The Noob Thread I Never Read.. On Cuban Cigars..

[Ethernut]

24 minutes ago, PrairieSmoke said:

As a CC noob this thread has been very freeing. The passion are CCs definitely crosses into mythical/mystical and this helps me keep my feet on the ground.


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Yes!! ^^^^^^^^

Exactly what I want for those interested. So glad you found value.

[fastkiller13]

So glad this post got bumped up or I may have missed all this great info. Thanks @Ethernut for putting this together. I would also second, or third that we are lucky to have this website and 24:24. I'm still a noob and have picked up a couple boxes from 24:24 and I will say that I find Rob's descriptions to be really accurate. What I have found to be the most useful is his comments as to how much time down the cigars need, I can't say much about his long term suggestions but when he says something like just smoke em, or no down time needed I've found the cigars to be great. Which makes me wish I could stock up on something the RG Asia Pacific he says will be a great in 3-5 yrs. 

Anyways thanks to all the "old timers" for sharing with us noobs and thanks to the guys and girls who run this place. I know I'd have given up on CC's if I hadn't found this site. 

~Ted 

[PabloJr]

Def gonna read thru this tonite. Thank you for your efforts.

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[Ethernut]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:37 AM, PabloJr said:

Def gonna read thru this tonite. Thank you for your efforts.

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Any questions I can answer? Hope it helped make sense and wade the waters a bit.

[nvrp813]

On 9/10/2016 at 9:19 PM, Ethernut said:

Ignore the Marca's (Brands) completely (as that's marketing drawing you in) and to some extent the Vitola's (Size) and focus on the flavor profile.

This is some of the best advice you can give someone new to cigars.  If only someone told me this years ago I could have saved tons of money.  Thank you @Ethernut for this wonderful guide!

[Ethernut]

On 3/1/2018 at 4:33 PM, nvrp813 said:

This is some of the best advice you can give someone new to cigars.  If only someone told me this years ago I could have saved tons of money.  Thank you @Ethernut for this wonderful guide!

Very kind @nvrp813! Thanks!

[THEMISCHMAN]

Great thread as others have said. I enjoy reading the knowledge from the members here who have much more experience than I. I also like the lack of ego/elitism when it comes to answering questions from those of us who are new to this. Being new to the world of Cubans I have been purchasing some brands (marcas) that I have enjoyed cigars from and have been picking up some that I have not tried. It goes without saying that the whole flavor profile to a CC is completely different from NC. I think my tastes have changed and that accounts for me enjoying/appreciating CC’s more than my NC stock lately. Thank you to all the members who share their knowledge and experiences and make this a great forum.

[Ethernut]

Added section on Custom Rolls / Farm Rolls to the Original Post. Thank you @Jimmy_jack for the idea!

Jimmy_Jacks thread

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/topic/134640-why-are-farm-rolls-different/

[Ethernut]

3 hours ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Great addition with the section on Custom Rolls/Farm Rolls.

Thank you sir!

[PhilthyOchoUno]

This is a great post! thanks Eathernut!

[Ethernut]

1 hour ago, juri said:

the gambling analogy is close but its more like poker, if you are just buying boxes in the dark then yeah it is, but with good info and putting in enough time in to know how the game is played you can come out on top

...and the exact point I’m making. You can increase your probability of success beyond chance by doing that very thing. Rob helps with that tremendously!

[HopeUgood]

And today I learned something new that may save me much time and money, thank you for this.  Just got back from Mexico where I made myself a sampler at La Casa De Habanos. I felt somewhat confident that I could just buy a box of my favorite and start, which coincidently was the ERDM Choix Supreme. To be fair, I did enjoy every cigar I smoked, just some more than others. I will be utilizing the 24:24, and probably picking up another sampler or three.  I also sometimes "purge" my cigars by blowing out and noticed that  the next puff would be different in flavor at times, more desirable. When I would be running low on time sometimes I would smoke the cigar more aggressively towards the end and it would have almost like a burnt rubber taste, I guess that is what you call ammonia.  My ADD self came here looking to find out what "mongrel" means in the cigar subtext, so that search shall continue now....

[inter4alia]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:06 AM, PhilthyOchoUno said:

This is a great post! thanks Eathernut!

Ditto!  As a CC newbie, this post has been a great education and also a wallet-saver.  Many thanks.

[slowsmoke]

Really great info for someone like me, and really well written at that. Thank you to Ethernut. And to the guy who bumped this two year old thread!

[Ericbrobes]

Great post, alot of great info!

[hunterbeav]

Here's the advice I never received when I started this journey over 10 years ago... Ready?  

On Buying Your Cigars 

1. "There really is no cigar better than the other." There, I said it. Ok, Ok, let me bring some clarity now that the natives are restless and beating on my door with pitchforks and shovels. There are 2 things happening in Cigars and really only two things. Marketing and Tobacco. Truth is (IMHO) that it's nearly impossible to get the exact. same. leaf. year after year. A CoRo box *will* be different in different times of the year due to the Tobacco available. To say Cohiba (as an example of a flag-ship) is the gold standard is a difficult statement frankly. I would say a truer statement might be that Cohiba "attempts" to be the gold standard (and in many cases perhaps has dibs on some of the better leaf catering to their profile but absolutely not always). 

2. No one can tell you what Cigar you like. Sorry but it's true. Reviews are subjective at best, careful of that trap! My most memorable cigars (as a ratio) haven't been Cohiba. One of my least memorable cigars was a Cohiba Esplenditos (most likely due to the expense versus perceived value of experience returned). My most memorable cigars for the profile *I* prefer have been unabashedly Diplomaticos and Bolivar. Each brand (Marca) "attempts" to hit a certain profile, best they can with the leaf available to them. Frankly that's the best they can do. There are many factories getting different Volado, Ligero and Seco tobacco and it's up to the blenders to make the most of what they get that month or year. That leaf is then broken up and separated to give to the rollers. Heck, it's even hard to match a factory with specific quality month after month. Which is why we focus on Factory, Month, Year most often.

It's all about probability... We're making a value decision about every thing we do, especially with purchases. We make a purchase because we've, for the most part, made the value decision that the money we'll trade for an item would provide some return equivalent or better than the money we exchanged for it. For us here at FOH, it's Cigars. Anyone want to buy a box of crappy cigars for $200? No? Why not? Because it doesn't make sense to spend significant money for such a poor return. Guess what, you *will*, no matter what you do, buy cigars you're not impressed with. ..and age may not fix it.. To top that off, your preferences will change and thus what you like this decade may not be the same the next. The REAL question for you is, "How do I increase my probably of quality every time I trade my hard-earned money for a Cigar?" In a sense, buying cigars is kinda like gambling (just a little) especially when you buy from vendors that don't give two rips about you, your experience or know what you like (and that's *real* gambling y'all). When you're gambling, then the questions you HAVE to ask, that is, if you want to win, is this, "How to I ensure the house doesn't always win? How do I get the advantage?" More on that below -

Ever wonder why one cigar in a box will be a cracker and another won't? Here's the answer (click the video), the cigars in your box are not necessarily from the exact same tobacco sorting. Watch the lady sort the cigars. Here's a brief version of what has happened up to that point. The factory received a ton of leaf, it is split up by type (Volado, Ligero and Seco) and given to the rollers to take that crap-ton of leaf and make the box-pressed body of the cigar which includes a predetermined ratio of the 3 leaves (or Primings) of the filler and binders. They are sent to another group and tested for draw during the roughly 30 minute box pressing. The box press is turned once to reduce the box press pattern during that timeframe. That bunch still needs a wrapper and those wrappers are applied to the bunched cigars by the rollers (Rolero's). Once rolled, they are sent to a sorter to match the wrapper color's so the box you receive has cigars that all look the same. Like a shiny tin of sardines.. Watch the lady and see how it's done, see her take a bunch of cigars full of tobacco from likely the same bunch and separate them in to 68, count'em, 68 different color shades. This is exactly why some in a box are crackers and some are not. Straight up, your box of Cigars are most likely not from the same run/seam of tobacco. They will vary. Nothing you can do about that. Welcome to the mysterious world of Cuban Habano's!

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Getting the advantage... (from above) If you're new to this, my very best advice to you is this. Buy a couple samplers. Buy the cigars from Robs Rotation

. Let them rest and be objective. Take _great_ notes while smoking. Once you develop your favorite profile then read how Rob describes the profiles on the 24:24's. Ignore the Marca's (Brands) completely (as that's marketing drawing you in) and to some extent the Vitola's (Size) and focus on the flavor profile. When you find the profiles you like, BUY *THAT* BOX.  This is more if a surgeons approach than a "pray and spray" (dollars) approach. Once you learn to recognize the profiles you like and ignore the Marca's and Vitola's you're increasing your probability of success.  FOH has something unique. A pack a wild, rabid, throbbing, frothing cigar experts with Rob as the pack alpha possessing wicked-accurate palates to help us navigate the ever changing waters of "who received the best leaf". It's that experience to draw on and ignore nearly everything else. Your journey will be less expensive, and less fraught with poor experiences. Remember, when you buy a cigar, it's literally money you're going to set on fire. Increase your probability of success buy riding the coat tails of identified consistency. Robs team profiles the cigars for you for free then sells you his very best boxes at sale prices in a 24:24. What, wait, seriously? What kind of crazy value is that?!?! No wonder FOH has been so successful. Capitalistic altruism at its finest! 

Smoking your Cigars....

Keep the relative Humidity between 60% and 65%. Rob likes low to mid 60's RH for the Cigars he's smoking in the near-term and higher for Cigars that he's aging. His Online Humidor is at 64% humidity and happens to be where he keeps many of his Cigars. My Humidor is at 60% RH these days, that's where I want it. Smoking experience elevated 100%.

Smoke smart. Many of the cigars that disappointed me in the early years were *very* likely so because I was smoking them wrong.. You might be doing it wrong.. The key to getting the most from the Cigar is to smoke slooooooowly. Only drag once per puff cycle, and drag slowly (to minimize heating up the cigar). Play a game where you puff just once before the cigar is about to hit the point of no return of extinguishing itself. There's an art to this, learn the rhythm. The mistakes noobs make is they puff puff puff PUFF like we see in the movies and heat the tobacco up so much that the hot smoke compounds on itself quickly within the body of the cigar making the cigar last perhaps to the end of the first third before it goes to ammonia. For me, once it hits ammonia, I'm out. Out it goes and I'm a little pissed because frankly I want to nub every cigar to get the full value from it, if I only get to the end of the first third before it goes to mierda, I only enjoyed 1/3rd of its potential value. From time to time if your cigar starts to get a little mean, blow through it to expel (purge) hot smoke. This helps me often once I've over puffed to help the cigar settle down. I do a long breath through the cigar and let it sit to cool down for a minute or two. It's a neat trick and has helped my experience tremendously.  

On Aging your Cigars..

...and since I've been shooting you straight, how 'bout another #TorpedoOfTruth in rapid fire Gatling Gun fashion. Ready? Brace yourself...

1. Aging may not fix your crappy cigar... [explosion] BOOM!
2. Aging isn't always better [next explosion] BOOM BOOOM! ("...oh gawd the humanity! please make it stop!")
3. Don't get sucked into thinking that aged, somehow, is the holy grail. (but it can be)
4. Buying Vintage Stock does not guarantee an exceptional experience.
5. An older cigar may actually _lose_ some of what made it special and become one dimensional. See ElPresidente's example of this here: 
6. A young cigar may be at its peak inside of 3 years and a crappy cigar may never peak, or, rather, peak to your satisfaction.

 

The only way for me to really explain the #TorpedosOfTruth skewered above is using a whiskey age curve as that's how I picture it in my head. See below, I created this just fer ya! look at the green line. The green line represents maturity and as whiskey ages it peaks and enters a range of where the master distiller intends for the profile he is creating. Many people think that the more age something has, the better it is, and that is dead-nuts wrong. The Taste vector on the left is translated as "Your Experience" (or Net Complexity) and vector at the bottom is translated as "Aging time". Now, here's the kicker for whiskey, especially bourbon is considered fully matured (the point where vanillas and caramels begin to fully develop) between 6 and 12 years. For many master distillers thats the "sweet spot". Consider that sweet spot range below at the peak as that span of time, 6-12 years. Beyond 12 years some flavors, yes disireable flavors (as the barrel does not discrimiate) will wane and other flavors like heavy oak tannin/acrid profiles will emerge. Too much time in the barrel will result in whiskey that can be very tannin laced, uncomplex, and quite undesireable. 

 

 

Cigars are no different. There is a "sweet spot" where they're at their best and over time they will lose certain characteristics then gain others. Cream if you will is one of the more common profiles that tends to build with age, but at the expense of other subtile profiles thus reducing the net complexity of the smoking experience. The vector of taste versus time does not universally look like this below.. Once folks understand this, the better their experience will be and the less expensive their journey will be. My advice remains the same, listen to folks that KNOW cigars.. If they are saying the Vintage Stock is good, buy it, if not, don't. I have 2001 ERDM Choix that has disappointed me every time I've had one. and I have 03 Des Dieux that are amazing but starting to lose some of their cedar profile that I loved about them when I purchased them. 

 

 

See point #2 at the very top of this post. No one can tell you what you like. The onus is on _you_ to profile your cigars as they age, find the peak and enjoy them during that time. This is the real trick of being an amazing cigar herder. Yes, you're a herder, you have a herd of stock that'll be mature at different times. Be a good herder, not a bad herder. ;-)

 

Buying Aged Stock versus Aging Your Own

Since you're still a noob you're going to see a ton of reviews from guys with 10 plus year old cigars? Theres only two ways that happens. 

1. They bought/bartered them with age
2. They aged them themselves

Looking back, and if I had it to do over, I probably wouldn't spend much extra to buy Vintage Stock (aged beyond 5 years). Cuba releases stock from their Vintage Program each year and it's simply stock they've set aside for 5 years. As far as I can tell (please please please someone correct me if I'm wrong), there isn't a ton of thought put into the stock they set aside. It isn't necessarily _always_ _bankably_ the very best version of that cigar from that time period. The Vintage Stock can be amazing and it can be disappointing. I've personally had it go both ways.

...here's what the smart money (the folks that actually need their money) do and here's the advice I'm going to offer... Age your own. You'll save between 20-40% per cigar to do so. At minimum get a stable humidor for Temp and RH and buy 2-3 times more Cigars than you can smoke over the course of a couple years and within 3 years, BOOM! you have aged stock. I know, I know.... Math. Is. Hard.. However, the persistence of time always wins (...aint that the truism of the day...) and you WILL have aged stock too that a new crop of noob's drool over.

Now I take that back if you're:

1. Wealthy enough that dropping between $10-20,000 per year on cigars is no big deal to you. Heck, buy the aged stock. It's pocket change baby!:dollarsign:
2. Not thinking you're going to be in the hobby for the long haul and are just curious what all the hoopla is about. By all means, buy a Vintage Box, checkout a Vintage Sampler (sometimes they appear) or better yet, after you've hung around for a while you'll find some gracious members that will be more than happy to share some aged stock with you. You wouldn't believe how many folks are willing to help out good folk!

 

On "The Sick Period" (Inspired by an FOH chat with [mention=30541]Isaac[/mention]) (added on 6-7-17)

The sick period - a mythological period of time where a cigar, during its aging cycle, enters an timeframe where it is unpleasant to smoke. The sick period can range from X time to Y time depending on who you speak to and after the sick period is over the cigar is once again smokeable (to some degree ranging from, good-to-go to a-freakingmazing)     Preface: this is an opinion, namely, mine.  Okay so I'm about to make someone mad. So I'm going go ahead and apologize.  Love all of ya though and you wouldn't expect anything less from me. I think the sick period is mostly BS and a mind-trick we play on ourselves. There is much fairy and unicorn farts in the culinary world. Culinary world? Just how does that apply here? It's only the world of putting high-end, mostly expensive things in our mouths for the purpose of tasting them (innuendo fully intended here). We buy expensive cigars and set them on fire to taste/experience them. Much is made on essence of safflower, pancakes, maple syrup, and pencil shaving types of ridiculous flavors. (Although I have personally have tasted pancakes ..and I'm kinda a nerd) Straight up, the sick period is not something I've truly experienced in my 20 years of cigar smoking. I'll tell you what I _have_ experienced, and that's sh***y tobacco. No amount of aging is gonna fix yer sh***y tobacco. Well, why is your tobacco sh***y? Because there's something wrong with it, either, it's poor leaf, fermented wrong, stored wrong, poorly blended and the list goes on. What's the most likely reason? Poor leaf/bad blend/bad ferment in my experience. Aging isn't gonna make chicken salad out of chicken crap (as I shared above). Get this concept, AGING CHANGES ALL THINGS. In cigars it will attenuate certain flavor profiles and expose others. This can work out in your favor and more often than not, after a long enough timeline you may have something smokeable (but you might not) I have a box of 2001 ERDM Choix Supreme from HSA's Vintage collection that I've never liked. Sick for 16 years? Nope. Crappy tobaccy? Yep. Straight up. In contrast I've had cigars made that very same year be revelatory needed zero age. I prefer that and so do you.   Jedi mind tricks... I think often because gents spent a bunch on the sticks, they want them to perform, to be the Belle of the Ball, to be a diamond in the rough and perhaps make a few jealous at their cigar aging skills... (The value equation) The sick period narrative provides an excuse to keep them in our humidor a long dang time in "hope" that one day the pumpkin will turn into a carriage and the maid will become a princess. ...now that I've written this very cathartic piece, I think I'll march right down to the humi and throw that damned ERDM box in the trash with shiny vintage sticker and all! "Off with yer head!"   On Farm Roll's / Custom Rolls   The conversation goes like this (figuratively in your mind..) [Handsome Stranger] "Psst!" [Emerging from the dark alley of the internet] [Handsome Stranger] "Hey man, [looks left and right to ensure privacy] have you ever smoked custom rolls? Wanna buy a few?"   Yeah, that's how we all get sucked into custom roll chasing.. As Morpheus said in The Matrix, "Were you looking at me or were you looking at the lady in the red dress?" Custom rolls are somehow the exact same thing or better than your favorite brand but simply unbanded. You'll want them because you cant get them very easily. Isn't that true with most things? Oh yes they're huge on the secondary market. Sticks costing $5 in Havana being sold for $15-20 per stick and the secondary market is happy to take your money... and guess what? They're rolled by some Cuban roller named XXXXX who is a level 9, struck out on his/her own now rolling better cigars than all of Havana from the safety of their little Casa de Tobacco generally within a Hotel in Havana.   Here's the deal. Custom rolls can be awesome. Those of us who have had plenty have had them go both ways. They can be awesome and they can be plugged or utterly boring little pieces of mierda.. You have to kind of know where they came from and if you're buying them in Havana you have fairly low risk as long as the Roller works for a hotel or Casa de Tobacco. The ones guys offer you on the street that have a "connection" are not worth your time. Keep in mind any cigar you buy in Cuba *is* technically a cuban cigar. But that doesn’t mean it's good. Customs can be awesome because they are different also. Don't expect a Custom Robusto to taste like a CoRo (but they might). The issues rollers have with customs is they are getting in most cases the bottom pick of the litter with Tobacco through their normal purchasing channels. Certain factories that roll prestigious brands (Marcas) get the first dibs. Do Custom Rollers have side/back channels? Of course they do! But they probably wont tell you. For the most part the Custom Roller wants to roll a solid cigar, good enough that you'll remember them, enjoy them and tell your friends about them. When in Cuba get a bunch or two, let them rest for 3-6 months as they will be very wet/green and give them a go. You'll likely be surprised.   Farm Rolls... Farm Rolls are Custom Rolls that are bought on a Tobacco Farm (Finca). I've had Farm Rolls, like custom rolls, be un-friggenbelieveable and I've had them be a let down. Depends on the Farm and leaf available to them. Not every roller at a finca knows what they're doing but it's a little slice of awesome to have a "freshie" right off the farm. I wont beguile you that experience, heck I encourage it. Know that it's likely due to the wetness/freshness of the cigar that it wont rock your world right then and there. Enjoy a farm roll in the moment. That's important. Likely that the experience you're having at the farm linked to that cigar will make the cigar perform well for you. But! Buy a few more. Take them home, drop them in the Humidor 3-6 months and then see what you've got. Like custom rolls, you might be surprised (and you might not). Enjoy!   

Q&A from (this thread)

Q "I am though, a little confused. If one shouldn't chase a marca or vitola, what is there left? And when I should buy *that box* how do I get more of *that box* when a) it is made up of many different roller's cigars, each with a unique, human-hand selected bunch of leaves that may have come from different farms or microclimates? And b ) I already have that box, therefore by logic, no more exist? Each box will be different even from the same Factory code and month"

A "This is a GREAT question and one I will lend more detail to. The *very* short answer is this. (for those that don't know) Marca is the brand and Vitola is the size/length/ring gauge. Some folks buy a "brand" and I think that's probably the strongest draw to the buying decision and others like Phat and Phallic or Long and Skinny cigars and that sways the buying decision. My approach is more of an agnostic one. I'll smoke any cigar as long as it's good, I *prefer* sub 42 ring cigars so my internal value scoring system will give higher points to that size. 

Now, to get closer to answering your question which is, essentially, "How do I know when to pull the trigger with all of the variables?" I've been crafting a post that I wanted to call "Robs Super Secret (not so secret) Code for the 24:24's." Rob describes the predominant and nuanced flavors in a cigar. Once a person has been through the sampler and taken great notes as to the flavors they sense, a pattern of preference will emerge. Not everyone can detect the same thing in a cigar from a nuanced flavor perspective but most can detect the predominant flavors. They can also detect the strength of the cigar. When Rob says "Montecristo cream" he's saying it's a cream bomb. Or if he described the primary flavors as "earthy leathery mongrel", it's typically a full strength cigar that may be a little less composed than many like, but some do like that. It's important to know what primary flavors and characteristics you like and see how he describes the cigars then shoot for the primary flavors you like and less so the brand or size. 

As for how one ensures you get an entire box of exactly what you wanted, truly you cant. About the best we can do is look at the factory/month/year and when Robs team profiles cigars from that timeframe we can be more certain that we've increased our probability of success beyond chance. The factories will get a huge shipment of, not random leaf, but leaf from certain farms so there are common threads of leaf that run through the cigars for that run of time."

_____________________________________

I'll update this post as things come to me. I welcome information I should add and will add it. These, of course are my opinions and there are A LOT of opinions. I hope this is just a little bit of light in the fog.. I'm not aware of too many things, but I know what I know (if you know what I mean)...

_____________________________________

 

Wow ty......I'm a noob to cc and this has opened my eyes to a lot of different angles on so much....

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[houdini]

?? SLOW CLAP. Thanks for bringing this post back up

[Ethernut]

7 hours ago, hunterbeav said:

Wow ty......I'm a noob to cc and this has opened my eyes to a lot of different angles on so much....

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That’s what this post was all about. Just to help new guys off the crazy train (and maybe help us veterans re-center when needed). Glad you found value! Cheers!

[JIK]

Thanks for the bump, this is pure Gold. 

[blakeLA]

5 hours ago, Ethernut said:

That’s what this post was all about. Just to help new guys off the crazy train (and maybe help us veterans re-center when needed). Glad you found value! Cheers!

I've read and re-read this thread.  It's such great information.  Really appreciate you taking the time to do this.  This forum is a great place to learn more and full of amazing resources.  One of the truly great things about 24:24 IMO is Rob's (accurate) grading system.  Especially when it comes to buying blind from somewhere halfway around the globe (whether that's Australia, or Benelux, or wherever you get shipments from), grading I feel is one of the most important things there is.  Even if I know a marca / vitola I love, getting a bad batch that I set down for a few years only to open up to disappointment is a nightmare.  Having great info like this thread, having access to lots of singles / samples to try as many flavor profiles as possible, and feeling confident that once you find things you like the quality of purchased boxes is worth setting them away for some aging time is a game changer.  There's always risk in this process, but there's a lot less if you follow some of the advice given here.

[RDB]

I’ve got one additional piece of advice for people (like me) who are getting more and more into cigars via FOH and 24:24, which is this:

Don’t obsess over PSP grade. First, the HQ are excellent. Second, the PSP are often particularly oily, and I bet they will often take quite a bit longer to mature. So if you’re buying to smoke now, they may not be better at all for that purpose.

[Puros Y Vino]

26 minutes ago, RDB said:

I’ve got one additional piece of advice for people (like me) who are getting more and more into cigars via FOH and 24:24, which is this:

Don’t obsess over PSP grade. First, the HQ are excellent. Second, the PSP are often particularly oily, and I bet they will often take quite a bit longer to mature. So if you’re buying to smoke now, they may not be better at all for that purpose.

And I'll add. Nothing wrong with PE grade either.  I find they smoke just as well or better.  

[blakeLA]

30 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

And I'll add. Nothing wrong with PE grade either.  I find they smoke just as well or better.  

I got a box of Lusis on clearance.  Not sure the grade as a result of that, but they were in fantastic shape.  Everything on 24:24 falls into one of Rob's top three grades, right?  Based on my limited experience, all three of those grades have been very solid.  I definitely wasn't trying to say PSP or bust is a mentality for everyone, just that it's really nice to have an extra level of trustworthy QC at the distribution level - and flying blind without that extra QC is a scary risk if you are investing lots of time and money.  

[hunterbeav]

After reading this post probably 5 times...I decided to put it to action....

I just received a box of Hoyo de Monterrey epicure 1's today dated ene 18 and smoked a rott.....

I smoked it just as suggested.......sloooooow...and wow what a difference it made.....I did have to do 1 touch up on it.....but no....and I mean nooo ammonia taste at all....

I have had some ammonia taste in the past because I know now, I was smoking them too fast...

By the way this was my first ever epi 1 and I have to say I really enjoyed it....a little more pepper in the beginning then an epi 2 but great gram cracker flavor with earth and a little honey....very nice...

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[hunterbeav]

Slow and easy wins the race

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