PigFish Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Cigar Quality I find it amazing the responses that arise out of the question of Cuban cigar quality. And since I just received this box of cigars in the post, I thought I might bring up the question once more. What does it mean, quality control? There are many facets to the question that simply scream opinion and prejudice. This particular examination, albeit brief is not intended to be subjective. I thought some of writing more of my opinions on the matter. What is the point, I thought to myself? You decide. Do you find this acceptable quality control? This is a grain scale. 1 grain = 1/7000 of an pound. This is a precision scale! This represents the measurements of weight of the top layer of cigars. Why not all of them? What is the point, I own the cigars now…? Considering the spread from the heaviest to the lightest in 13 cigars, I did not want to look further!!! -the Pig Here are the results: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXCIGAR Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Heaviest: 148.7, lightest 107.0...wow. 28% variation there. Seems to be a several about 20-25% lighter than the mean. As far as quality control (or lack thereof), weighing bundles before boxing, or earlier, doesn't seem like the worst thing to do. If they're going to take the time to draw-check sticks then weighing them seems to be a logical idea as well, and one that wouldn't require too much additional effort. It would certainly help to at least recognize the problem and possibly pinpoint it to specific rollers. I've been noticing weight variations quite a bit in the last few years as well. Most of the time it's not an issue, but lighter cigars are certainly correlated to draw looseness and construction/burn/heat/smoke volume issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RijkdeGooier Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Very nice experiment Ray? Given your meticilous attention to detail, I'm sure they are all at the same Rh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv2fly Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 My thoughts as well. Is the moisture content the same in all samples? Not that I have any clue about this myself......just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 That's a good call on the rH, water content is important and I did of course think of it. The point being that I did not want to wait a year to talk about this box of cigars. If I make some assumptions, notably that these cigars have been next to each other since boxed, 2014 and stored together, they are probably equal in PMC. This is verified by me by a simple squeeze on the cigars. It is pretty obvious which ones are the light ones! Thanks for reading! -Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliverdst Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 16 minutes ago, PigFish said: That's a good call on the rH, water content is important and I did of course think of it. The point being that I did not want to wait a year to talk about this box of cigars. If I make some assumptions, notably that these cigars have been next to each other since boxed, 2014 and stored together, they are probably equal in PMC. This is verified by me by a simple squeeze on the cigars. It is pretty obvious which ones are the light ones! Thanks for reading! -Piggy do you have the statistics data? Gauss would be cool for the whole box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomF Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 If they were machine-made they would all be exactly the same size and weight. Would that be preferable? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 22 minutes ago, TomF said: If they were machine-made they would all be exactly the same size and weight. Would that be preferable? Of course not. There's a reason premium cigars are hand rolled… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLB03TT Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Obviously, some percent of weight variance is to be expected under even the most stringent Q.C. standard with a hand rolled product. So the question would be what percent of variance would be deemed reasonable under these circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion21 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I'm not surprised. My questions are: Are the ones in the 140's plugged? Are the cigars in the 107-111 range are probably wind tunnels? I find this interesting because you could develop a range of "ideal" weights for every cigars in the Habanos lineup if experiments were performed on them all to analyze the ideal weight to smoking ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 The answer to perfection and ideal weight is probably subject to whom you ask! Those who like lighter draws will likely answer the question at the lower end of the curve. Me, I prefer stiffer drawing cigars and think that the cigars from 130 to 145 would likely be my choice. I won't know until I start smoking them, and that could be 1 to 5 years from now. All the cigars are 'soft' from my perspective. That is not an indictment, they are likely too wet, and that is my experience talking. It would not surprise me if all the cigars lost 5% of their weigh in my humidor (further speculation) based on how dry I prefer cigars. All the cigars will certainly firm up in my storage. As I fooled with several of the cigar, none from my estimation will be plugged, but that is only a guess. To the contrary, I think I will have a larger problem with light draws and potential wind tunnels (but again I am speculating). The comment about machine made cigars made me take notice. I actually have no problem with MM cigars! If one likes consistent cigars, I do believe that they are more consistent from within a box (typically). Consistency in cigars, consistency in taste, not the smoking experience, is not why I smoke cigars. I smoke for a quality smoking experience, not a similar or 'the same' taste (per say). The inconsistency, as in variance of taste, is one of the reasons that I don't need a lot of marca variety. There is sufficient variety in each box to satisfy my varied taste desire. Ultimately the "fullness, of the packing" of these cigars will likely play a role in there variation and my interest. Unfortunately, I have had poor experience with lightly packed cigars as often tasteless or 'off' tasting, or not containing the correct balance of tobacco to promote a great smoking experience. This is where I am in doubt... I will however smoke each cigar with open mind. I do however prefer a little fight when I a sucking the life out of my smoking partner! And I won't know about that until I start to kill them off. Cheers! -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabes Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 50 minutes ago, Orion21 said: I'm not surprised. My questions are: Are the ones in the 140's plugged? Are the cigars in the 107-111 range are probably wind tunnels? I find this interesting because you could develop a range of "ideal" weights for every cigars in the Habanos lineup if experiments were performed on them all to analyze the ideal weight to smoking ratio. I once tracked measurements over about 50 cigars including weight, rg, length and time to smoke. While not exactly the same as your question, I found that I smoke at more or less the same rate regardless of the other variables. Of all those measurements I saw the highest correlation between weight and smoking duration. A 12.5g cigar lasted 100min be it a campanas, corona gorda or piramides. Three different vitolas with three different volumes in terms of size, all the same weight and time to smoke. Which of those three cigars was at the ideal weight for its vitola? Not rocket science and not earth shattering at all, but I found it interesting and gave me numbers to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Cuban cigar quality control is akin to government intelligence.... Yes, I know this is a bit off topic but the discussion gives me pause to consider any number of previous discussions and an overall picture. How many times here have the non subjective (taste preference) variances in any number of cigars been shown, via reviews, blind tastings, etc. How many times have we read "maybe you just got a bad one / maybe they need more time", etc. It brings to mind, again, an interview from the early 2000s with a Habanos head honcho regarding how they wanted / considered Cuban cigars to be a luxury item and that QC problems were behind them. Not really. It's been brought up a number of times as to the wages etc of the factory workers, and how they have little incentive to care about quality. The festivals and parties seem to be relatively extravagant, yet it seems by the continually noted inconsistencies that the actual production infrastructure is lacking. I agree with Ray in that I ideally seek a quality experience each time I ignite - I shouldn't have to cross my fingers and hope I got a good one. I know it can be done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaldes Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 FYI there is 7000 grains in one pound. This caught my eye since I like to reload shotgun shells and there are about 500 grains in 1.125 ounces of shot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Colt45 said: Cuban cigar quality control is akin to government intelligence.... Yes, I know this is a bit off topic but the discussion gives me pause to consider any number of previous discussions and an overall picture. How many times here have the non subjective (taste preference) variances in any number of cigars been shown, via reviews, blind tastings, etc. How many times have we read "maybe you just got a bad one / maybe they need more time", etc. It brings to mind, again, an interview from the early 2000s with a Habanos head honcho regarding how they wanted / considered Cuban cigars to be a luxury item and that QC problems were behind them. Not really. It's been brought up a number of times as to the wages etc of the factory workers, and how they have little incentive to care about quality. The festivals and parties seem to be relatively extravagant, yet it seems by the continually noted inconsistencies that the actual production infrastructure is lacking. I agree with Ray in that I ideally seek a quality experience each time I ignite - I shouldn't have to cross my fingers and hope I got a good one. I know it can be done. You know, I think it is funny sometimes the replies to as to "why?" Then the arguments ensue, I think largely from those on either side of the existence and philosophy of the Cuban government. No, this is not my direction for this topic, if you are wondering!!! Yet Cuban cigar quality suffers from problems and the problems exist because of the 'state' of the Cuban cigar industry! That, my friends, cannot be denied. I am not running the Cuban cigar industry and neither are any of you (that I know of) so neither you nor I can be blamed. Yet, there are faults and the faults have cause. I simply blame who runs the company. They don't care! If they cared, the problems would be solved, it is that simple. So Ross, to reply to you, yes it can be done! The best cigars in the world emanate from Isla Cuba. The NCC makers (bless their little souls) have managed to overcome production problems at the consumer level, if you disregard the smoking experience (taste, for those of us who don't smoke NC due to their taste). Handmade products does not mean crappy quality is acceptable! My experience tells me that this variation of weights represents crappy quality control. However, I must admit, the appearance of the cigars is very good. Again, I am willing to stand mute on the topic of the smoking experience and not overly prognosticate. I cannot tell which cigars are good or bad by weighing them, no will I pretend that I can! BUT, my anecdotal experience has shown me that lighter (weight) cigars are often undefiled and represent (typically) a less than stellar smoking experience. We shall see, as they say! On the face of it, this situation is not acceptable to me. Ultimately, the smoking experience will be the final arbiter. Me, I would prefer my cigars sorted by weight than by color. The variation in color of the wrapper means precious little to me. An undefiled, or overfilled cigar makes a huge difference, especially when one is contrasted to the other! What is the acceptable standard deviation is the question? This box was packaged and sold. The evidence then is on favor of the fact that this deviation is acceptable. I proofer that this level is poor quality control. -the Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, avaldes said: FYI there is 7000 grains in one pound. This caught my eye since I like to reload shotgun shells and there are about 500 grains in 1.125 ounces of shot ... correct-a-mundo! I thought to myself, well that is what I posted, what is the problem??? Why I typed ounce, is beyond me! Thanks for bringing that detail up. I had better fire the house proofreader!!! -LOL Yes, I have had this scale for many years, it is an electromagnet force compensation scale for reloading small arms. 1/7000 of a POUND is correct! Good catch! -Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElPuro Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I think the inconsistency is part of the business model. This is the reason that boxes are stamped...it makes certain ones more collectible, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The weight differences are just because one cigar has more tobacco beetle eggs than the other... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeruby Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I really do not see cigar weight as a quality issue, I have also weighed my cigars when the have arrived and have seen similar results to PigFish's. it has never bothered me, I just accept that its a hand made product and there will always be variation. We have all seen cigar rollers and how they make a cigar. They grab a bunch of filler leaves one at a time, bunch them together in their hand, and then roll the wrapper leaf around the filler getting the right ring gauge at the same time, apply the cap, and finish off by cutting to the right length. They must go by what they feel in the hand and with what they see in front of them.. Say they use 5 filler leaves for each cigar as an example. Cigar filler leaf may vary in thickness, texture, imperfections, moisture level, stems, etc and all these variables add or subtract in weight therefore giving a different weight result per cigar. This is totally acceptable for a hand made product in my opinion, It must be a feat in itself getting them to match and looking so much alike beautifully displayed in a dress box, let alone trying to get the weight of each exactly right as well.. Each cigar has its own individuality and its own character, in smell, taste, appearance, construction, and of course weight. All part and parcel of producing a totally hand made product. If you get a wind tunnel, or tough draw, or plugged one or 'Perfection', It all ads to the total experience. You cannot appreciate pleasure fully, unless you have also experienced disappointment, only just for comparison, if nothing else.. I guess the only way to guarantee a closer uniform weight and still call it hand made, would be to weigh the filler and wrapper leaves before rolling, and use exactly the same size and number of filler leaves. This would be near impossible, time consuming and a total frustration for the roller in terms of getting it right and still produce cigars in any sort of volume day after day, not to mention the production cost involved. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zigatoh Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 18 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said: Heaviest: 148.7, lightest 107.0...wow. 28% variation there. Or 39% depending which way you compare the two values! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, Morgan said: I really don't believe weight should be part of quality control due to all the natural elements involved but if you did include when was the last time you calibrated your scale. As that is essential in making sure you're getting the true weight especially into grains? ... okay, I am now confused! You say that weight should not be considered in quality control, then... you asked me if I calibrated my scale??? Yes, I understand that they are different things, but if weight does not matter, then neither does calibration!!! To answer your question, I always calibrate prior to weighing anything. And since this is an electromagnetic scale, not a cheap torsion scale, I allow it to warm up 24 hour prior to using it. The manufacturer actually says to leave it on all the time, but I don't as I only use it when I am reloading and not always then, I have 3 scales. ... and one more point. Calibration (taring to a calibrated measure) is a measure of accuracy, not one of precision. The precision of the scale would remain the same if went from grains to a unitless reference. Since I use two calibration weights to determine precision, one half the weight of the other, at this weight range even a gross error would be negligible compared to the actual deviation in weights. Blaming the scale is therefore rather silly. By the way, I also take note to move away and not breathe on the scale... that too will change the readings! Now back to the point. Do any of you even feel your cigars and see how firm they are? Do any of you make judgements about the firmness of your cigars? Then, have any of you correlated smoking experience with the firmness of a cigar??? Now I asked for input and I got it... I have to say it is no wonder that Tabacuba cares less about quality. From what I have read, at least some of you, EXPECT TO GET CRAP AND RATIONALIZE IT!!! The way I read a post above, one poster suggests that smoking some crap balances his 'experience.' (No offense mate). So onto the next question then. A drink at a bar is a handmade product. If you go to a bar and ask for a shot of booze and the shot glass is only 2/3 full, would you go back to drink there? I don't drink so someone tell me what is the expected amount for a "pour" of wine? You go out to a restaurant and you are paying $15 for a glass of wine. If you only get 2/3 of what you pay for, does it bother you? Hell, it bothers my wife!!!! And what the hell, she is not that picky, she is MY wife after all.... -LOL With this kind of error, it would appear to be acceptable if the barkeep walked 2/3 the way down the bar and picked just any bottle of wine! Changing your oil is a 'handmade' operation. If the mechanic neglected to add 20 to 30% of your oil would you object? If one of your new handmade Italian shoes was 30% larger than the other is that acceptable? If one of every 4 studs was left out of your walls.... ??? Handmade is supposed to mean good people... It is certainly not a reason for failure! If your handmade golf clubs had this variation, would you say, "it adds to the experience of using them and since I payed a lot to have them handmade it is okay...?" (Righteous indignation rant over). If you cannot accept that a pair of shoes cannot have a variance like this, and Tabacuba claims that they sell a luxury product, some of these boxes costing hundreds of dollars, you really feel that this is okay....? I guess the answer is yes! I have heard enough... Thanks all for the replies! -Piggy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaldes Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 To add a little flame to this fire..don't forget that cigar "recipes" are posted in the factory in grams...as in so many grams of seco, so many grams of volado and so many grams of ligero... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCgarman Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 41 minutes ago, PigFish said: ... okay, I am now confused! You say that weight should not be considered in quality control, then... you asked me if I calibrated my scale??? Yes, I understand that they are different things, but if weight does not matter, then neither does calibration!!! To answer your question, I always calibrate prior to weighing anything. And since this is an electromagnetic scale, not a cheap torsion scale, I allow it to warm up 24 hour prior to using it. The manufacturer actually says to leave it on all the time, but I don't as I only use it when I am reloading and not always then, I have 3 scales. ... and one more point. Calibration (taring to a calibrated measure) is a measure of accuracy, not one of precision. The precision of the scale would remain the same if went from grains to a unitless reference. Since I use two calibration weights to determine precision, one half the weight of the other, at this weight range even a gross error would be negligible compared to the actual deviation in weights. Blaming the scale is therefore rather silly. By the way, I also take note to move away and not breathe on the scale... that too will change the readings! Now back to the point. Do any of you even feel your cigars and see how firm they are? Do any of you make judgements about the firmness of your cigars? Then, have any of you correlated smoking experience with the firmness of a cigar??? Now I asked for input and I got it... I have to say it is no wonder that Tabacuba cares less about quality. From what I have read, at least some of you, EXPECT TO GET CRAP AND RATIONALIZE IT!!! The way I read a post above, one poster suggests that smoking some crap balances his 'experience.' (No offense mate). So onto the next question then. A drink at a bar is a handmade product. If you go to a bar and ask for a shot of booze and the shot glass is only 2/3 full, would you go back to drink there? I don't drink so someone tell me what is the expected amount for a "pour" of wine? You go out to a restaurant and you are paying $15 for a glass of wine. If you only get 2/3 of what you pay for, does it bother you? Hell, it bothers my wife!!!! And what the hell, she is not that picky, she is MY wife after all.... -LOL With this kind of error, it would appear to be acceptable if the barkeep walked 2/3 the way down the bar and picked just any bottle of wine! Changing your oil is a 'handmade' operation. If the mechanic neglected to add 20 to 30% of your oil would you object? If one of your new handmade Italian shoes was 30% larger than the other is that acceptable? If one of every 4 studs was left out of your walls.... ??? Handmade is supposed to mean good people... It is certainly not a reason for failure! If your handmade golf clubs had this variation, would you say, "it adds to the experience of using them and since I payed a lot to have them handmade it is okay...?" (Righteous indignation rant over). If you cannot accept that a pair of shoes cannot have a variance like this, and Tabacuba claims that they sell a luxury product, some of these boxes costing hundreds of dollars, you really feel that this is okay....? I guess the answer is yes! I have heard enough... Thanks all for the replies! -Piggy Cuba is as Cuba does. Since there is no customer service department to email or call to complain about a crap product, what do you do? Smoke Padrons instead? LOL. BTW, Starbucks IS being sued for not filling their cups with the advertised volume of coffee beverage. But then again, Starbucks is not owned by the Castro brothers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXCIGAR Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Morgan said: I really don't believe weight should be part of quality control due to all the natural elements involved but if you did include when was the last time you calibrated your scale. As that is essential in making sure you're getting the true weight especially into grains? ROTT, the variables resulting in measurement variations are quite limited. In fact, it's probably the point at which you'll get the most reliable measurements. Either one performs QC or they don't. The factories check the draws and managers measure the lengths of random cigars right at the rollers' tables, and since there are specific weight guidelines for leaf use in the blend recipes, weight checking seems to me like a very basic, practical and worthwhile process requiring little additional time that would contribute greatly to improving construction consistency. I don't think overfilling is much of an issue since the draws are checked, but the problems underfilling causes aren't detected until they're smoked. I personally hate the feeling I get when I pick up a stick to smoke that's obviously lighter than the rest. Almost invariably, the draw is loose, the burn is uneven, rapid and hot, I'm puffing away to keep it lit...ugh. I see no reason not to establish an acceptable weight range for each vitola and perform a simple check at a point when the cigars can still be traced back to their roller. The draw checkers pull the cigars right out of the molds to check them and it would be easy to keep track of which roller used which molds. There should be a scale right next to the draw checker, and the molds themselves could be placed on the scale with almost no additional time wasted. Cigars not within range could be inspected and addressed immediately by a floor manager. Of course, if you have a roller rolling 5 cigars at 8g and 5 cigars at 6g, the mold will average 7g. But I suspect it's much more likely an individual roller is either rolling most too heavy or most too light. Keep in mind, the 25 cigars in Ray's box were probably rolled by no less than 5 different rollers, and possibly up to 25 different rollers--especially for a high-volume cigar like RyJ PC or MF. Consistency is something I value, at least consistency in performance and construction. Color sorting has nothing to do with QC--it's simply aesthetic uniformity. I agree, wrapper color means very little at the end of the day--I'd trade it away all day for construction consistency. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion21 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I enjoy all of my cigars for what they are. I have been less irked by Habanos than I have the NC companies in the past. You see the NC companies claim they roll a superior product than Cuba, but have a history of trying to copy it. The most acrid and unsmokeable cigar I have ever lit was a $20+ Padron (pure metallic nastiness). The most wide open wind tunnel I have ever smoked is a tie between Davidoff and Padron. The least smokeable spice bomb award goes to La Flor Dominicana. You get my drift? I will take Cuba's questionable QC over the NC's "superior" version any day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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