Non-Cuban Cigars Outside the US? Gaining Momentum?

[Extensioncord]

I'm curious to know how much (or how little) success non-Cuban cigar brands have had breaking into markets that have traditionally been dominated by Habanos.

Being based in the US, I read a lot about brands like Alec Bradley, Oliva and AJ Fernandez (to name a few) becoming more aggressive about securing distributors in Europe and Asia especially. Cigar Journal in particular has run a number of articles touting what they call "new world" (non-Cuban) brands.

If you're interested in sharing your experience, please say which country (or general geographical region) you're from and perhaps maybe even give an estimate of what percentage of the local market you think is now made up of non-Cuban cigar sales.

Thanks - I'm looking forward to any responses you'd be kind enough to share

BTW, I'm fairly new here, and after searching the forum, didn't see this discussed anywhere previously. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken.

[maxcjs0101]

Im from the South East Asia region and the only few NC brands in my country (B&M) are AF, Padron, Davidoff and Macanudo. And there's a very limited selection for each brand. As usual they retail well over what they are being sold in the US.

[TomF]

If the FDA kills the cigar market in the US I think the affected companies will begin marketing their cigars overseas; particularly new blends that they release in the future. Even if the embargo is lifted there will be no Habanos sold in B&M's the US under the new regulations. And I can imagine that the NC cigar companies may begin to buy Cuban tobacco and use it in new blends sold only outside the US.

[TCContender]

I'm curious to know how much (or how little) success non-Cuban cigar brands have had breaking into markets that have traditionally been dominated by Habanos.

Being based in the US, I read a lot about brands like Alec Bradley, Oliva and AJ Fernandez (to name a few) becoming more aggressive about securing distributors in Europe and Asia especially. Cigar Journal in particular has run a number of articles touting what they call "new world" (non-Cuban) brands.

If you're interested in sharing your experience, please say which country (or general geographical region) you're from and perhaps maybe even give an estimate of what percentage of the local market you think is now made up of non-Cuban cigar sales.

Thanks - I'm looking forward to any responses you'd be kind enough to share

BTW, I'm fairly new here, and after searching the forum, didn't see this discussed anywhere previously. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken.

I frequently travel to Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East and I can tell you that in any given B&M or Duty Free, there are easily tenfold more CC offerings that NC. Many smaller shops only carry CCs. I sort of laugh when I hear B&M staff in the US bashing CCs, if NCs were superior they would sell in more than one country.

[SCgarman]

If the FDA kills the cigar market in the US I think the affected companies will begin marketing their cigars overseas; particularly new blends that they release in the future. Even if the embargo is lifted there will be no Habanos sold in B&M's the US under the new regulations. And I can imagine that the NC cigar companies may begin to buy Cuban tobacco and use it in new blends sold only outside the US.

HSA has already stated they will not sell Cuban tobacco to the NC cigar companies, so that is a moot point.

[garbandz]

where will they be sold if not In B&Ms ?

If the FDA kills the cigar market in the US I think the affected companies will begin marketing their cigars overseas; particularly new blends that they release in the future. Even if the embargo is lifted there will be no Habanos sold in B&M's the US under the new regulations. And I can imagine that the NC cigar companies may begin to buy Cuban tobacco and use it in new blends sold only outside the US.

[Puros Y Vino]

I'm in Canada. CC's are more prevalent but a lot of new smokers tend to buy NC's as a start due to lower price points in some B&M's (depending on brands) intermixed with internet ordering. I have seen a huge push from the Padrons, Alec Bradley, Rocky Patel, etc into the European markets over the past 2+ years. I think the more astute ones needed to branch out overseas especially with all the Cuba talk/action going on. Maybe the FDA had them thinking that too?

[Gunson]

I imagine if this FDA mess goes through as is that NC companies will look to the European market to recover their losses.

[SCgarman]

I imagine if this FDA mess goes through as is that NC companies will look to the European market to recover their losses.

Unfortunately they will not recover financial loss by marketing to Europe. The US is by far the largest and most lucrative cigar market in the world. No other market even comes close.

[wabashcr]

where will they be sold if not In B&Ms ?

The same place they are now, on the internet from overseas vendors.

[RijkdeGooier]

Many NC producers and marketeers are working to sell their product in Europe.

From my limited understanding they are becoming more succesful.

I do enjoy some of their recent products too when we smoke them together, we also enjoy a Cuban cigar together? We smoked one if my BHK 56 here?

[btp1979]

I know La Flor Dominicana is developing a distribution chain in Europe. I see Davidoff and Ashton cigars in most of the larger B&Ms I've been to. I'm also starting to see more Padron and Fuente products as well.

[laficion]

Hi all,

Let's be clear on this, those N.C. brands are sold here, that's true but they will NEVER come

close to the Cuban Cigars , why ??

The Cuban's have a taste that the N.C.'s will never come close to.

The Europeans don't widely have the taste for N.C.'s.

The European's will look at the N.C.'s as they do Dutch cigars or any other cigar that is not Cuban.

It's not the reason that we're used to the Cubans, it's just the fact that the N.C.s don't have

the complexity that the Cuban's have ,they are just curiouity items like the other cigars.

All I can say is that the N.C.'s will have a hard time if they want to beat the Cuban's in,

France,or Spain,Italy or any other Southern country.

Guy

[El Presidente]

Davidoff has always been there. Dunhill too. Padron and Arturo Fuente have been in most overseas markets for over 20 years. Rocky has made an aggressive foray in the past decade.

Some OS markets have been more successful for NC than others. In the better B&M European stores where there is a concerted effort toward selling both CC and NC, the NC share is around 16%.

Those NC brands that have been in Europe and Asia for some time will continue to do well. New entrants will struggle to get a foothold. There have been plenty of launches and fails.

The key reason is legislation. Advertising bans and shrinking tobacco displays in this case.

If you cannot adverise your product it is hard to get a foothold. In areas (increasing number) where tobacco displays are decreasing to meet govt requirements, it is hard for a smaller retailer to kick out an Upmann/Cohiba/Monte/R&J/HDM/Partagas in order to make way for a NC. There has to be a big margin for it to be even contemplated.

The days of "give me the marketing support+ pricing. I will put it on my shelves and if the clients like it then I will carry it" are gone in many countries.

Again, those who have taken the time and spent the dollars to have an already established market presence will do well. New entrants will struggle.

Even some emerging markets are a struggle. India has been a big underperformer even for Habanos. It has many cigar buyers but they travel in the main and purchase duty free. China has the tobacco monopoly which requires each individual cigar to be approved for sale and then a limited independent distribution network.

It is hard to see how a score of new NC brands can successfully market into these areas.

What they may focus on in doing JV's with major retailers in customized product. NC Customs in effect. This still won't deliver the volume that they are used to.

[Colt45]

There have been plenty of launches and fails.

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion, but a few years back Perdomo made a concerted effort to break in Oz - any idea how it worked out?

[CaptainQuintero]

The push is noticeable but the impact, at least from my perspective, seems very minimal.

Like Rob mentioned, advertising is banned and in many countries, like the UK, all tobacco products are kept behind shutters you can't see through; you have to ask for what you want.

The exception is dedicated tobacconists and those are, in the UK for example, far and few between. Less than 20 in the country?

NC is pretty much limited to dry/dutch style cigars and the already established Davidoff (Which is very limited from what I've seen)

Cubans supply everything from cheap to ultra expensive so there isn't really a niche to exploit. The dry/dutch cigars like Hamlet, Villiger, Winterman, fill the gap between cigarette and cigar also and have a massive following.

If there was free advertising/marketing available then I could see there being potential but there is just no exposure beyond essentially word of mouth

Pricing, due to taxes and supplying, the premium and cheapo NC are essentially the same price or in many cases are more than their Cuban counterparts.

[El Presidente]

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion, but a few years back Perdomo made a concerted effort to break in Oz - any idea how it worked out?

Crash and burn.

They put in a serious effort as well.

[maxcjs0101]

where will they be sold if not In B&Ms ?

In LCDH's.

Davidoff has always been there. Dunhill too. Padron and Arturo Fuente have been in most overseas markets for over 20 years. Rocky has made an aggressive foray in the past decade.

Some OS markets have been more successful for NC than others. In the better B&M European stores where there is a concerted effort toward selling both CC and NC, the NC share is around 16%.

Those NC brands that have been in Europe and Asia for some time will continue to do well. New entrants will struggle to get a foothold. There have been plenty of launches and fails.

The key reason is legislation. Advertising bans and shrinking tobacco displays in this case.

If you cannot adverise your product it is hard to get a foothold. In areas (increasing number) where tobacco displays are decreasing to meet govt requirements, it is hard for a smaller retailer to kick out an Upmann/Cohiba/Monte/R&J/HDM/Partagas in order to make way for a NC. There has to be a big margin for it to be even contemplated.

The days of "give me the marketing support+ pricing. I will put it on my shelves and if the clients like it then I will carry it" are gone in many countries.

Again, those who have taken the time and spent the dollars to have an already established market presence will do well. New entrants will struggle.

Even some emerging markets are a struggle. India has been a big underperformer even for Habanos. It has many cigar buyers but they travel in the main and purchase duty free. China has the tobacco monopoly which requires each individual cigar to be approved for sale and then a limited independent distribution network.

It is hard to see how a score of new NC brands can successfully market into these areas.

What they may focus on in doing JV's with major retailers in customized product. NC Customs in effect. This still won't deliver the volume that they are used to.

This.

I think most cigar smokers know/realize that eventually, laws will creep up and the entire cigar shebang will be history.

[basjoe613]

Hi all,

Let's be clear on this, those N.C. brands are sold here, that's true but they will NEVER come

close to the Cuban Cigars , why ??

The Cuban's have a taste that the N.C.'s will never come close to.

The Europeans don't widely have the taste for N.C.'s.

The European's will look at the N.C.'s as they do Dutch cigars or any other cigar that is not Cuban.

It's not the reason that we're used to the Cubans, it's just the fact that the N.C.s don't have

the complexity that the Cuban's have ,they are just curiouity items like the other cigars.

All I can say is that the N.C.'s will have a hard time if they want to beat the Cuban's in,

France,or Spain,Italy or any other Southern country.

Guy

I agree that Cubans bring an enjoyable palate experience. One that is repetitive IMO. Since all Cubans are puros, the same flavour is repeated often. With some nice underlying nuances. But the puro aspect is a limitation. The freedom NCs have to experiment with different Tabacco allows for such a wide range of flavours. Yes, that freedom does create some bad even terrible cigars but it also allows for amazing ones. Easily on par with top Cubans...and don't get me started on the joke that is the Regional Edicions.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[Ryan]

JJ Fox in Ireland, there used to be Davidoffs there, the Dominican ones. Not any more. Now I believe they are 100% Cuban when it comes to hand rolled cigars. There are still the likes of Villiger and Irish made machine-made cigars.

In Petersons here, mostly Cuban though also some Ashton cigars as well as Peterson Brand Domincan and Honduran. Most sales would be Cuban though.

The other cigar shop is pushing non-Cubans a lot, Fuente and Padron. I'm not sure how well that is going.

Tobacco here is taxed by weight, not by cost price, so there is not much, if any, of a saving to the consumer to choose non-Cuban over Cuban.

Also, a high percentage of retail cigar sales here are to US tourists, who are not interested in buying Dominican Davidoffs.

The UK shops are seeing an increase in non-Cuban cigar sales every year. A mixture of more aggressive marketing, distribution and shops not being able to get enough stock from the UK distributor of Cuban cigars, without mentioning names. Tobacco in the UK is also taxed by weight so again not much of a saving to the consumer to buy non-Cuban. Some saving though, enough that might make a difference to some buyers.

Every year I go to Spain I see more non-Cuban premium cigars on the shelves. Between 20%-40% of a tobacconists humidor in Spain now will be non-Cuban. Vegafina and Davidoff two of the big ones, though I see a dozen other brands. Vegafina bring out special releases for the Spanish market every year, some of them can be quite good.

In Spain, tobacco tax is not weight based so there is a big difference to the consumer in price. A Bolivar No. 1 tubo is about 8 euro now. A Vegafina tubed corona about 3.50. That's enough of a difference to get people's attention.

[Smallclub]

Vegafina bring out special releases for the Spanish market every year, some of them can be quite good.

Vegafina belongs to Altadis, then the fact they are widely distributed in Spain and France isn't the evidence of a trend, IMHO…

[Ryan]

Vegafina belongs to Altadis, then the fact they are widely distributed in Spain and France isn't the evidence of a trend, IMHO…

That's fair enough. Wide distribution isn't evidence of a trend. Seeing more of them every time I go to Spain, in volume, sizes and blends, possibly is.

[Lotusguy]

NCs are pretty popular in Germany. I'd guess maybe 40% of the available shelf space in the stores I checked out.

[El Presidente]

They (PCC) launched Vega Fina here earlier this year. Actually launched Asia Pacific wide.

It really is a price point cigar. Andy we certainly don't get any of the special releases you mention at least not at this time.

From what I have tried they do not appeal to my taste and I woun't carry them in the B&M store. I understand they have done fairly well from it. They retail for some 30% less than an equivalent Cuban cigar......and they would need to.

From a distribution perspective, it is an Altadis cigar so automatic distribution is locked in.

[brschoppe]

NCs are pretty popular in Germany. I'd guess maybe 40% of the available shelf space in the stores I checked out.

I would imagine that they are in the Netherlands too. If I am not mistaken the Dutch have some lines of their own cigars. I remember one of the first cigars I ever bought was a Justus Van Maurik I got in Amsterdam. I want to say that the tobacco from that cames from Java. Don't the Germans have their own lines of cigars too.