interesting look at current US/Cuba relations from Newsweek

[MMarbs]

I think the embargo should end - completely. Not just softened; not because I think it should end in the name of "human rights" and "self-determination", which are terms that I think have mostly become empty platitudes and pious camp, but because the Soviet Union is DEAD. The embargo made sense during the cold war when the Soviet Union existed and heavily funded movements - and regimes - in Latin America that were a threat to the U.S.'s vital strategic interests in the Western Hemisphere. That threat is gone. By normalizing relations with Cuba, the U.S. can prevent Cuba from becoming another satellite for a current adversary (China) that can potentially threaten their vital strategic interests. Cuba has had over half a century in experimenting with a planned economy; it's been a disaster, just like every other planned economy. The Cuban regime, I believe, deep down knows this, and ending the embargo could probably speed up the process of Cuba moving away from that type of economy and trying some political reforms.

Yes, I am coming at this from cold, real-politick. It smacks of Machiavellian realism, I know, but I am convinced that realism is the correct approach for states in international relations.   

[Huckleberry]

I don't know who said it but it certainly needs to start with the Cuban people, marching against their owners, which is their own government.  I hate to say I agree with that because I know what will be in store for those people in their own country: imprisonment, torture, death, and destruction.  I don't want that for any human being; however, it would certainly show the world where the true evil lies. 

Many have forgotten in their criticism of the perceived great Satan, that it was the United States Government who handed the country over to the Cuban people after helping her claim liberty from Spain in the first place.  We didn't remain there, we helped them obtain liberty, and then made sure that liberty was given to the people and country.  I am pretty sure Rob just posted a history lesson on these happenings in another thread.  Of course I could have easily read that all wrong as well.

The counties with the most concentration of Cubans in Florida are Miami-Dade, Broward, Hillsborough, and Palm Beach. Together, these counties account for more than half of all Cubans in the United States. 

 

I didn't think there were any Republicans that lived in these counties in the first place.  Why are y'all blaming them?  It seems like the democrats would be the party losing all the votes. 

[Corylax18]

26 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Of course I could have easily read that all wrong as well.

Yes, you missed quite a bit regarding the US-Cuba relationship immediately pre Fidel. 

If you aren't familiar with Fulgencio Batista, you should acquaint yourself. He was a horrible human being, and he was propped up/funded by the US Government and the Mob. US companies owned the sugar fields, the mob ran the Casino's and Racetracks. Tobacco was grown and shipped to Florida to be rolled into cigars. We stuck around and extracted everything of value we could, for as long as we could. Just like we do in every country that we "liberate." We wore out our welcome, big time. Fidel offered an alternative, the people bought it. It turned out Fidel was lying. 

People are mentioning/blaming Republicans because they use the issues to gain political favor in south florida. You're right, those counties aren't particularly "red" which is why every vote is so important. If you've paid attention to any US election the last 20 years or so, Florida is always mentioned and always relatively close. Some how its become a "party line" vote when ever its discussed. I cant explain why that happened, only 1 or 2 senators and a handful of State Reps need the political capitol. Even less than that per election cycle. I'm not trying to bash republicans or support democrats, both parties are deeply flawed.

[Deeg]

Ken, just as a general rule I would be extremely cautious about anything you read on Newsweek.  Those of us who were around when it was one of the premier print news sources around know it once had major influence, but that Newsweek is long dead.  It's basically a conspiracy rag and totally unreliable now.

https://newrepublic.com/article/158968/newsweek-rise-zombie-magazine

 

[Ken Gargett]

59 minutes ago, Deeg said:

Ken, just as a general rule I would be extremely cautious about anything you read on Newsweek.  Those of us who were around when it was one of the premier print news sources around know it once had major influence, but that Newsweek is long dead.  It's basically a conspiracy rag and totally unreliable now.

https://newrepublic.com/article/158968/newsweek-rise-zombie-magazine

 

sadly one can say that about so much of the once respected media. now, for many, instead of looking at a range of views put forward by journos respected on all sides, it seems that most of us now only read and respect those which support our own views (this is a general comment and not intended in any way to reflect on your view of newsweek, which i am not disputing). all part of the tragic demise of quality journalism. 

 

[BellevilleMXZ]

My 2 cents, and while I am certainly NO expert, my thoughts are this. If Cuba wants to say the US , is hurting them so bad by this, then drop it. Then what can they do? Who is left to blame? By what they claim, things should drastically get better for the average Cuban? When that doesn't happen(and I'm sure it won't) then this will come back to bite them in the ass. I would think, IMO, that things will have to change as there is no excuse now. I know a few Cubans that I have talked to over the years think the US is to "blame" for the way things are....some not all....but some I have talked to anyway think that way. This will open some eyes down there, and there might be a harder push for change sooner than later. As it sits now, certainly seems like a stalemate. Certainly there are FAR worse places that the US deals with, and Canada included in that, than Cuba. Christ look at China?? I think its time just to drop this nonsense with Cuba and move on.     

[Huckleberry]

5 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Yes, you missed quite a bit regarding the US-Cuba relationship immediately pre Fidel. 

If you aren't familiar with Fulgencio Batista, you should acquaint yourself. He was a horrible human being, and he was propped up/funded by the US Government and the Mob. US companies owned the sugar fields, the mob ran the Casino's and Racetracks. Tobacco was grown and shipped to Florida to be rolled into cigars. We stuck around and extracted everything of value we could, for as long as we could. Just like we do in every country that we "liberate." We wore out our welcome, big time. Fidel offered an alternative, the people bought it. It turned out Fidel was lying. 

People are mentioning/blaming Republicans because they use the issues to gain political favor in south florida. You're right, those counties aren't particularly "red" which is why every vote is so important. If you've paid attention to any US election the last 20 years or so, Florida is always mentioned and always relatively close. Some how its become a "party line" vote when ever its discussed. I cant explain why that happened, only 1 or 2 senators and a handful of State Reps need the political capitol. Even less than that per election cycle. I'm not trying to bash republicans or support democrats, both parties are deeply flawed.

I know all about that relationship.  

I am very familiar with the facts regarding and surrounding Batista.

I’m not an American apologist.  Many other barbarians in this world that nobody ever wants to take to task.  Always America’s fault, like we were the ones that sent Columbus to discover and rape and pillage the new world.  Crack my ass up.  

That wasn’t contained in the story Rob had posted about their initial fight for Independence against Spain.  I stopped it there because that’s what Rob’s story regarding the secret cigar was in regards to, around 1903.

I strongly dislike the Castro regime and the Che Guevara’s of the world.  They rise up as if they were the friend of the poor and downtrodden, while preparing to make it worse for all but themselves.  Yet many hold them up as if they were folk heroes.  Free to do that of course, I just have no interest in making them out to be saints.  They steal riches and wealth from their own people and blame it on America.

I’m for getting rid of the embargo and making their ineffectual form of government be accountable for their own failed ideology and its disastrous effects on its people.

Then it will be our fault that we dropped the embargo.  Like I said to each their own.  

I want all people to be free and enjoy as much liberty as is able to be found in the world today.

[Fuzz]

55 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

They rise up as if they were the friend of the poor and downtrodden, while preparing to make it worse for all but themselves.  Yet many hold them up as if they were folk heroes.  Free to do that of course, I just have no interest in making them out to be saints.  They steal riches and wealth from their own people.....

 

You just described every politician on the planet!

[Corylax18]

5 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I know all about that relationship.  

I am very familiar with the facts regarding and surrounding Batista.

I’m not an American apologist.  Many other barbarians in this world that nobody ever wants to take to task.  Always America’s fault, like we were the ones that sent Columbus to discover and rape and pillage the new world.  Crack my ass up.  

That wasn’t contained in the story Rob had posted about their initial fight for Independence against Spain.  I stopped it there because that’s what Rob’s story regarding the secret cigar was in regards to, around 1903.

I strongly dislike the Castro regime and the Che Guevara’s of the world.  They rise up as if they were the friend of the poor and downtrodden, while preparing to make it worse for all but themselves.  Yet many hold them up as if they were folk heroes.  Free to do that of course, I just have no interest in making them out to be saints.  They steal riches and wealth from their own people and blame it on America.

I’m for getting rid of the embargo and making their ineffectual form of government be accountable for their own failed ideology and its disastrous effects on its people.

Then it will be our fault that we dropped the embargo.  Like I said to each their own.  

I want all people to be free and enjoy as much liberty as is able to be found in the world today.

While I agree that the US isn't to blame for every Ill, everywhere on the planet. There is no Truth that absolves us of our Influence in/over Cuba for the last 120+ years. 

I agree, Fidel was a horrible person, Guevara even worse. I've never understood Ernesto's cult status, he was an assassin, with very little moral fiber or real devotion to any one cause. Little more than a hired gun, certainly not a leader or true revolutionary. 

The Cuban population was desperate for a change. Fidel devoted his life to giving it to them. The problem's only started when Fidel's real desires started being exposed. He didn't win his first (and only) election by pushing communism and telling everyone he was going to steal their stuff. That all started well after he got rid of Bautista. 

This next paragraph may be unpopular, but I dont care. I gained some respect for Fidel and Raul when I climbed Pico Turquino (tallest mountain in Cuba) and up to Commendancia de la Plata. It was the day after thanksgiving, 2017. It was about 95F and roughly the same percentage humidity. I had some water, some snacks and a "colorado custom roll" in my bag, and it was still a long arduous hike up the hill. Sweaty, Muddy, Buggy. The fact that these guys hiked up and down that mountain every day, in fatigues, carrying everything they needed up with them. Its impressive, regardless of who did it. Nobody believed they would be stupid (or tough) enough to be there, so the military bombed just about every other square foot of that mountain range. Fidel was smart Savvy and Hard working, he earned it, more than most other world leaders have. Its unfortunate he choose to use those gifts and the power they afforded him to do what he did. 

I would be fine if the embargo was gone tomorrow, but it wont fix Cuba. Any lifting of Sanctions will have to be paired with concessions from the Government. Neither government will budge, so we get continued impasse. I don't see either government making major capitulations in the near future. 

 

[Ryan]

Batista brought out a quite progressive constitution in 1940. It included guarantees of an independent judiciary, minimum wage, guarantees of property ownership and other rights, access to public education etc. Many Cubans that I have talked to about it still regard it as a good constitution, especially for the time. Fidel Castro promised to reinstate it as one of his main aims in 1953. Of course, that changed.

However Batista's outlook changed after he started getting a taste. I think it's safe to say that it is widely accepted that he put the interests of foreign companies and organisations (legitimate and otherwise) over the well being of his own citizens. Largely for personal enrichment and that of his friends.

Revolutions don't succeed in places where most people are happy. I think of this when I see videos of Havana in the 1950s and how modern it looks, how the people look happy, and I see present day Cubans and Cuban Americans expressing how things were so much better back then. Castro got off the beach in 1956 with no more than 20 men. 3 years later he had enough support to rout the army. That doesn't happen with a population that was previously happy.

And that's the thing. Cubans for most of their history lived under foreign influence. Spain, Britain, Spain, The US and then foreign organisations. I don't think I'm stating anything revelatory there.

For many, if not most Cubans, they regard the 1950s revolution (for Cubans, the current revolution) as theirs. Their own, home-grown, successful struggle to remove centuries of outside influence. I can understand that, we had something similar here. I think most people who live in former colonies can understand that. After Ireland's independence in 1921, most of us lived in abject poverty for the first 70 years due to successive rubbish governments, the best hope for anyone leaving school or college was to emigrate, but there was certainly never again any popular support for rejoining Britain. Independence was, and is, more important than wealth or even success.

For many Cubans, they see the embargo as another attempt by a foreign entity to exert control over their country. That is certainly what they are all taught, and it is hard to argue with. The wish to retain independence galvanises support for a rubbish government.

Personally, I think if the current government in Cuba were no longer able to use the embargo as a tool of propaganda (and it's not just propaganda, they can argue that it is an attempt by a foreign entity to exert control and force change from outside), change would come very quickly. No more Emperor's new clothes.

 

 

[TobaccoRoad]

I'm as apolitical as they come. I hate politics and I hate politicians. After reading through this thread the only comments I have are naive but honest.

1- The Cuban embargo has been in place for longer than the 57 years I've been on the planet. It hasn't worked. The regime is still in place and the political system has not changed. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Then it is insanity to continue the embargo and expecting things to change.

2- Cuba is our neighbor. If any of us had a next door neighbor that we did not like. To make it real, say they were profligate drug addicts, blights on society and the complete antithesis of what we stand for and believe. Could we still stand by and watch their children starve? Even if the children's plight was due to the profligacy of the parents we abhor. No, any normal human being would attempt to help the children. Even if it meant helping the parents too. Standing by and watching the Cuban people struggle to find the basic human needs and doing nothing to help is wrong. Even if you don't agree with the leadership.

Again I know this is naive and over-simplified. But I cannot help but feel this way.

 

[Cairo]

1 hour ago, TobaccoRoad said:

they were profligate drug addicts, blights on society and the complete antithesis of what we stand for and believe. Could we still stand by and watch their children starve? Even if the children's plight was due to the profligacy of the parents we abhor. No, any normal human being would attempt to help the children

This is not a comment on Cuba at all--just your post.     Have you actually had a neighbor like this and tried this in the real world?      I suspect that the old saying "no good deed goes unpunished" would probably be the result.         "Normal human beings" attempt charity/intervention from time to time and most of us get our fingers burned on the hot stove.

[Huckleberry]

15 hours ago, Fuzz said:

You just described every politician on the planet!

Yah, I am not a huge fan of politicians.  I just always have a good chuckle over why Republicans are the blame for everything in the US.  Reminds me of a speech Malcom X gave right before he was assassinated, if folks haven't heard it before, they should give it a listen, dude was no idiot, and in the case of the speech I am referring to, he certainly was not wrong.

Again, I am not saying the US has not played a huge role in Cuba, tends to happen when the very big brother, and the extremely small brother, aren't allowed to leave the neighborhood they grew up in.

A person (s) can be admired for their military planning, physical exertion, and intestinal fortitude while also being held accountable for being just plain bad people.

 

7 hours ago, TobaccoRoad said:

I'm as apolitical as they come. I hate politics and I hate politicians. After reading through this thread the only comments I have are naive but honest.

1- The Cuban embargo has been in place for longer than the 57 years I've been on the planet. It hasn't worked. The regime is still in place and the political system has not changed. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Then it is insanity to continue the embargo and expecting things to change.

2- Cuba is our neighbor. If any of us had a next door neighbor that we did not like. To make it real, say they were profligate drug addicts, blights on society and the complete antithesis of what we stand for and believe. Could we still stand by and watch their children starve? Even if the children's plight was due to the profligacy of the parents we abhor. No, any normal human being would attempt to help the children. Even if it meant helping the parents too. Standing by and watching the Cuban people struggle to find the basic human needs and doing nothing to help is wrong. Even if you don't agree with the leadership.

Again I know this is naive and over-simplified. But I cannot help but feel this way.

 

Unfortunately when the parents are bad, most of the time anyway, the things you do to help the children only help the parents.  Lots of bad policy has been spawned with the phrases, "help the children, do it for the kids, starving kids in Africa, if it saves just one" etc. etc. etc. etc.

One might find my phrase callous, I can assure you it is not meant to be, and I believe history has shown us we should be cautious here.

There is no way, anyone can be assured anything they do in or purportedly for Cuba will ever "help the children".  A prime example is the negro cubano ethnic group in Cuba.  If whatever is done doesn't help them, then what is being done simply isn't worth doing.  Good old Che's incensed hatred of those with dark skin tones has left a lasting legacy of terrible treatment of that population of people on the island.

[NSXCIGAR]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:26 AM, Corylax18 said:

If you've paid attention to any US election the last 20 years or so, Florida is always mentioned and always relatively close. Some how its become a "party line" vote when ever its discussed. I cant explain why that happened, only 1 or 2 senators and a handful of State Reps need the political capitol. Even less than that per election cycle. I'm not trying to bash republicans or support democrats, both parties are deeply flawed.

I think it did start in 2000 with FL becoming a battleground state. Ending the Embargo wasn't really a topic of conversation until around then anyway. The US had just clamped down even harder with Helms-Burton just a few years before in 1996. That act was overwhelmingly passed after the Cuban fighter jets shot down those humanitarian planes. Say what you want, but Cuba hasn't exactly helped their cause in many instances. 

By the time people started really questioning the Embargo in the early 2000s the damage had already been done by the 2000 election. Both parties became too afraid to lose FL to fight for a policy change. Even Obama had to wait until he had one foot out the door to make any changes and then sure enough, FL goes Trump's way in 2016 with huge success in Miami-Dade. 

18 hours ago, TobaccoRoad said:

Could we still stand by and watch their children starve?

No, and the charity system we have set up is child protective services comes in and relocates the children. Unfortunately, that would amount to an invasion of a country in this case. 

Geopolitics is a complicated game. In my opinion, all we can do is end the Embargo and try and educate and enlighten the Cuban people through exposure and hope for a Soviet-style collapse. 

Even if there was a revolution what are we going to do, supply them with weapons? That hasn't gone so well in the past in any country. Our interventions have almost always had terribly negative unintended consequences, not to mention there are still many Cubans that do not trust the US. 

[mprach024]

This threads title should be renamed “Going in Circles”.

@Elpresidente was spot on when he says the end of this starts in Cuba.  It won’t start in the USA.  Right or wrong there’s no advantage for any government officials career (which is all they care about) to start a movement to end the embargo.  When the town square in Havana is full of people, there will be a lot of ways the USA and many other countries would reach out to support.  We’ve seen this in other fallen dictatorships, but the momentum must start with the people.  

I’m not a fan of dropping the embargo and crossing our fingers change happens as some suggest.  Too much history people are forgetting/omitting.  I will say, I wish the US was looking at other ways to punish/combat/pressure the Cuban government besides a full scale embargo.  Surely there’s better and more effective methods these days than what was conjured up in a hurry in the 60s.  Clearly this method didn’t achieve its goal, and instead it’s now just a long drawn out punishment.  

Still, the argument of the US should go out of its way here is sadly just not realistic.  I agree it’s very sad and I’m definitely not saying I’m cold to what the Cuban people are dealing with as I do wish things were different.  It’s just not going to happen.  Politicians only care about votes and money, and neither exist here for them.  To the Americans in every state outside of Florida this is just a nonissue, a trivia answer, and for the Americans and Cuban-Americans in Florida its largely pro-embargo.

Win the hearts and minds of the US people and maybe there will be a groundswell of support.  Only the Cuban people can do that.  Cuban Government propaganda will continue to be ignored completely and not even make the back pages of a newspaper.

[Ken Gargett]

4 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

This threads title should be renamed “Going in Circles”.

@Elpresidente was spot on when he says the end of this starts in Cuba.  It won’t start in the USA.  Right or wrong there’s no advantage for any government officials career (which is all they care about) to start a movement to end the embargo.  When the town square in Havana is full of people, there will be a lot of ways the USA and many other countries would reach out to support.  We’ve seen this in other fallen dictatorships, but the momentum must start with the people.  

I’m not a fan of dropping the embargo and crossing our fingers change happens as some suggest.  Too much history people are forgetting/omitting.  I will say, I wish the US was looking at other ways to punish/combat/pressure the Cuban government besides a full scale embargo.  Surely there’s better and more effective methods these days than what was conjured up in a hurry in the 60s.  Clearly this method didn’t achieve its goal, and instead it’s now just a long drawn out punishment.  

Still, the argument of the US should go out of its way here is sadly just not realistic.  I agree it’s very sad and I’m definitely not saying I’m cold to what the Cuban people are dealing with as I do wish things were different.  It’s just not going to happen.  Politicians only care about votes and money, and neither exist here for them.  To the Americans in every state outside of Florida this is just a nonissue, a trivia answer, and for the Americans and Cuban-Americans in Florida its largely pro-embargo.

Win the hearts and minds of the US people and maybe there will be a groundswell of support.  Only the Cuban people can do that.  Cuban Government propaganda will continue to be ignored completely and not even make the back pages of a newspaper.

absolutely right about going around in circles. there have been many such threads over the history of FoH and i doubt a single mind changed. 

that said, leaving it to the cubans is simply cruel. most cubans have very little but they know that if they start filling the town square they'll lose that. and possibly their lives. 

the reality is that spineless politicians and bureaucrats will do nothing and that is going to be the way until most of us are buried. one side might make an effort but the other will reverse that for political expediency. i remember being in a club in havana late one night shortly after obama's visit and his attempts to do something. the crowd would hold chants in his name and his honour, literally sing songs to him. people had tears pouring down their face. the sheer joy that the US might finally remove the iniquitous embargo was almost too much for some. i had never seen anything like it. of course, politics overcame all that. likely will do so for years. fully agree that no advantage to politicians and administrators in doing anything. so nothing will happen. 

but what i could not more fiercely disagree with is "I’m not a fan of dropping the embargo and crossing our fingers change happens as some suggest.  Too much history people are forgetting/omitting.". 

sixty years of the embargo have done nothing but hurt the Cuban people and keep their government in power. but you are not sure what might happen so you leave it in place? christ on a stick, i can tell you what will happen. the Cuban people will continue to suffer and the Cuban govt will continue to use the embargo as the excuse. sure, remove the embargo and it won't be an overnight paradise but it is a start. it will be a long hard road but the sooner it starts, the quicker they'll get somewhere. and if they stuff it up themselves, well that is on them. and tough luck, as they say. but for sixty years, they have not had that opportunity. the same opportunity as so many people around the world. why should the US deny them that? 

too much history forgotten/omitted? such as? that sixty years ago, the US drove cuba into the arms of the soviets? perhaps is time people got over that. even if you don't agree that is what happened, whatever did happen was sixty years ago. how much time is needed? or are you talking about something else? 

as for " the argument of the US should go out of its way here is sadly just not realistic.", i am gobsmacked. they went out of their way to impose it. they can at least have the decency to go out of their way to remove it. i am not looking at reparations or even apologies (this crap that we are supposed to apologise for what someone did 300 years ago is utter nonsense. we can agree that their actions were wrong, or not, and we can regret those actions were taken, but it is beyond me as to why i or anyone else should be held responsible for what someone did centuries ago, or sixty years ago). but that does not mean we can't try and repair the damage. especially when doing so is not only the right thing to do but hardly difficult. and when it would actually start the ball rolling on allowing the cuban people to control their own destiny.

perhaps think of it like this - had nazi germany won wwii (and had the mission to destroy the heavy water plant in norway not been successful, every chance that might have happened) and then decided to impose a worldwide embargo and all manner of restrictions and oppression on the US and assume all that was still in place today, leaving the american people poverty-stricken and under the thumb of a cruel government, would the rest of the world not want those restrictions and embargos and so on lifted, especially if the world had changed and the reasons for them in the first place were long gone. 

would you be happy if the rest of the world said, 'well, we think it should happen but we are not going to go out of our way to help'? 

[mprach024]

7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

absolutely right about going around in circles. there have been many such threads over the history of FoH and i doubt a single mind changed. 

that said, leaving it to the cubans is simply cruel. most cubans have very little but they know that if they start filling the town square they'll lose that. and possibly their lives. 

the reality is that spineless politicians and bureaucrats will do nothing and that is going to be the way until most of us are buried. one side might make an effort but the other will reverse that for political expediency. i remember being in a club in havana late one night shortly after obama's visit and his attempts to do something. the crowd would hold chants in his name and his honour, literally sing songs to him. people had tears pouring down their face. the sheer joy that the US might finally remove the iniquitous embargo was almost too much for some. i had never seen anything like it. of course, politics overcame all that. likely will do so for years. fully agree that no advantage to politicians and administrators in doing anything. so nothing will happen. 

but what i could not more fiercely disagree with is "I’m not a fan of dropping the embargo and crossing our fingers change happens as some suggest.  Too much history people are forgetting/omitting.". 

sixty years of the embargo have done nothing but hurt the Cuban people and keep their government in power. but you are not sure what might happen so you leave it in place? christ on a stick, i can tell you what will happen. the Cuban people will continue to suffer and the Cuban govt will continue to use the embargo as the excuse. sure, remove the embargo and it won't be an overnight paradise but it is a start. it will be a long hard road but the sooner it starts, the quicker they'll get somewhere. and if they stuff it up themselves, well that is on them. and tough luck, as they say. but for sixty years, they have not had that opportunity. the same opportunity as so many people around the world. why should the US deny them that? 

too much history forgotten/omitted? such as? that sixty years ago, the US drove cuba into the arms of the soviets? perhaps is time people got over that. even if you don't agree that is what happened, whatever did happen was sixty years ago. how much time is needed? or are you talking about something else? 

as for " the argument of the US should go out of its way here is sadly just not realistic.", i am gobsmacked. they went out of their way to impose it. they can at least have the decency to go out of their way to remove it. i am not looking at reparations or even apologies (this crap that we are supposed to apologise for what someone did 300 years ago is utter nonsense. we can agree that their actions were wrong, or not, and we can regret those actions were taken, but it is beyond me as to why i or anyone else should be held responsible for what someone did centuries ago, or sixty years ago). but that does not mean we can't try and repair the damage. especially when doing so is not only the right thing to do but hardly difficult. and when it would actually start the ball rolling on allowing the cuban people to control their own destiny.

perhaps think of it like this - had nazi germany won wwii (and had the mission to destroy the heavy water plant in norway not been successful, every chance that might have happened) and then decided to impose a worldwide embargo and all manner of restrictions and oppression on the US and assume all that was still in place today, leaving the american people poverty-stricken and under the thumb of a cruel government, would the rest of the world not want those restrictions and embargos and so on lifted, especially if the world had changed and the reasons for them in the first place were long gone. 

would you be happy if the rest of the world said, 'well, we think it should happen but we are not going to go out of our way to help'? 

Going around in circles Kenny.  

I never said the Cuban people SHOULD be the source of momentum, I’m just saying it’ll HAVE to be.

As I stated, I wish there was another method we could use to apply the pressure.  I would be in support of that, not that my support matters.  I’m just not in support of dropping it without replacing it with another strategy.  I guess all things equal, I err to side with the opinions of those that successfully fled Cuba which are largely pro-embargo.    

Once again though, my opinion should be irrelevant to you.  Nothing will change until something strikes the flint and sparks some kindling.  Won’t be here, won’t be in Australia, won’t be in Europe.  No one is fighting the financial implications being levied, there’s no protests in Washington, London, Madrid over this.  They are just all following suit, changing their banks, changing whatever they have to be clear of Cuban involvement.  This has to start in Cuba.  Again not saying it’s fair or right, just speaking reality.  

Round we go.

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Going around in circles Kenny.  

I never said the Cuban people SHOULD be the source of momentum, I’m just saying it’ll HAVE to be.

As I stated, I wish there was another method we could use to apply the pressure.  I would be in support of that, not that my support matters.  I’m just not in support of dropping it without replacing it with another strategy.  I guess all things equal, I err to side with the opinions of those that successfully fled Cuba which are largely pro-embargo.    

Once again though, my opinion should be irrelevant to you.  Nothing will change until something strikes the flint and sparks some kindling.  Won’t be here, won’t be in Australia, won’t be in Europe.  No one is fighting the financial implications being levied, there’s no protests in Washington, London, Madrid over this.  They are just all following suit, changing their banks, changing whatever they have to be clear of Cuban involvement.  This has to start in Cuba.  Again not saying it’s fair or right, just speaking reality.  

Round we go.

your opinion will never be irrelevant to me!

[Chibearsv]

I'll just say that I typed in several paragraphs of musings about this subject and I'm sure I would have sat in the timeout corner or been banned entirely if I had hit the button, so I've simplified my thoughts...corrupt and overreaching governments suck (plural intended).