Maduro class is in.

[El Presidente]

Let's kick this one around 

You don't have to answer all of them. Just chip in with your thoughts?

All contributors with a question, thought, observation/ answer will go into a little draw.  This is about education so raise any questions as they come to your mind that will expand upon the subject.  I am not particularly concerned in what direction the discussion heads. 

To start:

 

Do you find maduro leaf to be sweeter? if so, why do you think it is?

Does cuba make a true maduro?  what is a true maduro? 

What is the difference between a Cohiba Maduro 5 wrapper and a cohiba Robusto wrapper classified as maduro in terms of shade? 

 

[JohnS]

31 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Do you find maduro leaf to be sweeter? if so, why do you think it is?

Does cuba make a true maduro?  what is a true maduro? 

What is the difference between a Cohiba Maduro 5 wrapper and a cohiba Robusto wrapper classified as maduro in terms of shade?

It's a pertinent question, isn't it? What do they actually mean by 'maduro'?

Firstly, yes, the maduro leaf and maduro-type wrappers are sweeter.

Cuba, in my opinion, does make a true maduro because of the way the leaf is grown, picked and prepared.

The difference in the Cohiba Maduro series wrappers and maduro wrapper shade is in the extra time and method used in growing the leaf (in regards to the Cohiba Maduro series).

Some further reading...

 

[El Presidente]

so John, what makes the Maduro leaf sweeter?

[Ritch]

Same thing as makes a really red strawberry sweeter. It's the sunlight and the ripening of the plant.

I have just smoked a secretos. It was smoother, sweeter, a little tort and strong in my opinion.

Does a darker wrapper mean that the nicotine content is stronger?

[jwintosh]

thanks for the extra read John. didn't know there was a maduro wrapper vs maduro shade. so, which is the true Maduro?

[Corylax18]

48 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Let's kick this one around 

You don't have to answer all of them. Just chip in with your thoughts?

All contributors with a question, thought, observation/ answer will go into a little draw.  This is about education so raise any questions as they come to your mind that will expand upon the subject.  I am not particularly concerned in what direction the discussion heads. 

To start:

 

Do you find maduro leaf to be sweeter? if so, why do you think it is?

Does cuba make a true maduro?  what is a true maduro? 

What is the difference between a Cohiba Maduro 5 wrapper and a cohiba Robusto wrapper classified as maduro in terms of shade? 

1. Yes. The additional "cooking time" and higher fermentation temps seem to help remove more of the ammonia and break down the organic matter in the cigar even more than traditional fermentation methods. 

2. I believe so, but like many other Cuban cigar production methods, I cant prove anything. I know that there were (and still are) plenty of NC manufacturers who boil the leaf and don't actually go through the additional time and effort to create true Maduro wrapper. I've never heard of this happening in Cuba, but again, its always possible. 

3. Lack of QC. The drying and fermentation process is arguably as complicated or more then the farming process is. Constant monitoring of temperature and humidity at several locations in the Pilon. Constant fluctuation in external temps and humidity. Lack of true climate control on top of that. Its not easy. As I understand it the shade of the leaf is set in the drying barn, and that the fermentation process has less to do with the final shade of the leaf. I've never heard of a certain type of leaf or plant being used for Maduro, nor the plants being left in the field longer, as far as CC maduros go.

[JohnS]

As Ritch has suggested, the maduro leaf is the very top leaf of the shade-grown plant, and grown under those shade-cloth conditions, I would say ripens the leaf. Compare what happens to the same plant if it is sun-grown. Those leaves at the top are used as the ligero leaves, which in general are spicier and stronger in potency.

From Habanos S.A's website...

Every leaf in a Habano is Tabaco Negro Cubano  – native Cuban Black Tobacco – directly descended from the plants that Columbus first discovered here more than five hundred years ago.

Two distinct forms of cultivation produce the different types of leaf required.

Wrapper leaves are grown in tapado  (shade-grown) fields covered from end to end by muslin cloth.

Filler and binder leaves are grown in the open, enjoying the full benefit of the Cuban sun.

In each case the leaves have different characteristics at different levels of the plant, and each leaf is classified accordingly. Each leaf has its own destiny.

The muslin cover filters the sunlight and traps the heat so the leaves grow larger and finer – perfect conditions for growing the perfect wrapper leaf. Only the largest and finest leaves are selected to make wrappers for Habanos. No surprise that the wrapper is the most expensive leaf to produce.

The full force of Cuban sunlight develops the glorious variety of flavours that are blended to form the rich and complex taste of a Habano.

 

Source: http://www.habanos.com/en/el-mundo-del-habano/la-hoja-ideal-para-cada-proposito/?age-verified=37ecfbf41c

 

[Bill Hayes]

I usually associate maduro wrappers with NC's so have yet to dabble in a CC maduro. I can't get my head around a Cohiba maduro. Doesn't really make sense to me when you consider the flavour profile that I am attracted to with Cohiba. If I was to jump in I would probably try a Partagas to see if some of the Christmas cake flavours that I look for in good Partagas come to the forefront perhaps. I like a maduro wrapper on a NC for a change of pace, especially in colder months when drinking stout or heavy rum.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

1. Yes. The additional "cooking time" and higher fermentation temps seem to help remove more of the ammonia and break down the organic matter in the cigar even more than traditional fermentation methods. 

 

Two questions (for anyone to chime in with, I am just fleshing this out). 

1.  Is darker/maduro "standard leaf" graded and separated from say colorado "standard leaf"

2.  if so,  is darker/maduro "standard" leaf, fermented differently to say colorado "standard" leaf?   

* by standard leaf I mean non Maduro 5 or LE leaf.

[El Presidente]

59 minutes ago, JohnS said:

 

The full force of Cuban sunlight develops the glorious variety of flavours that are blended to form the rich and complex taste of a Habano.

 

and if we were to measure that, how would we go about doing so 

[ayepatz]

I also wonder if there is a visual element to this, after all, we taste first with the eyes, as the saying goes.

Could there be something in the chocolate-colour of a maduro that we associate with sweetness, which primes our brain to expect sweet flavours?

I have had many non-maduro-wrapped cigars which have evinced plenty of sweetness, and more than few maduros which were bitter.

Food for thought, if you'll forgive the pun.

[TBird55]

I am not a big fan of CC maduro's. It may just be psychological., but the few I have tried (Partagas, Cohiba) didn't impress me at all. But I have only smoked a box of each.

 

 

[El Presidente]

10 minutes ago, TBird55 said:

I am not a big fan of CC maduro's. It may just be psychological., but the few I have tried (Partagas, Cohiba) didn't impress me at all. But I have only smoked a box of each.

 

 

 

Is maduro a process or is it a shade

or is it both 

[DeskSmkr]

I thought Maduro NC were sweeter and darker because of extra time fermenting the wrapper leaf causing a conversion of starch to sugar, much like how onions that are not so sweet can be slowly sautéed and they become sweet. Maybe also from growing conditions and being harvested with peak sugar in the leaf?

I’m stating nothing as fact here, just  thoughts for conversation - and experience/impression from tasting the same Dominican vitola in Maduro and regular (can’t remember may have been sun grown or Connecticut) wrapper.

As for CC and Cohiba wrappers I have yet to find out

But in my mind Maduro must be fermented longer.

[KevinH]

19 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

Is maduro a process or is it a shade

or is it both 

I tend to think that maduro is a process. As mentioned above, I believe it is how the leaf is aged/fermented.

[TBird55]

Supposedly from what I  know( which is very little) , a process. That being said I am partial to Colorado with a reddish  hue., nice sheen of course, but  there are exceptions.. 

[Lucass111]

 
Is maduro a process or is it a shade
or is it both 

I believe it would be a little of both. I'm sure they have certain things they do to achieve their desired end product. They may determine if the end product is finished based on the shade.

Also to those who have smoked cuban maduro and non cuban maduro, how do they compare? Or is it apples to oranges?

[Fuzz]

22 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

Is maduro a process or is it a shade

or is it both 

To me, maduro is a process. However, there seems to be a prevalence to use it as a shade description.

As for why maduro may taste sweeter... it's the dye they use!

[NSXCIGAR]

Maduro is a totally subjective classification and has been for decades. Any producer can call any cigar Maduro for any reason. Obviously, it is generally associated with darker wrappers, but standard wrappers can be as dark or darker than maduro wrappers.

I would say that Cuban maduro has quite a bit more credibility as a unique product as HSA has clear stated criteria for their maduro wrappers which specifically is that the wrapper consists of upper tapado leaf that undergoes one additional fermentation. I don't know that any other cigar producer has any clear stated criteria, meaning color alone or even dyed wrapper can be called maduro.

We also don't know for sure if the "sweeter" flavor found in Cuban maduros is due to the wrapper or the blends used in the maduro models. Perhaps those models are intentionally blended sweeter and the maduro wrappers impart little or no sweetness to the flavor. 

2 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Yes. The additional "cooking time" and higher fermentation temps seem to help remove more of the ammonia and break down the organic matter in the cigar even more than traditional fermentation methods. 

I'm not aware that Cuba utilizes longer fermentations or fermentation at higher temps than they do for standard wrapper--only that maduro wrapper is upper tapado leaf that undergoes one additional fermentation. Can you source that claim?

A good thread further discussing maduro wrappers: 

 

[Cayman17]

I started out smoking maduros almost exclusively (non-Cuban). They definitely have a distinct flavor profile, like a semi-sweet cinnamon/baking spice. I assumed it had to do with both shade and aging processes. 

I have not smoked enough Cuban maduros to comment on them. But as far as current non-Cuban cigars go, I think the La Palina maduro line is an excellent representation of what a quality maduro cigar should taste like. 

[mrmessy]

If Maduro leaves are left longer on the plant and have the most sunlight then it should have the best photosynthesis process. Light converts the water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. The more light, the more sugar. And after the long hot fermentation process, the more sugar left in the tobacco.

At least that's the way I understand it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[JohnS]

Incidentally Rob, you must have wondered to yourself, when comparing those wrapper shades on the Cohiba Robusto and Cohiba Maduro 5 Secretos boxes, that they were practically identical Colorado Maduro shade in colour.

In regards to Maduro wrapper shades on the Cohiba Maduro 5 series, those Secretos' are lighter than standard, I would say, but those Cohiba Robustos are definitely darker than normal for standard Cohiba which on average would utilise Colorado Claro wrappers.

[Islandboy]

10 minutes ago, Cayman17 said:

I started out smoking maduros almost exclusively (non-Cuban). They definitely have a distinct flavor profile, like a semi-sweet cinnamon/baking spice. I assumed it had to do with both shade and aging processes. 

I have not smoked enough Cuban maduros to comment on them. But as far as current non-Cuban cigars go, I think the La Palina maduro line is an excellent representation of what a quality maduro cigar should taste like. 

I’m in the same boat, started out going after NC maduros after discovering them, because of the richness of taste. But I don’t really associate them with being sweeter, in general anyway. Some were, but most were just stronger. These days I can’t really handle the sledgehammer strength of a typical NC maduro - I find many CC’s to be significantly sweeter than any NC maduro I’ve had.

I’m also under the impression that a maduro wrapper is nearly black, again, from my early experiences with NC’s. Which makes it hard to wrap my head around the existence of a maduro Lancero, or even CoRo.

 

[Andy04]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Based upon my experience growing and fermenting...

Do you find maduro leaf to be sweeter? if so, why do you think it is?

Maduro should not be sweeter as the sugars in the leaf have been further broken down.  Maduro should be smoother/plainer and less peppery on the lips, but not so sure about sweeter.

 

Does cuba make a true maduro?  what is a true maduro? 

True maduro is not a shade of wrapper, rather the outcome of the fermentation process.  Maduro could be defined as either double or triple fermented until the stack is unable to further emit heat.

ie. you could potentially snap cure a leaf to a candela shade, and still ferment using the maduro method.

Due to the heat emitted during a double or triple fermentation, from experience I have had issues with shade grown leaf as to become to brittle during the process (fermentation is essentially controlled decomposting of the leaf), so double or triple fermentation is best using a thicker leaf from the bottom of the plant, or a sun grown leaf.

 

What is the difference between a Cohiba Maduro 5 wrapper and a cohiba Robusto wrapper classified as maduro in terms of shade? 

Potentially the wrapper leaf used the CoRo is a strain that shade cures to a darker shade, whereby the Cohiba Maduro wrapper is fermented in larger stacks so that the leaf stays at a higher temperature for a longer length of time (or is triple fermented, but I doubt that).

 

 

[busdriver]

I enjoy Cohiba and Partagas Maduros since they are on the sweeter side to my palate, which I enjoy.  In fact,  I am not a big fan of partagas or cohiba regular lines other than Maduros.

That said, I rarely find Cohiba Maduros with sheen on the wrapper, does this have to do with the extra fermentation time?  Our host has mentioned that sheen will stay on cigars for about 5 years during aging before it subsided.

The other thing is I have read and seen videos where they mention something that is sprayed on the leaves when they are fermenting to maintain some moisture.  It’s a secret mix that fermenters use.  I can’t recall the name, but I thought that “treatment” was different for Maduros and may add to the sweetness.  I am surprised this hasn’t been mentioned here and I am wondering if it is totally bogus?