Pre Embargo’s

[Christiphersj]

[Puros Y Vino]

Hell of a first post.  That is quite the treasure.  And in it's original glassine as well. Why don't you introduce yourself to the forum? 

[smbauerllc]

Very nice.
I was fortunate enough to be generously gifted about a dozen pre-embargo cigars from someone and it was a very neat experience smoking Cigars from the 40's to early 60's.

All were U.S. manufacture with all Cuban tobacco, so pretty cool.

Almost saved the last one just to have an example of them, but smoked it instead as it was meant to be.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

[Bijan]

According to this the brand died out around the time of the great depression. So that would be pretty old:

https://lexhistory.org/wikilex/henry-clay-cigars

[teamrandr]

Open that badboy up!

[SCgarman]

Nice for a novelty, but unless properly humidified for how many decades old likely unsmokable

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

According to this the brand died out around the time of the great depression. So that would be pretty old:

Yes, Henry Clay went belly up long before the Rev. Very unusual to see an intact box, let alone a sealed box.

[El Presidente]

Hopefully you have great provenance on them. 

There is a racket out of Spain/France doing a nice job on these and selling them into the US market. We have seen plenty of good people dismayed when they found out they had compromised collections. 

[99call]

Finding legit Henry Clay, sealed and open is not too rare in the Netherlands, Belgium and France.   Gladly fraudsters usually steer clear, as so many of them are small figurados or in cello, and it's just too much bother for them.

With the box listed, it would be interesting to do a spit/alcohol swab on the outside of the glassine paper.  this looks like it's from a heavy smokers house.   If the discolouration is on the inside of the glassine, then the contents has probably been pretty hot room baked. 

Interestingly some of what looks like the earliest fakes focused on Monte's and Henry Clays.  and have the same style of BS packaging. 

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

Interestingly some of what looks like the earliest fakes focused on Monte's and Henry Clays.

That Henry Clay looks like it was made yesterday. Trying to pass that off as a 80-90 year old box--uh, no. 

Didn't even get the warranty seal right. 

The problem with people paying top dollar for pre-Rev cigars is that they typically know what they're doing. Good luck fooling them.

[Bijan]

35 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The problem with people paying top dollar for pre-Rev cigars is that they typically know what they're doing. Good luck fooling them.

I think you might be surprised. I think Rob said 90% of that market is Fugazis.

[El Presidente]

43 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

The problem with people paying top dollar for pre-Rev cigars is that they typically know what they're doing. Good luck fooling them.

I have seen it happen more than a few times.  Generally US buyers with a ton of enthusiasm and money looking to build up a vintage collection quickly. 

People out $80-$100K on Pre Rev and Cuban Davi/Dunhill once they reviewed their collection 3-4 years down the track. . It starts out with one box that is confirmed fake and then the thread unravels as they find out that they have been led on by the same sources over a number of years. They are genuinely gutted. Good people dudded. 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

People out $80-$100K on Pre Rev and Cuban Davi/Dunhill

I suppose Dunhill and Davidoff attracts more than it's share of fools. You should not be playing in that sandbox unless you know what you're doing. 

I don't know why someone would be interested in something like Henry Clay if they don't have a clue. 

[El Presidente]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I suppose Dunhill and Davidoff attracts more than it's share of fools. You should not be playing in that sandbox unless you know what you're doing. 

I don't know why someone would be interested in something like Henry Clay if they don't have a clue. 

There is a window in this hobby of ours where people go nuts for 2-3 years and buy a shite load of stuff that they later look back on and go "if I had my time again". it's natural. 

Those with serious coin fall head over heel like the rest of us. The lure to pick up some vintage stock quickly often occurs before they realy understand the sandtraps laid out by those who feed off this enthusiasm. 

Sealed box of HDM or Maria G from the 50's......it's not even that expensive......$600-$1000, what a fantastic pick up! What a great talking point to my new collection!

The scammers seldom shoot too high in terms of pricing. They make them look like a bargain.  It is a well laid out trap. 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

39 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Sealed box of HDM or Maria G from the 50's......it's not even that expensive......$600-$1000, what a fantastic pick up! What a great talking point to my new collection!

I know you're right, but wouldn't the first thing that comes to mind be to make sure you don't buy fakes? 

It just baffles me that anyone who values something like that in their collection wouldn't know to verify authenticity. Would anyone buy fine art or baseball cards or coins or anything for that matter without considering what they're buying might not be real? Anyone who has been in the cigar game for long enough to appreciate pre-Rev items has to be aware that fakes are rampant. 

I guess I'm still surprised at people's level of ignorance.

[99call]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

without considering what they're buying might not be real? Anyone who has been in the cigar game for long enough to appreciate pre-Rev items has to be aware that fakes are rampant. 

I guess I'm still surprised at people's level of ignorance.

I think the word "ignorance" is a little harsh when considering the batshit crazy lengths fraudsters are going to these days.  I think it's important to divide modern day fraudsters into two different categories, run of the mill,  low level con men with little to no knowledge of cigars......and the second category, which appears to be a whole different level of people that almost get off taking it to an artisan counterfeit level,  the same level of attention to detail being seen in the high value booze world. 

When you have people buying original cabinets, sanding them, trying to remove distinguishing features, removing original seals, replacing them with other original seals from other donor boxes,  re lacquering cabs,  sourcing antique cabinet keys/ribbons,  re-banding cigars with NOS bands, finding actual old cigars from other brands as donor cigars etc etc......well they have pulled the wool over lots of peoples eyes who would consider themselves specialists.

Sadly one of the current factors in the market, is some of the people who buy these things are so disgustingly rich, that it's like raining down 1k chips on a roulette wheel.  If you pulled them aside and said "mate, you've just bought a cab of fake cigars of £30k"  they'd likely just return a shrug of the shoulders and say, "ah well!..... If I keep on buying them, eventually one of them will be real".  

I will say this however, I agree with you on the point, that if you have a genuine passion for Cuban cigars, and you've spent a good 10-20 years doing so,  that person should be empowered with the one golden rule you need..........if it looks too good to be true.......99% of the time it is. 

[MrBirdman]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It just baffles me that anyone who values something like that in their collection wouldn't know to verify authenticity.

Oh I believe it - don’t underestimate the power of denial. People studying the relationship between forgers in artwork or wine and their customers often find that there is a kind of denial or willingness on the part of the “dupee.” They are unconsciously willing to accept situations that are probably too good to be true because they want to believe they have a desirable piece of history or craftsmanship.

Good documentaries to watch for illustration are Sour Grapes about the infamous wine forger Rudy Kurniawan and Netflix’s Made You Look about the abstract expressionism forgery scandal.

[99call]

27 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

They are unconsciously willing to accept situations that are probably too good to be true because they want to believe they have a desirable piece of history or craftsmanship.

Yeah, I think you're spot on with this,  I imagine they are just like trinkets of the playboy raconteur lifestyle to many billionaires. They've probably got minimal interest, but want to be spending their cash like old money would.

[SCgarman]

About what year were the boxes stopped being wrapped in the glassine paper? 

[NSXCIGAR]

13 hours ago, NYgarman said:

About what year were the boxes stopped being wrapped in the glassine paper? 

I would imagine it could have been up to the Rev. These were private companies doing as they pleased. And since it's difficult to determine a cigar's date between 1931 and 1961 that may be a question only a pre-Rev expert could answer.