MAT Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 In my opinion, the sanctions are insufficient, Ukraine feels legitimately betrayed by the powers that guaranteed its territorial integrity and security when signing the Budapest Memorandum. 3
El Presidente Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 On 3/18/2022 at 2:42 PM, dominattorney said: I'm surprised about the precedent of world governments seizing private assets as retribution for the actions of the government. Happening in Cuba. Happening in Venezuela. I have no problem with either. Targetting those who have directly beneffitted from totalitarian State largesse is fair game. 2
dominattorney Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 4 hours ago, El Presidente said: Happening in Cuba. Happening in Venezuela. I have no problem with either. Targetting those who have directly beneffitted from totalitarian State largesse is fair game. No problem with it either. Just surprised that my country would back it. Lots of people here better be careful what they wish for 2 1
Ken Gargett Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 Just now, dominattorney said: No problem with it either. Just surprised that my country would back it. Lots of people here better be careful what they wish for perhaps the answer is to announce that anything confiscated in relation to this will be given to or sold to provide funds for the reconstruction of the ukraine or for the support of its displaced people around the world. make it clear nothing is coming back. but also that it is not a grab for any country's benefit. 4
dominattorney Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said: perhaps the answer is to announce that anything confiscated in relation to this will be given to or sold to provide funds for the reconstruction of the ukraine or for the support of its displaced people around the world. make it clear nothing is coming back. but also that it is not a grab for any country's benefit. Unclear what the answer is. The Russian oligarchs basically looted their own countrymen for their ill gotten gains. Is it truly fair to give it to the latest victim of their governments aggression? On the other hand, is it fair not to? I'm glad I don't get paid to make these choices mates
Ken Gargett Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 Just now, dominattorney said: Unclear what the answer is. The Russian oligarchs basically looted their own countrymen for their ill gotten gains. Is it truly fair to give it to the latest victim of their governments aggression? On the other hand, is it fair not to? I'm glad I don't get paid to make these choices mates understand but there is no way it is going back to the russian people in any circumstance. for me, this assists a population which was invaded and helps to punish those which were behind it or supported those who did. if it went back to those originally looted, it would take about three minutes for it to be looted again. 2
Enduin Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 On 3/18/2022 at 9:18 AM, dominattorney said: Civil forfeiture is one thing, but we are calling this sanctions are we not? We don't like you, so let's see if we can figure out an existing way to take your stuff. When the US at least uses civil forfeiture against a drug lord they don't call it sanctions. It's not quite as simple as "we don't like you" but rather "you got that money by supporting a murderous dictator". Calling it sanctions might be inaccurate but ultimately these seizures were approved at the same time as other proper sanctions against Russia so they ended up under the same umbrella when they are in fact a lot more like civil forfeiture. And it would certainly be a good thing if the money were used to help Ukraine like Ken said. Definitely makes it less likely that this thing will be abused. Then again as long as it only applies to people affiliated with murderers and war criminals maybe the risk for abuse is not that great... Not zero, I'm not that naive, but maybe acceptably low? 1
Philc2001 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 For the past month I have been wondering why the west doesn't just shut off the spigot to Russian energy. Of course, I know it's complex and it takes some time, but seeing headlines stating Italy needs 3 years to stop importing Russian oil, or that Germany can't transition from Russian gas without crashing the global economy made me somewhat skeptical that the west was really stepping up. An article in the Guardian today put some more of this into perspective. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/west-putin-sacred-cash-cow-russia-ukraine-gas I am still not convinced that much of Europe is truly aware of the incredible risk they have undertaken sleeping with a deadly bear, but I am hoping they muster the courage and willpower to make a concerted, enduring, unwavering effort to undo their sordid affairs with Russia. It seems to me the key to containing Putin is to slaughter his cash cow. 2
dominattorney Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 16 hours ago, Enduin said: It's not quite as simple as "we don't like you" but rather "you got that money by supporting a murderous dictator". Calling it sanctions might be inaccurate but ultimately these seizures were approved at the same time as other proper sanctions against Russia so they ended up under the same umbrella when they are in fact a lot more like civil forfeiture. And it would certainly be a good thing if the money were used to help Ukraine like Ken said. Definitely makes it less likely that this thing will be abused. Then again as long as it only applies to people affiliated with murderers and war criminals maybe the risk for abuse is not that great... Not zero, I'm not that naive, but maybe acceptably low? Just saw an interesting wrinkle in the mix in an article talking about the fact that seized super yachts aren't being maintained and will begin to depreciate and possibly become worthless without robust maintenance expenses. https://www.businessinsider.com/what-happens-to-russian-oligarch-sanctioned-yachts-without-maintenance-crews-2022-3?amp 1
El Presidente Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 40 minutes ago, dominattorney said: Just saw an interesting wrinkle in the mix in an article talking about the fact that seized super yachts aren't being maintained and will begin to depreciate and possibly become worthless without robust maintenance expenses. https://www.businessinsider.com/what-happens-to-russian-oligarch-sanctioned-yachts-without-maintenance-crews-2022-3?amp I am sure that "super yachts" devaluation is uppermost on peoples minds. Maybe they could use them as temporary accommodation for Mariupol refugees. 4
dominattorney Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, El Presidente said: I am sure that "super yachts" devaluation is uppermost on peoples minds. Maybe they could use them as temporary accommodation for Mariupol refugees. Devaluation is important if there are plans to juice them later and use the proceeds for something productive.
Fuzz Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 More fun to make the oligarchs watch as their yachts are scrapped and their homes become accommodation for refugees.
Enduin Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 I think at the moment the punitive aspect comes before the practical aspect of using the proceeds for something productive, whether it's right or not. It would be a shame if the mega-yachts crapped out and couldn't be sold but at the same time imagine the trolling potential: hey here's your yacht Mr. Oligarch, you just have to hoist it from the bottom of the marina. Fresh coat of paint and it'll be mint! 1
helix Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 This is sobering . Mariupal the last journalists. " The Russians were hunting us down. They had a list of names, including ours, and they were closing in." https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-edf7240a9d990e7e3e32f82ca351dede?user_email=ccc304a4ac830ca87a8d788f46400fdb568790ee28dd6fc5a9cd05f5d27c3dec&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Russia Ukraine&utm_term=Morning Wire Subscribers
Hammer Smokin' Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 hey, the russians are just 'freeing' those pesky citizens from the nazi-based society they currently live in. I can't imagine why they aren't going voluntarily. 1
dominattorney Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 18 hours ago, Enduin said: I think at the moment the punitive aspect comes before the practical aspect of using the proceeds for something productive, whether it's right or not. It would be a shame if the mega-yachts crapped out and couldn't be sold but at the same time imagine the trolling potential: hey here's your yacht Mr. Oligarch, you just have to hoist it from the bottom of the marina. Fresh coat of paint and it'll be mint! While I don't disagree in principle, it would be a shame for these people to use the laws of civilization against us and insist upon restitution after the fact if a forfeiture of the seized and subsequently ruined assets is unsuccessful.
helix Posted April 28, 2022 Posted April 28, 2022 Weird , Cuban Generals also ??? Pure coincidence surely. https://globalnews.ca/news/8790242/russian-oligarchs-suicides-ukraine/
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