EAR: One for the FOH US Attorney brigade

[El Presidente]

Busy email day 

so my dilema  boils down to the fact that my x's attorneys are going hard. The situation has turned ugly and they are seeking full purchase records and valuations going back years. I need to provide disclosure but I also have to provide valuations. Rob you know I have a decent collection and if they went on Bond Roberts it would seem like I have a mini fortune. I can handle my side but I would like to ask what would you or BR do if you were approached to disclose sales or provide a valuation. 

 

I actually get the above question regularly and our general course of action is to ignore all requests and play dumb (Yes I know, I have nailed the brief )  

We say nothing to no one. Mind you I will give you a call  if subpoenaed locally and given a choice of rolling over the info or spending 30 days in the cooler. 

My question to our US Attorney members........exactly what can be done by US attorneys trying to elicit such information from OS companies/individuals?   How can they turn up the heat or is it all piss and wind?

[HarveyBoulevard]

That all depends on how much money and time they want to spend getting the information.  99.99% of the time, an attorney in the United States is going to get nowhere obtaining records from FOH/BR/etc.  If you are out of state it can be hard...out of country is another kind of hard.  However, if one has enough money and time (which doesn't make sense for a cigar collection, no matter how extensive) there are ways if the entity conducts business in the U.S.  Good luck with that since you don't sell to us here in the U.S......😆

Short version.  It is piss in the wind...until you feel your face getting wet...

Now, the poor bastard who is in this mess can be in a lot more hot water than you would find yourself.

[NSXCIGAR]

I am not an attorney but I'm sure there are many methods courts use to determine the value of anything. If he's being asked to provide purchase records there you go. I doubt he'll be subject to much of an increase in value as that's more difficult to calculate even if experts are brought in, but everyone knows cigars don't lose value so it may just be purchase price. 

 

10 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

99.99% of the time, an attorney in the United States is going to get nowhere obtaining records from FOH/BR/etc. 

No, but it would be easy to use Google to get an estimate of value based on sold BR or UK listings if they were so inclined. In this case, I doubt it would be worth the time for a personal cigar collection. Obviously, if you're talking 1492 humidors and Siglo XXI cabinets there might be much more incentive to do that. The fact that they asked for purchase records will probably satisfy them in terms of value. 

Another thread not enticing me to marriage...

[HarveyBoulevard]

11 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

No, but it would be easy to use Google to get an estimate of value based on sold BR or UK listings if they were so inclined. In this case, I doubt it would be worth the time for a personal cigar collection. Obviously, if you're talking 1492 humidors and Siglo XXI cabinets there might be much more incentive to do that. The fact that they asked for purchase records will probably satisfy them in terms of value. 

I have seen couples fight about the value of her make-up collection, shoes, handbags, etc.  I have seen couples fight about the value of his guns, ammo, cigars, booze, etc.  My wife knows about my cigar collection, sans 1492 humidors and the like, and if we were to get divorced, I can guarantee she would spend the time to find out the value using BR et al.  As I said, all a matter of the value of marital assets.  The higher the value, the harder the fight.

The courts don't care about purchase price of houses or cars...they care about current market value.

However, the answer to Rob's question is 'piss in the wind'

[Chas.Alpha]

BR or any other reference is irrelevant. What you paid for them might be, from an attorney’s point of view. I have a couple of Nolan Ryan/Jerry Koosman rookie baseball cards. I want to place a value on them. I paid 5c when I got them.

I believe them to be worth 5c. If the lawyer believes they’re worth more, make him sell them. He will be guilty of a crime...

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Chas.Alpha

[Duxnutz]

Wow, am amazed someone be that petty .

[Fuzz AI]

If the attorney asks me how much my Cuban cigars cost, my answer is going to be....

[RichG]

Reband/rebox your whole collection in Garcia Vega attire. “Ahhh yes sir…the value of these 5000 cigars is $500.”

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

17 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

BR or any other reference is irrelevant. What you paid for them might be, from an attorney’s point of view. I have a couple of Nolan Ryan/Jerry Koosman rookie baseball cards. I want to place a value on them. I paid 5c when I got them.

I believe them to be worth 5c. If the lawyer believes they’re worth more, make him sell them. He will be guilty of a crime...

 

Courts can in fact force sales of marital property so careful what you wish for...

No one cares what you think it is worth.  You will care what the court tells you it is worth when they make that determination based on expert testimony etc.

Things get out of hand real fast and then it spirals out of control even faster.  I hate family law and that is why I just to criminal defense now.  Everyone is so much happier...including the defendant

[Edicion]

Well, in my experience from watching American movies and TV shows, I'm inclined to say that if the disclosed value after being reported by the OP is lower than expected (if there are expectations) the counterpart would bring in a third party, like an appraiser to evaluate the worth of the cigars, same as they would with jewelry, a house, a car, etc etc. Then the court would hear the OPs expert that Cuban cigars in the US and cite all nice kinds of laws. I also expect that a letter of support could be issued by a reputable seller or expert from the tobacco business to back up claims that the value is as purchased or lower as there are no guarantees or substantial evidence that a sale (auction or online) would take place at any higher amount. 

[inter4alia]

The Hague Convention on Taking of Evidence Abroad is the formal answer to the question. But piss in the wind is the practical reality in this situation because there are much easier and less costly ways for her attorney to obtain value without jumping through the Hague Convention hoops, e.g. "expert" witness as mentioned above. Rest easy @El Presidente 😉

[Fuzz AI]

Cuban cigars in the US cannot be bought or sold as it is illegal!! Therefore they have no intrinsic value!!

So if the court orders you to sell, I assume you can argue that is entrapment.

[Cayman17]

I don’t practice family law, but I have read (as a former appellate law clerk) several appeals from equitable distribution orders where a party challenges the value that the judge placed on his old jet ski, their cabin by the lake, etc. Basically, the judge looks to the valuation presented by the parties and makes a credibility determination. If you have actual receipts, in my opinion the court would be inclined to go with that value unless your wife’s attorneys have a lot of knowledge and actually make an effort to research sales records. I doubt anyone would call an expert witness for cigars.  

[NSXCIGAR]

8 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Cuban cigars in the US cannot be bought or sold as it is illegal!! Therefore they have no intrinsic value!!

It crossed my mind and left which it shouldn't have. I think you're on to something.

All post-Embargo Cuban cigars in the US should be for personal use. It is illegal to sell them or even trade them. I believe you are correct in that they have no realizable market value. 

I don't see why that case can't be made in court. Cuban cigars cannot be considered assets in the US. 

[...]

Could the cigars be deemed as illegal possessions if they were bought outside of the few years when they could be brought in legally under specific circumstances only (for US citizens)?

Some divorces aren't simply executed out of care for monetary redistribution but can also be done with care for retribution...

[HarveyBoulevard]

3 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It crossed my mind and left which it shouldn't have. I think you're on to something.

All post-Embargo Cuban cigars in the US should be for personal use. It is illegal to sell them or even trade them. I believe you are correct in that they have no realizable market value. 

I don't see why that case can't be made in court. Cuban cigars cannot be considered assets in the US. 

Well, then it gets worse for the guy.  The court would make a finding that he squandered marital assets and broke his fiduciary duty to his spouse.  Like hookers and drugs.  You can't deprive the marriage of assets by spending community funds on illicit or immoral activities.  Then she gets an offset for what the cigars were purchased for...

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

illicit or immoral activities

Are cigars illicit or immoral? Drugs and hookers are both illegal. Cigars aren't. Wouldn't owning excessive clothes, shoes or food be in the same category? 

 

8 hours ago, Jeanff said:

Could the cigars be deemed as illegal possessions if they were bought outside of the few years when they could be brought in legally under specific circumstances only (for US citizens)?

Some divorces aren't simply executed out of care for monetary redistribution but can also be done with care for retribution...

They were always legal to bring in under certain circumstances until September 2020, but they could never be imported by shipment into the US. Must be on the person when returning.

However just showing purchase records it wouldn't be clear that they were shipped in to the US. It's only a purchase record. The transaction could have occurred overseas. Or you could have purchased them in the US and travelled to pick them up. Both allowed. I don't think it's possible to establish a crime by purchase records alone. 

However they would still be restricted to personal use when in the US. Still no realizable market value.

[Ken Gargett]

2 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

I have seen couples fight about the value of her make-up collection, shoes, handbags, etc.  I have seen couples fight about the value of his guns, ammo, cigars, booze, etc.  My wife knows about my cigar collection, sans 1492 humidors and the like, and if we were to get divorced, I can guarantee she would spend the time to find out the value using BR et al.  As I said, all a matter of the value of marital assets.  The higher the value, the harder the fight.

The courts don't care about purchase price of houses or cars...they care about current market value.

However, the answer to Rob's question is 'piss in the wind'

when i was living in the states, i remember something like this coming up (i am a lawyer and was working for a law firm at the time, though i am not admitted in the US). one of the "items" which was the subject of the most acrimony and which was fought over tooth and nail in a number of divorces, was not art work or the family dog but season tickets to the giants.

i would imagine these days that such an item would not feature quite so dramatically. 

[GoodStix]

12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

...i am a lawyer and was working for a law firm at the time...

 What area of practice, Ken?  (btw, very much enjoy your reviews, thx)

[HarveyBoulevard]

37 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Are cigars illicit or immoral? Drugs and hookers are both illegal. Cigars aren't. Wouldn't owning excessive clothes, shoes or food be in the same category? 

Depending on where you live, drugs and hookers are legal.  They are still deemed 'immoral' by the court for purposed of monies spent from the marriage.  You reference CC being of no legal value.  If you spend marital assets on items of no value like say, gambling (or worthless cigars), again, you are looting the marital assets and will be penalized.

Clothes and shoes are assets with value and are deemed 'personal items' by a court.  Depending on values, they can be calculated into the division of assets.  Cigars are not going to be given that status.  Food is not even in the same realm so no real value in discussing that one.

The word 'excessive' appears above and that throws another monkey wrench into things.  A handbag collection worth 150k is going to pose a problem.  A few LV bags isn't going to matter.  A few boxes of cigars are not likely going to be an issue.  300 boxes might will be an issue.  Especially if you spend 90k on 'worthless' cigars.

This is not an issue of first impression here.  The courts have been dealing with this stuff for ages.  CC either have a calculated value or you have mismanaged funds and either way, the court will attempt to reach and equitable outcome.

[Fuzz AI]

Then take her shoes and handbags!

[WarriorPrincess]

18 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Then take her shoes and handbags!

Wash your mouth out Fuzz....how could you 

[dominattorney]

Literally, don't ever try to answer this question. I dont do family law either for reasons identical to @HarveyBoulevard. I'm just about to start a criminal trial so this is the reassurance I need that I've chosen the correct line of work. Anyway, for gags and lollies.....

Purchase records will be in what form? I'll tells ya. Credit card receipts. Awful luck that'll be, provided his are in the same hilariously incriminating format to which we [redacted on advice of counsel]. So, you seem to spend several hundred dollars between the hours of 7 and 9 pm every weeknight, all in the same place, with a comical [redacted on advice of counsel] name.....seems legit. No, move along officer, nothing to see here. 

Dude probably just needs to plead the fifth, tbh. Rock and a hard place because admitting the reality of what i can only assume to be his dark truth to a judge would tend to expose him to criminal liability. Can't hide it either, as that would be dishonest, presumably run afoul of some awful family law divorce court rule, and also be contemptuous of the judges order in the case. At least where I come from you can do six months on a contempt bid, and if you don't purge it they'll sign you up for a repeat, ad nauseum.

But go ahead, I guess, and try to lie. Judges are renown for their sense of humor. 

On the bright side, the best advice is always free. If you can't say something that won't put you in hot water, count to five and shut up. If it were any more complicated than that, my hourly fee for wasting my time with family law is 1.5 boxes of CoLa or 2 Sir Winston's. What the hell, I'll give a favorable exchange rate. 

 

I went off brief. To answer @El Presidente' original question, they do have to go literally hog wild with the Hague to subpoena a foreign company's records. And even then they'd have to know what company to subpoena. The monkey won't talk. I know a guy who tried to serve a summons on a Chinese company for a products defect case and was told the average turn around time is 2 years. I assume OZ is not as bad. But as others have said, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Unless the attorney is on meth and has a limitless bankroll and marching orders to set the world on fire at any cost, it's piss in the wind. 

[Fuzz AI]

22 minutes ago, WarriorPrincess said:

Wash your mouth out Fuzz....how could you 

Sorry but, fair's fair, Di. If an ex wife is gonna take a guy's cigars just for spite, turnaround is fair play. A pair of used Jimmy Choos will pay for a box of cigars.

It's what I'd do if I were ever to get divorced and in that kind of situation (not likely as I'd have to get married first). Besides, think about all my wonderful female friends who would end up with free luxury handbags and shoes! 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

You reference CC being of no legal value. 

Not worthless but of no realizable market value. I don't know of any other item (Cuban products) that is similar in that sense. Even if they could be assigned value by an expert he is prohibited by law from realizing that value. So technically not worthless but an item that is impossible to place a value on. By law, they cannot be brought to market or liquidated. 

 

29 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

Purchase records will be in what form? I'll tells ya. Credit card receipts. Awful luck that'll be, provided his are in the same hilariously incriminating format to which we [redacted on advice of counsel].

If the transactions took place between Jan 17 and Sep 20 it would not have been illegal to purchase CCs--only to import via shipment. As I pointed out it would be impossible to rule out the cigars purchased having been brought to the US properly on his or someone's person based on purchase records alone. I suppose an OFAC or DHS investigation could determine he didn't travel anywhere but I don't think that's realistic in this case...or many cases. 

Of course if the transactions took place between 1962 and 2016 it would have been illegal to purchase CCs outside of Cuba.