of running rugby verses brute pick and drive force. time will tell

[David88]

I think the lions have got the coaching set up wrong and their style of play is not suited to the sides they will meet. Blues were deserved winners today.

It pains me to say it but I would not be surprised if the lions did not win another game on the tour unless there is a serious turn around. 

[JohnS]

40 minutes ago, 99call said:

Hhmm I would suggest only 40 to 50% of that 1st team will play in the 1st test

Agreed, that's a good plan. I can accept jet-lag as a reason for the Barbarians performance but the Lions lost to the Blues, who incidentally can't make the Super XVIII finals this year and thus must be considered the weakest New Zealand provincial team currently.

Now we can all acknowledge that England have been outstanding since the Rugby World Cup in 2015. They've won 18 times until their recent close loss to Ireland in the Six Nations in March. But England have not played New Zealand since 2014 and in fact they've only won once against the All Blacks since their Clive Woodward/Jonny Wilkinson/Martin Johnson-inspired 2003 World Cup winning performances.

What I'm saying is this; the current full-strength England team would struggle in New Zealand in my opinion, let alone the British and Irish Lions. So here are the choices: face reality, stop making excuses and using shallow clichés to be competitive or excuse these performances and face getting thrashed in the tests 3-0.

 

[Rustyman]

50 minutes ago, 99call said:

I think it's going to be pretty tough for you boys to enjoy, as I think the Lions will just default to set piece rugby, and even if they win, they win playing a style of rugby that you guys think of as being crap. 

Personally i would love it, if it was a perfect storm of running rugby verses brute pick and drive force. time will tell

I would love to see a full on clash of cultures.  Each team doing what it does best and the one who executes best wins.

Despite opinions to the contrary, I hope the Lions just decide to do what they do best.  Play 10 man rugby concentrating on set plays and force NZ to take chances to break through.  In fact, I think it is the only way the Lions has any hope as they really do not have dynamic backs.

[Rustyman]

17 minutes ago, David88 said:

I think the lions have got the coaching set up wrong and their style of play is not suited to the sides they will meet. Blues were deserved winners today.

It pains me to say it but I would not be surprised if the lions did not win another game on the tour unless there is a serious turn around. 

I still think the Lions win at one Test largely because the NZ is thin in the backrow and centres.  At least for the first couple of tests.

[99call]

15 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Agreed, that's a good plan. I can accept jet-lag as a reason for the Barbarians performance but the Lions lost to the Blues, who incidentally can't make the Super XVIII finals this year and thus must be considered the weakest New Zealand provincial team currently.

Now we can all acknowledge that England have been outstanding since the Rugby World Cup in 2015. They've won 18 times until their recent close loss to Ireland in the Six Nations in March. But England have not played New Zealand since 2014 and in fact they've only won once against the All Blacks since their Clive Woodward/Jonny Wilkinson/Martin Johnson-inspired 2003 World Cup winning performances.

What I'm saying is this; the current full-strength England team would struggle in New Zealand in my opinion, let alone the British and Irish Lions. So here are the choices: face reality, stop making excuses and using shallow clichés to be competitive or excuse these performances and face getting thrashed in the tests 3-0.

 

Completely agree, Ultimately flight schedualing (things like stopping off in Melbourne for Quantas sponsorship) was in the power of the Lions to decide. Every element of a tour like this is crucial, and if they're going to winge about jet-lag, well hmm, they had the choice to avoid that, but they didn't. 

There was a period of pick and drive in the first half, that looked like the lions were just going to shunt it over the line, but they didn't, they adopted the Welsh model, and took the opportunity to try and spread it wide .....WRONG,   Like the England team of 2003, they should of just continued on. Gatland is in a bad mental place. He's has 3 solid years of people calling him and his team one dimensional, and starting to react badly to it.  This is exactly the time TO! be one dimensional. 

They need to truck it up the guts, until they cant stand it anymore, and the NZ teams mental space ceases to be focus on cutting counter attack, and they're just thinking "how do we stop this maul,?"   "Are we going to get a prop sent off?"  etc etc.    

 

[Ken Gargett]

13 hours ago, 99call said:

Here's a nice bit of sledging for you to enjoy Ken, Nice thinking on his feet from Fitzy

 

he certainly got the rob andrew bit right. for me, the most overrated player (outside of phibbs and knox) imaginable. at least jonny could also tackle.

[Ken Gargett]

12 hours ago, JohnS said:

 But England have not played New Zealand since 2014 and in fact they've only won once against the All Blacks since their Clive Woodward/Jonny Wilkinson/Martin Johnson-inspired 2003 World Cup winning performances.

and john, they did not play NZ in that world cup (and if i recall, the game at suncorp v wales, a quarter final - and spending a few hours in a pub pre game which was 95% poms and 5% welsh but the welsh outsang them, outchanted and generally left anyone within cooee thinking what a miserable lot of gits the poms were compared to the welsh which is possibly unfair but i have heritage from both, plus the scots - they were outscored three tries to one by the welsh but snuck home) and had flatley's kick not knicked the post, they would have done the decent english thing and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory but such is sport.

i should say for those who might be lumping me in with kiwi fans, i most certainly am not. three 0-0 draws would be ideal. i will gain no pleasure from a kiwi win, nor a lions. they are both the enemy. but looking forward to seeing the games.

[gweilgi]

Anyone care to comment on the utter insensitivity of the Blues performing a throat-slitting haka just after the London terror attack?  Whether you'll it a branding exercise or an inclusive expression of culture, they really needn't have pulled a shitty stunt like that.