The art of discourse in the modern world.

[El Presidente]

I received a cracking email over the weekend reprimanding me for a post (2020) where it was deemed proof positive that I (and by implication the forum) was favouring one particular political persuasion. 

I find it very hard to define my politics in the modern world. God knows it appears today that one needs to "take a side" and that is something that I am uncomfortable with. Many of the things I was strident about in my 20's have taken a 180 degree turn in my 50's. Even on those issues I am open to learning and discourse from trusted sources/friends/acquaintances who hold a variant opinion. I love learning and putting my beliefs to the test. I want to be shown another way, to be proven wrong in part or whole.  

For the record, my politics/social justice positions generally meander through the lines of centre right to centre left. I can be quite right on some issues and quite Left on others. However I don't hold immovable positions on either.  I have friends who are right of Genghis Khan and friends who are  vocal social liberals. I love and value them all. 

Our discussions/debates over a cigar and or a drink are devoid of "gotcha" moments. There is no "winner take all" verbal gladiatorial battle. There is respect, questioning, listening.....more listening....and an acceptance that "agreeing to disagree" is not a "draw" but rather a possible precursor to think about the subject in discussion a little more. 9 times in 10 we will circle back at a later date to enjoy the engagement of ideas again. 

We don't always reach such standards. I am as imperfect as the next. The weekend email regarded the position I took on Covid during 2020. The position taken was based upon perception of available evidence at the time. In retrospect I would have handled it differently. My own thought processes on the period have certainly changed (in part if not fully).  Live and learn. 

I have to thank you all for  keeping discourse/discussion on FOH to a generally high standard. Increasingly, it is becoming a rarity in today's world. 

Continue taking the high road. There will always be some potholes  

 

 

[bishop532]

I feel pretty much exactly the same. I try to always vote the candidate, not the party, and my positions also tend to vary from center right to center left.  Unfortunately I know almost no one else in my offline life who thinks that way besides my wife. And as time goes on it seems there’s less and less tolerance for even hearing what “the other side” has to say. I really hope that starts to change, because interacting solely with people who think exactly the same as I do tends to make for pretty bland living. It seems to me there’s a lack of empathy right now, across the spectrum.

[El Presidente]

13 minutes ago, bishop532 said:

 I really hope that starts to change, because interacting solely with people who think exactly the same as I do tends to make for pretty bland living.

Bingo 

[MrBirdman]

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I received a cracking email over the weekend reprimanding me for a post (2020) where it was deemed proof positive that I (and by implication the forum) was favouring one particular political persuasion. 

Honestly I began to completely lose hope after seeing how petulant and childish a huge proportion of the public was about wearing a friggin mask in the midst of a global pandemic. 

If large numbers of people resist making even a trivial effort towards a common goal, we’re hopeless. 

This place is a refuge from the sad state of reality and helps keep that ember of hope alive. 

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

Honestly I began to completely lose hope after seeing how petulant and childish a huge proportion of the public was about wearing a friggin mask in the midst of a global pandemic. 

If large numbers of people resist making even a trivial effort towards a common goal, we’re hopeless. 

This place is a refuge from the sad state of reality and helps keep that ember of hope alive. 

Have less faith in humanity, so when they show a semblance of common sense and courtesy, it is a happy surprise.

[MagicalBikeRide]

During an interview, when being questioned about his changing view over the years, John Maynard Keynes is reported to have said - 

 

When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?

[GVan]

Well before we coined the term "Influencer" in our society, it had already become difficult to have a meaningful and calm discourse even amongst family members.  I sometimes think that starting a controversy is just the whole point of some conversations.

For business reasons both my wife and I changed to "Independent's" politically.  That was over 30 years ago!  While we sometimes wish we could vote in the USA's system of Political Primaries to help select better candidates - being a registered independent has been extremely valuable at keeping me out of debating / conversational trouble.  When someone starts a politically charged or politically correct diatribe, I simply let them know that I'm an "Independent" and would love to hear more of the why they have that particular view.  Over the years I have found that it usually calms them down and we can then have at least a modicum of a civilized conversation (that is as long as I keep sneaking in my opinion as questions)!

I tend to be pretty conservative on issues and love a good debate.  My wife (and her 2 sisters) were raised as "Chicago Democrat's" and very liberal.  Now my wife and oldest son are right of Trump.  My middle daughter was extremely liberal and incredibly left leaning as a teenager (which is why she became an Immigration Lawyer).  Those were some fun conversations when she was young.  I actually loved her "idealistic period".  I found it amazing that within a few years of finishing college, moving out, getting married, having their first child - and the big one - paying taxes - her views moderated and now at 40 she is a conservative.  I also have never forgot how it all started changing for her .... sorry for the loosely related story below.

She was in her last year of law school and she called and asked if she could go to China to study their emerging legal system.  Luckily, at about her third week, I had to go to Beijing on a week long business trip.  When I called to tell her I was headed over and planned on spending the weekend with her, she asked me to bring those small, pocket-sized packages of wrapped tissues (for bathroom use when they were touring), extra toothbrushes (she kept forgetting and putting them under the university's tap water) and as many of her favorite protein bars as I could pack.  Of course, I packed a military style duffle bag full of all of these essentials for her and her friends (to this day I can't believe I got that through customs).  The best part of this story, is upon her return home to Indiana University Law School, she called me and told me that "She Loved our Country".  In China she lived on campus, visited with the local students in their homes on weekends, and went out to the country-side to see what it was like outside of the big cities -- her first big eye-opener into the rest of the world.  That next summer, she called me before her family came for a week long visit over the 4th of July Holiday and asked me if I planned on having any American Flags up around the house.  She told me that she loved to see the flag waving in the breezes.  Obviously, I went all out and had 14 American Flags in the front yard and 12 American Flags in the backyard - which is still a tradition that she started that now I carry on with the grandchildren!

[joeypots]

I find that if I assume both, or many, sides of an issue have merit then I can engage in a civil conversion. What I encounter more and more are lack of reasoned positions,  inherent bias, and a denunciation of best available evidence. The advent of the internet, which was first thought to have the potential to bring us together with best information, almost immediately devolved into a circus where we all can find the info we want to bolster our bias. Things are complicated. It’s interesting, and horrifying, to watch the currant mid east conflict unfold and see people who share common values find each other on opposite sides of a serous issue. 

[MrBirdman]

25 minutes ago, joeypots said:

What I encounter more and more are lack of reasoned positions,  inherent bias, and a denunciation of best available evidence. The advent of the internet, which was first thought to have the potential to bring us together with best information, almost immediately devolved into a circus where we all can find the info we want to bolster our bias.

Totally agree. The role of social media (and the regular media, which is highly polarized too) is important I think. Since my father, a former political agnostic, started watch Fox News in retirement he’s become incredibly hostile, embittered, and paranoid. His beliefs have become highly irrational (e.g. Trump wants to stop funding the war in Ukraine, but nevertheless Putin would pull out were he reelected). 

The business model of cable news and social media news is addicting people to outrage. It’s terrifyingly successful with many people. 

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

 Since my father, a former political agnostic, started watch Fox News in retirement he’s become 

Fox News was Rupert Murdoch at his best. 

Seeing that the media environment was predominantly cente left, he develped the counter to meet the other half of the market that wasn't being serviced. As a business move, sheer genius. 

 

[Chas.Alpha]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Fox News was Rupert Murdoch at his best. 

Seeing that the media environment was predominantly cente left, he develped the counter to meet the other half of the market that wasn't being serviced. As a business move, sheer genius. 

 

We call that “alternative facts” over here.

[MrBirdman]

39 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Seeing that the media environment was predominantly cente left, he develped the counter to meet the other half of the market that wasn't being serviced. As a business move, sheer genius. 

No question - the irony is he's apparently come to regret how extreme it has gotten (the channel is now beholden to a base they helped create; witness the outrage when they called Arizona for Biden. Even though they were completely correct, FNC ended up firing the analysts who made the call). FNC is a money machine, and while their viewer base is rapidly aging that's a problem for cable across the board.

Favorite quote from the recent Murdoch biograph was his opinion of FNC stalwart Sean Hannity: "He's retarded, like most Americans." 

[El Presidente]

10 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

No question - the irony is he's apparently come to regret how extreme it has gotten (the channel is now beholden to a base they helped create; witness the outrage when they called Arizona for Biden. Even though they were completely correct, FNC ended up firing the analysts who made the call). FNC is a money machine, and while their viewer base is rapidly aging that's a problem for cable across the board.

Favorite quote from the recent Murdoch biograph was his opinion of FNC stalwart Sean Hannity: "He's retarded, like most Americans." 

The only thing Rupert regrets is the $787 M in fines re Dominion. 

Mind you, that would be covered quickly by the return on the 71 Billion sale of 20th Century Fox to Disney. One of the great deals....for Rupert. 

 

[MrBirdman]

36 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The only thing Rupert regrets is the $787 M in fines re Dominion. 

Well the recent biography says that as he’s gotten older he’s genuinely come to regret that FNC will be his greatest legacy. Mind you, I have zero sympathy for him. He’s wielded his power cynically for profit and influence for decades, and if he has any regrets they’re a pitifully small comeuppance compared to the damage he’s caused.

[Fireball]

I generally am issue and person centric when voting. Not party.  I generally engage with people on both extremes when discussing issues. I only lost my cool -a little -once, but it was on a particularly emotional topic.

I don’t know why, but I love it when someone can say something I haven’t thought of and changes my thought on an issue.  Mentally I feel renewed in people in some odd way.  Maybe renewed in myself for not being so old in my thinking that I am inflexible. 

[MagicalBikeRide]

8 hours ago, Fireball said:

I don’t know why, but I love it when someone can say something I haven’t thought of and changes my thought on an issue. 

This thread is reminding me of many random quotes I’ve read over the years, but until now, had no plausible excuse to regurgitate 😃

In his book Future Shock (published in 1970), Alvin Toffler wrote - 

The illiterate of the twenty-first century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.
 

 

[targa88]

I will always remember words of wisdom from my father = that I didn't realize were wisdom until I was much older

If you can't improve on silence keep your mouth shut

There is a reason we have two ears and one mouth. We should listen more.....before responding...

In terms of the "aftermath of "non" social media. He was not around for that. However I suspect that his commentary would have been that bias without accountability (because a lot of it is anonymous) is a waste of time and effort.

End of ....

[PuroDiario]

If only, we all could apply Common Sense and Respect each other…

I have been reading a lot of history for the last few months, and going into the classics. It rhymes…

https://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-23-3-b-cicero-defender-of-the-roman-republic

[BrightonCorgi]

There is for sure a strong Left leaning slant on this forum. Makes sense from locale of prominent members and moderators. This is not a dig or a compliment. Just an observation from a political science graduate.

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There is for sure a strong Left leaning slant on this forum.

I strongly disagree. Of course “left leaning” today was “right leaning” 25 years ago. So who the hell knows. 

[dominattorney]

25 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

I strongly disagree. Of course “left leaning” today was “right leaning” 25 years ago. So who the hell knows. 

If anything I feel it is right leaning, but not in an extreme or hokey sense. The general consensus was wear a mask and get a vaccine, though there were some thoughtful counterpoints on vaccination that certainly weren't out of right field during the covid threads. 

I suppose it's all relative though. In my community of criminal defense and plaintiffs lawyers, I'm an outlying "far right" voice, according to many members. 

[MagicalBikeRide]

The idea or concept of left vs right is quite relative I feel. Ireland has, for example, what we describe as centre right or centre left parties. But almost all have select ideas and policies are akin to those proposed by Bernie Sanders. So very left is a US context. 
 

I much prefer to view political positions through a four pole approach. Something like this graph below - which separates economic from social drivers. 

 

[El Presidente]

8 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There is for sure a strong Left leaning slant on this forum. Makes sense from locale of prominent members and moderators. 

That's interesting 

In terms of mods, the politics is skewed right. Just. 

Now that means "global right", not US political right which is a planet all to itself. 

[Chas.Alpha]

11 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There is for sure a strong Left leaning slant on this forum. Makes sense from locale of prominent members and moderators. This is not a dig or a compliment. Just an observation from a political science graduate.

Really? I thought that I was the only one…

[BoliDan]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:31 PM, Chas.Alpha said:

We call that “alternative facts” over here.

Sad that. Currently reporting on younger gens "favoring weed over alcohol on social occasions, and that is a bad thing" is their latest game. "The Highways are safer, less young people are dying in car accidents by a very large margin, and it's all "X' generation's fault!" Can they pander to a more curmudgeon audience? I think not.