Why no Behike Lancero/similar skinny?

[polarbear]

This may be true with regard to the American smoker, but not regular buyers of habanos in old Europe…

What about China?

With the increase in luxury purchases from the Chinese market I could imagine the interest in larger (more masculine) cigars increasing

[Duxnutz]

The Chinese economy (I'm no economist but I sleep with one) is looking shakier with every coming month. Hopefully that'll quell the need for 65 ring gauge smokes for a while.

[polarbear]

The Chinese economy (I'm no economist but I sleep with one) is looking shakier with every coming month. Hopefully that'll quell the need for 65 ring gauge smokes for a while.

Maybe we'll start seeing all those super fancy Chinese RE Jars up for sale soon at more reasonable prices...

[PigFish]

This may be true with regard to the American smoker, but not regular buyers of habanos in old Europe…

This maybe true… I don't live in old Europe and know few old European smokers.

I see what you mean though, when I see cigars like the Bolivar Libertadores, it just screams old European style and exemplifies their demand for heritage cigars! -LOL

-Piggy

[Maplepie]

People who talk cigars, age cigars, collect cigars, are connoisseurs of cigars, are nothing but a problem for Tabacuba. They are building most of their cigars for flash players with little or no taste!

What about China?

With the increase in luxury purchases from the Chinese market I could imagine the interest in larger (more masculine) cigars increasing

Yupp. There we go. Right there.

It's absolutely and ironically sucks that the Communist government cares more about profit. it absolute disturbs me in a sense. mostly because we're their 'frequent buyers'.

In a reductionist sense, we'd be the people in the cafe shops that contribute more of a friendship towards the owner than a profit. We are the ones who know what we like and cherry pick the small items to show that we actually CARE bout their product. But on the macro scale, we're just treated like absolute rubbish. Rubbish, innit?

[Blakes]

Yupp. There we go. Right there.

It's absolutely and ironically sucks that the Communist government cares more about profit. it absolute disturbs me in a sense. mostly because we're their 'frequent buyers'.

In a reductionist sense, we'd be the people in the cafe shops that contribute more of a friendship towards the owner than a profit. We are the ones who know what we like and cherry pick the small items to show that we actually CARE bout their product. But on the macro scale, we're just treated like absolute rubbish. Rubbish, innit?

To be fair all the discontinuations we talk of and the push towards the expensive, fat and 'exclusive' NC style cigars seems to have started around 2000 after Altadis acquired 50% of Habanos. Maybe the Cubans ain't the problem here?

[tippexx]

I think the answer as to why is pretty obvious. Forget what sells and what does not sell and ask yourself why cigars do or don't sell?

Contemporary availability might have something to do with it. You mention ERdM Grandees sitting unloved on shelves (I don't think they were unloved by the way), but consider the other cigars in similar or close formats, maybe Grandees were second or third choices. Whenever people, including myself, hark back to dearly beloved cigars of the past they almost always mention those that might possibly be found today, they rarely mention those that can't be found for love nor money. Everything has it's run, but sooner or later Demi Tasse or DC all are deleted and something else takes its place.

[Duxnutz]

I'd love to find me some ERdM Grandes de Espana sitting on the shelf! I last saw a box a yr ago and sadly only purchased a handful of singles. Facepalm.

[Maplepie]

To be fair all the discontinuations we talk of and the push towards the expensive, fat and 'exclusive' NC style cigars seems to have started around 2000 after Altadis acquired 50% of Habanos. Maybe the Cubans ain't the problem here?

hmmmmmmmm... points of view, eh? makes me wonder what else i don't know.

how and why did the Spanish importer acquire shares from their actual seller? i know of all the boxes and what not being made in Spain... is that another thing, too?

[PigFish]

I don't want to start another political thread here but a Spanish company buying 1/2 of a 'marketing company' in H SA and certainly not 1/2 of Tabacuba, a nationalized, wholly government owned, government controlled entity means little to nothing to those that run Tabacuba. To Tabacuba, and the Cuban government, it means another sucker bringing in cash!

A government that rejects the premise of capitalism from its core is not going to allow a foreign interest, a capitalist interest, run its company for any amount of money, for any amount of time. Believing that Tabacuba is run, or even influenced by a foreign capitalist entity contrary to its own mission reflects a core misunderstanding of how despotic governments function.

JMHO!

[Colt45]

hmmmmmmmm... points of view, eh? makes me wonder what else i don't know.

Perhaps something to keep in mind - Altadis was a Spanish / French / now British company (does it get much more old Europe than that?). Habanos is the marketing / distribution arm of the Cuban cigar industry, but do have input (perhaps putting it mildly) on new cigars / cigars that go away.

For anyone who might be interested:

Link

[El Presidente]

I don't want to start another political thread here but a Spanish company buying 1/2 of a 'marketing company' in H SA and certainly not 1/2 of Tabacuba, a nationalized, wholly government owned, government controlled entity means little to nothing to those that run Tabacuba. To Tabacuba, and the Cuban government, it means another sucker bringing in cash!

A government that rejects the premise of capitalism from its core is not going to allow a foreign interest, a capitalist interest, run its company for any amount of money, for any amount of time. Believing that Tabacuba is run, or even influenced by a foreign capitalist entity contrary to its own mission reflects a core misunderstanding of how despotic governments function.

JMHO!

Actually Pigster ...if you speak to the Cuban side of HSA (particularly the old timers), it is Altadis Spain arm of Imperial that holds the whip hand on what or what not to make.

I have a recent interview on file with one of these recently retired old timers (45 years in various forms of the Cuban side of production/marketing/international expansion) but I could never publish it even under a "Nom De Plume".

He firmly believes the it was a disaster selling 50% of the marketing arm to Altadis. He also is a realist that The Cuban side drove the business into the ground prior.

Interesting point he states is that while there are some good tobacco people (who understand tobacco) on the Spanish side there is not enough and they certainly don't hold the senior positions where decisions are made.

The Cuban side don't have a Peso. Only one side of this JV can deliver euros for specific projects and that gives them an immense say.

[tippexx]

The Cuban side don't have a Peso. Only one side of this JV can deliver euros for specific projects and that gives them an immense say.

And their accountancy experience which would in a great part coloured by their principle market would determine that longer, slimmer cigars aren't great sellers.

[Colt45]

And their accountancy experience which would in a great part coloured by their principle market would determine that longer, slimmer cigars aren't great sellers.

Purely for conversation, they can't sell cigars they don't produce.

I understand the economics of scale, but let's say they were guaranteed to sell 10 to 20 boxes of "Brand X" coronas, or delicados, or parejos - choose a size - per month, or every other month. Would it really be that cost prohibitive to produce them?

[mk05]

I was under the impression that Altadis gets a voice on what to make, seeing as the portfolio started to change post-merger, and towards vitolas appealing to NC crossover market.

Colt - The non-existant cost of adding in one leaf of volado for 2x margin says yes. (lol...)

Back on topic - no, it would not be possible to re-create the low-acidity Behike taste in a small ring gauge...I think you could come close and mimic it, but it wouldn't be perfect. There is one sub-40rg cigar that tastes like a Behike blind, but that is my secret stick.

[joeypots]

How long dod it take them to sell out the Bolivar Especiales No.2 2009 - Edición Regional Alemania?

Long and skinny are out of fashion, its as simple as that.

[CaptainQuintero]

There is one sub-40rg cigar that tastes like a Behike blind, but that is my secret stick.

Lcg #4?

Share with us mortals!

[tippexx]

Long and skinny are out of fashion, its as simple as that.

That might be a were out of fashion ... the number of NC brands which now roll Lancero is on the increase.

[MPS]

How long dod it take them to sell out the Bolivar Especiales No.2 2009 - Edición Regional Alemania?

Long and skinny are out of fashion, its as simple as that.

It's true only the meshuganas smoke toothpicks anymore. Best to get your own rolled for you.

[mk05]

oh damn...I give that a PE-PSP scale, that is P90X...or is it that a BHK56 did P90X and turned into those!?

[PigFish]

Actually Pigster ...if you speak to the Cuban side of HSA (particularly the old timers), it is Altadis Spain arm of Imperial that holds the whip hand on what or what not to make.

I have a recent interview on file with one of these recently retired old timers (45 years in various forms of the Cuban side of production/marketing/international expansion) but I could never publish it even under a "Nom De Plume".

He firmly believes the it was a disaster selling 50% of the marketing arm to Altadis. He also is a realist that The Cuban side drove the business into the ground prior.

Interesting point he states is that while there are some good tobacco people (who understand tobacco) on the Spanish side there is not enough and they certainly don't hold the senior positions where decisions are made.

The Cuban side don't have a Peso. Only one side of this JV can deliver euros for specific projects and that gives them an immense say.

As always my friend your insight and inside info is invaluable!

Still there is something here that does not pass the smell test.

So in a nutshell, those that own the monopoly and are arguably responsible for its state of decline in the first place, have found a scapegoat to blame further decline on, when they are still the monopoly holder? Well ain't that grand!

I believe that your contact believes what he is saying and there is likely real reasons for his beliefs, I just don't know I believe them!

How does a billion dollar success story not make a success of a failing monopoly if they in fact have control over the monopoly? There are parts missing here… Someone is not being honest with some aspect of this formula!!!

Altadis et al is a success story. They have a proven track record of success, like them or not. Tabacuba is a failing monopoly that works with slave labor rates and cannot make a success of itself. How can this be Altadis' fault?

I don't deny what you have been told. But I do question the jade of the assessments that caused that conclusion. With all due respect for your friend and contact.

Tabacuba was in the process of failing. If they are still failing it is because they are either making the same mistakes or a combination of the same and new mistakes causing them to fail. Alatadis et al, is not failing! Logic must come into the assessment.

Tabacuba is not a business!!! It is government. Government running a business is not business. It is government first and business last.

When Tabacuba takes on a new CEO from a successful tobacco company, I will be happy to blame their losses on the new CEO. As I see it, they are still picking party members for leadership and not Altadis executives and that says it all to me. So who is the new head of Tabacuba? Is he an employee of Altadis or is he an employee of the Cuban government?

Frankly if Altadis ran Tabacuba, they would deliver cigars on time! They would draw consistently and look good like Altadis cigars look… While I might never smoke another one (I think they taste like crap), it would be apparent that Altadis was in charge. Altadis by the way has a broad and inclusive catalogue of cigars. They look to capture any segment that they can get. None of this describes Tabacuba!

Tabacuba still walks, talks and acts like a Cuban duck! It is a Cuban duck!!

Thanks for chiming in! -Ray

[El Presidente]

As always my friend your insight and inside info is invaluable!

Still there is something here that does not pass the smell test.

So in a nutshell, those that own the monopoly and are arguably responsible for its state of decline in the first place, have found a scapegoat to blame further decline on, when they are still the monopoly holder? Well ain't that grand!

I believe that your contact believes what he is saying and there is likely real reasons for his beliefs, I just don't know I believe them!

How does a billion dollar success story not make a success of a failing monopoly if they in fact have control over the monopoly? There are parts missing here… Someone is not being honest with some aspect of this formula!!!

Altadis et al is a success story. They have a proven track record of success, like them or not. Tabacuba is a failing monopoly that works with slave labor rates and cannot make a success of itself. How can this be Altadis' fault?

I don't deny what you have been told. But I do question the jade of the assessments that caused that conclusion. With all due respect for your friend and contact.

Tabacuba was in the process of failing. If they are still failing it is because they are either making the same mistakes or a combination of the same and new mistakes causing them to fail. Alatadis et al, is not failing! Logic must come into the assessment.

Tabacuba is not a business!!! It is government. Government running a business is not business. It is government first and business last.

When Tabacuba takes on a new CEO from a successful tobacco company, I will be happy to blame their losses on the new CEO. As I see it, they are still picking party members for leadership and not Altadis executives and that says it all to me. So who is the new head of Tabacuba? Is he an employee of Altadis or is he an employee of the Cuban government?

Frankly if Altadis ran Tabacuba, they would deliver cigars on time! They would draw consistently and look good like Altadis cigars look… While I might never smoke another one (I think they taste like crap), it would be apparent that Altadis was in charge. Altadis by the way has a broad and inclusive catalogue of cigars. They look to capture any segment that they can get. None of this describes Tabacuba!

Tabacuba still walks, talks and acts like a Cuban duck! It is a Cuban duck!!

Thanks for chiming in! -Ray

Piggy

• He stated that they (the Cubans) ran the business into the ground.
• I have not met an Altadis Cigar exec that isn't a marketing genius. In the main wouldn't know a tobacco field from a bean crop but no matter.
• I have not met a Cuban side exec that isn't involved in some internal political melodrama.

Whether you like it or not mate.

Altadis cuts cigars. They put up 20 to cut...the Cubans pare it back to half. Altadis are the bean counters and the Cubans don't have any beans to count.

Altadis/imperial has nothing to do with the factories / production in Cuba. That partly explains the quality inconsistencies of Cuban cigars.

Altadis is a marketing success story indeed. So is Pizza Hut.... doesn't make it great Pizza.... but people buy them enough to make it the leading world chain.

The Cuban side deserve all the criticism they get. The system sucks and leads to a situation where it is continual crisis management. Still, there are some very good and passionate people involved....just mostly in the wrong positions due to internal politics and barriers

Altadis designs and rolls out shiny new things like Monte Open.The most Non Cuban Cigar yet produced. Highly successful however as found in every airport duty free around the world.

[Colt45]

That might be a were out of fashion ... the number of NC brands which now roll Lancero is on the increase.

If I may add:

Fashions come and go - classic never goes out of style

[tippexx]

Agreed, fashion is just froth on the beer of style .... but unfortunately, most people are to style what Mike Tyson is to ballet dancing!

Still no reason in this thread as far as I can see for Habanos not being able to produce a halfway decent long Behike. So it might not taste exactly like a 52, 54 or 56, but why should it and who really cares? As long as there sufficient in the character and flavour to determine the family association — and it tastes good — most would be happy with that.

[tippexx]

• I have not met an Altadis Cigar exec that isn't a marketing genius.

Are you sure Rob? From what you've described, competing blind-folded in a three-legged sack race is something real geniuses would have scarpered away from ages ago!