VW Scandal

[wabashcr]

One factor that plays into this is that GM and Ford, even though their deliberate acts killed people, are American companies. The public at this point in time generally doesn't support politicians coming down hard on US companies no matter the transgression. VW is likely to face stiffer penalties solely because it is a foreign based company, even though I'm reasonably sure there are more American parts and assembly labor in my Jetta than in my parents Expedition (that was true of my last car, a Subaru outback).

I'm actually surprised we have higher emissions standards than Europe, I assumed because population density is higher they would have had stricter controls.

You can add Toyota to that list, too. Their throttle issues killed people. But Toyota has a handful of plants scattered around the US, whereas VW just has their one plant in Chattanooga. So even though Toyota is a much bigger threat to the American big 3, they have a lot more political clout in the US than VW, and were able to avoid the death penalty. I'm positive if this had been Toyota (or one of the big 3) fudging with emission data, they'd be looking at a much more manageable situation (in the US) than VW currently is. They all provide too many jobs, and have too many politicians in their pockets to get the hammer.

[Orion21]

It is in no ones best interests to put VW out of business. What I find amusing is that politicians are acting in such shock horror to the VW cheat. How dare VW try to run their business for a profit at the expense of government regulation designed to save the world! How dare they!

I think the more important conversation we should be having is this:

Are current emission regulations fair? Are they requiring car companies to endanger the viability of the business to keep up with new regulations? Are they even effective?

I get that pollution is bad and no one wants a smog cloud over their city, but lets be realistic...

When was the last time a government organization in charge of regulating something said "You know what? I think we're good! I think the current regulations are a good balance between the public good and business. No more need for us!"

Seriously, these regulations are created by people who don't answer to anyone but themselves. And to remain employed and relevant they must continue to expand and create new types or forms of regulations. It's a never ending expansion of taxes, fees, costs (VW issue) and sanctions for non-compliance. Could it be possible, just possible, the regulations VW was forced to abide by finally just got to a point where the cost benefit went out the window? Could it be possible that government, in all it's human based wisdom, just ignored the reality of the regulations they created? My answer to all of that is yes.

The environmental government organizations want diesel cars gone. So what is the easiest way to make that happen using government? Create an environment where it's financially impossible to make money building a diesel car. The EPA is currently in the process of doing this exact same thing to coal based power plants in the USA. They are regulating these out of existence. So what did VW do? They ignored the regulations and created a work around to protect their shareholders, since they are a publicly owned company. What we should be mad about is that government regulations basically pushed an enormous company so far into a corner that they had to cheat to get out. My position may not be PC, but it's the truth . . .

[TheMonk]

They really dropped the ball on this one... What a shame, for an otherwise very solid company (IMO).

[Fosgate]

[LLC]

If VW with all its resources can't make a diesel that both runs clean and is efficient, I wonder if anyone else can? BMW, Mercedes, etc. Have they played the same game?

Also, does it apply to Audi as well. I assume so given they use the same engines?

Audi's using the same engine are affected. BMW was very clear in saying it does not manipulate any test results.:

“The BMW Group does not manipulate or rig any emissions tests,” the Munich-based company said in a statement in response to the report. “We observe the legal requirements in each country.”

In a detailed report, BMW claimed that there was no difference in the urea exhaust gas treatment when either on the road or on the test bench. Obviously, BMW was upset, but now the actual results have come out and the X3, as well as all other diesel BMW models, pass the emissions tests and exceed expectations. Hopefully, BMW’s stock price changes soon to reflect the truths that have recently come to light.

[wabashcr]

If VW with all its resources can't make a diesel that both runs clean and is efficient, I wonder if anyone else can? BMW, Mercedes, etc. Have they played the same game?

Also, does it apply to Audi as well. I assume so given they use the same engines?

They can make it clean and fuel efficient with the urea/Adblue additive, but it's really expensive. VW claimed they could produce clean emissions without the urea, which gave them a significant pricing advantage. Everyone else is using the urea, which requires a separate tank, pump, heater, etc., and requires maintenance/refill.

[PigFish]

That is what really gets me the most. A car company makes a calculated risk v. cost decision that results in the death of human beings and they will end up getting off lighter than a car company manipulating emissions readings. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone the emissions monkey business (and I am sure VW isn't the only one), but to come down harder on emissions manipulation v. predictable death due to manufacturing decisions is sheer lunacy.

One thing that is overlooked here, is that the EPA has actually forced these issues. Case in point. Cars today are lighter.

One can say all they want about engineered safety and airbags, but the fact remains that more metal that you wrap yourself in, ultimately the safer you will be with the same passive and active safety devices. Making cars lighter is causing more deaths on the highway... Death to humans is simply a casualty of war as the EPA wages this war on the industrial aspects of American society and business. As far as the EPA is concerned, they don't care of you are safe, have a job, can get to your job, have control over your private property, nor any other aspect of your life, as long as they have the final word about any gas that is emitted out of any orifice over the continent.

As we redefine every aspect of our lives and language in this new progressive 'tyranny' that we live under, it is not at all surprising to me that one 'purpose programs' an aspect of an automobile. Every part of the emmisons on an automobile is purpose programmed. These cars idle on one program, accelerate and decelerate on another, all based on airflow, density etc... Shifting this cars down, will kill the fuel to the engine so that it does not idle and consume fuel when it needs not. My Jetta does not even have a torque converter, but an asynchronous two clutch automatically shifting 'manual' transmission. It kills fuel to the engine anytime it can to save it. AND IT WORKS!

When prominent politicians state, "it depends on what the definition of is, is," and that is acceptable, I see no conflict in building cars that have purpose driven programs to adjust to testing. Relativism seems to be the norm unless you are a European car builder.

Someone in the Tesla lobby is likely leading the charge to get these fines imposed. There is likely already a deal in place to move the money from VW to some electric car maker...! I'm sorry, some coal powered car maker...!

Mark my words. Some of this money, 'will be transferred for the greater good' to a politically correct car company, to reduce smog. This is the way Washington works. This is just a tax on VW for pursuing an efficient automobile that is not politically correct.

I filled my Jetta yesterday... 14.5 gallons of fuel. 47mpg... close to 700 miles, still not empty! I filled my F150 yesterday too. 26 gallons of fuel, expect to get about 350 miles out of that, that cost me over 70 bucks.

-Piggy

[helix]

Though lighter a hell of a lot stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

[topdiesel]

It is never reassuring when a company lies to it's customers. I am not really concerned about the environmental impact, since these cars are still burning way cleaner than cars did when I was younger. It is tough to trust a company that freely lies and cheats the system. Let present and future customers decide the outcome. The government shouldn't be involved with fines (the people who were cheated won't see any of that), they should be imposing jail time if laws were broken. Issuing fines only impacts the shareholders and auto owners who were likely being cheated and lied to as well.

[capitalpg]

This will end in criminal charges as civil is not nearly enough with the current backlash, and justifiably so. Audi engines in the mix as well...

[rckymtn22]

Still waiting on criminal charges and jail time for bankers/ brokers for the financial crash. Which had way more of an impact than VW ever will.

[Orion21]

It is never reassuring when a company lies to it's customers. I am not really concerned about the environmental impact, since these cars are still burning way cleaner than cars did when I was younger. It is tough to trust a company that freely lies and cheats the system. Let present and future customers decide the outcome. The government shouldn't be involved with fines (the people who were cheated won't see any of that), they should be imposing jail time if laws were broken. Issuing fines only impacts the shareholders and auto owners who were likely being cheated and lied to as well.

What if they system were rigged to begin with? What if the system started out one way and was manipulated to your detriment over and over and over again? This whole dance is far too complicated to summarize in a posting, but power equals control. If the government slowly continues to expand it's power from what light bulbs we can buy to the types of cars we can drive they eliminate dissent and consolidate power. VW manipulating their software to build a car they could actually sell was a middle finger up to these controls. Now that they have been caught they will be punished. An example will be made out of them, which I could see going as far as the German government eventually owning the car maker after a long draw out legal battle.

My feelings on these types of issues are well represented in my last post, but if you are weighing in on thise subject please ask yourself the hard questions like:

Why would VW feel they needed to cheat?

Why do governments continue to expand mpg and emissions regulations if cars are 100 times cleaner than they were 25 years ago?

Why do we just sit back and not feel the need to ask questions relating to government regulation and who makes these decisions ...and why?

More than likely it will become public that many car companies have manipulated data or systems to get around regulations. I read Hyundai was fined $300,000,000 for manipulating mpg ratings to meet government mandates so they could continue selling cars in the US. The larger issue I am concerned about is if the level of regulation has reached a point where it's abusive and not economically feasible to support.

What it comes down to is almost 600,000 people worldwide work for VW. How many of them should be forced to lose their jobs so that a car will produce a fraction less in CO2 or get another .5 mpg?

[wabashcr]

What if they system were rigged to begin with? What if the system started out one way and was manipulated to your detriment over and over and over again? This whole dance is far too complicated to summarize in a posting, but power equals control. If the government slowly continues to expand it's power from what light bulbs we can buy to the types of cars we can drive they eliminate dissent and consolidate power. VW manipulating their software to build a car they could actually sell was a middle finger up to these controls. Now that they have been caught they will be punished. An example will be made out of them, which I could see going as far as the German government eventually owning the car maker after a long draw out legal battle.

My feelings on these types of issues are well represented in my last post, but if you are weighing in on thise subject please ask yourself the hard questions like:

Why would VW feel they needed to cheat?

Why do governments continue to expand mpg and emissions regulations if cars are 100 times cleaner than they were 25 years ago?

Why do we just sit back and not feel the need to ask questions relating to government regulation and who makes these decisions ...and why?

More than likely it will become public that many car companies have manipulated data or systems to get around regulations. I read Hyundai was fined $300,000,000 for manipulating mpg ratings to meet government mandates so they could continue selling cars in the US. The larger issue I am concerned about is if the level of regulation has reached a point where it's abusive and not economically feasible to support.

What it comes down to is almost 600,000 people worldwide work for VW. How many of them should be forced to lose their jobs so that a car will produce a fraction less in CO2 or get another .5 mpg?

I'm sure the current regulations are more than a little politically driven, and I'm sure there are many nefarious interests driving public policy. In many cases regulations may be nonsensical or counterproductive. But VW knew the rules, purposely broke them, and tried to cover their tracks. That's not fair to their competitors who seem to be playing by the rules. VW isn't some little guy out there sticking it to the man. They're a $50B company that got caught cheating the rules to sell more cars. They should have considered their relative lack of political capital before they tried to pull off something like this.

[tsolomon]

We have a 2009 Jetta TDI and we love the car, but we are not happy with the situation. I'm sure the fix will ruin the performance along with the mileage. I'm a long time VW owner and this just pisses me off.

[Deodato]

The big government angle cracks me up. In my eyes this is just another corrupt executive team that took a calculated risk to bolster their position in the market and their already healthy operating margins - along with their bonuses.

Glad they got caught and I hope they get smashed for it. Who knows - maybe the Greeks have a new path to pay down some of their sovereign debt

The future of the the auto industry is there for any of these guys to seize. Hopefully some of them step up with some vision and leadership and give Tesla et al. a run for their money.

[PigFish]

What if they system were rigged to begin with? What if the system started out one way and was manipulated to your detriment over and over and over again? This whole dance is far too complicated to summarize in a posting, but power equals control. If the government slowly continues to expand it's power from what light bulbs we can buy to the types of cars we can drive they eliminate dissent and consolidate power. VW manipulating their software to build a car they could actually sell was a middle finger up to these controls. Now that they have been caught they will be punished. An example will be made out of them, which I could see going as far as the German government eventually owning the car maker after a long draw out legal battle.

My feelings on these types of issues are well represented in my last post, but if you are weighing in on thise subject please ask yourself the hard questions like:

Why would VW feel they needed to cheat?

Why do governments continue to expand mpg and emissions regulations if cars are 100 times cleaner than they were 25 years ago?

Why do we just sit back and not feel the need to ask questions relating to government regulation and who makes these decisions ...and why?

More than likely it will become public that many car companies have manipulated data or systems to get around regulations. I read Hyundai was fined $300,000,000 for manipulating mpg ratings to meet government mandates so they could continue selling cars in the US. The larger issue I am concerned about is if the level of regulation has reached a point where it's abusive and not economically feasible to support.

What it comes down to is almost 600,000 people worldwide work for VW. How many of them should be forced to lose their jobs so that a car will produce a fraction less in CO2 or get another .5 mpg?

Good post mate!

[...]

Good post mate!

No headbunting intended but it seems to me like some of you guys are confusing a few key concepts, like morality and personal interests...

[Smallclub]

The big government angle cracks me up.

Me too. Looks like some people want to live in a world ruled by Monsanto, Nestlé, Google, JP Morgan, etc etc.

[PigFish]

Still waiting on criminal charges and jail time for bankers/ brokers for the financial crash. Which had way more of an impact than VW ever will.

This is the same problem mate.

I had been in mortgage banking for over 2 decades. While I still dabble in the real estate business, and I am not blessing it, it is full of scumbags, they are not the cause of this, and these types of problems.

Why would Fanny and Freddy offer yield spread premiums "points" (sometimes 4 or more) to mortgage bankers and brokers if the intent was not to churn loans? You have to ask yourself, who pays for that? I know the answer, It comes from the top... It comes from policy... It comes from government intervention forcing the hand of those who were conservative, but perhaps not lending to the 'right people in the right neighborhoods.' It is wholesale corruption starting from government policy, through the GSE's and then exploited by the people at the local level. Sure there was cheating and fraud. Knowing some auditors for B of A, those that took over Countrywide's portfolio, it is pretty apparent. But when I was given the opportunity to directly underwrite via a FNMA direct underwriting engine (automated underwriting directly from the GSE's) and these models would give a loan to anyone even if they could not fog a mirror, it became pretty straight forward that the mortgage banker was just doing their job with the tools given, and the eventual scapegoat.

Mate I don't think I am a scumbag... But when an underwriting algorithm tells you to lend money to a person that you don't really believe is capable of paying off a loan what do you do? Do you lend him the money, or toss him out on his ear and get sued by him. When they offer you a substantial financial incentive to find the same type of borrower and lend them money too, tell me mate, what would you do??? Let me ask you this. If lending is blind, why is there a requirement to indicate your race on a mortgage application? Why is race important to whether you can pay a loan back...?

Here is little info for you. The GSE's were tweaking the algorithm to meet the political goals of policy, and the political desires of those that run the GSE's to get a specific outcome, JUST LIKE VOLKSWAGEN WAS DOING.... You are right mate... Where is the justice? It was not my fault that the computer told me to lend the money to a guy that would default...

In fact GSE's simply became another arm by which wealth was transferred to political 'classes' of people while the guys at the top of the GSE's made a fortune. I think Franklin Raines made off with some 60 million... as I recall.

Then when it came time to fail, we did not let them fail as we did with the S and L's. With all the intrenched cronyism and ties to big government (GSE's), the taxpayer bailed them out. We were told, "they were too big to fail." Creative destruction was not allowed to play out and we simply rolled the bubble off to the future once more. Now it will also infect the bond market, as we needed to borrow the money to pay for this crap and never offset it with all the rest of the crap that government sponsors! On top off all that, we use baseline budgeting... That means that every dime the government spends is rolled into next year's baseline budget. A bailout then, never goes away...

Furthermore, we are doing it again... And it will continue until "moral hazard" is understood by the layman, and government is forced to stop 'backing' players for a desired societal outcome, while all the time paying the players to play along... My 2cts.

Cheers! -Piggy

[PigFish]

No headbunting intended but it seems to me like some of you guys are confusing a few key concepts, like morality and personal interests...

I don't see your confusion as head butting. I believe that some of us can see that there are core reasons why these types of events happen. That some are allowed to skate and others are prosecuted. It is not an accident who gets to skate and who does not. That is all that I am digging into... If VW is not politically correct and connected they will not be allowed to skate!

If I boil it down, there are those that think that VW is 'frankly dishonest.' That is the beginning and the end of it for them. I can see that, I have no desire to defend them... Or, they can simply be caught up in the maze of the political game playing that exists in all industries that are tightly regulated by governments. I can see that angle too, and it makes for good discussion even if some don't believe it or want to play along.

I am not siding with VW... I am understanding that simply calling them dishonest, might not be the 'whole truth.' It does appear to be part of the truth, I won't deny that, but is it the whole truth? That I don't know and will continue to explore with conversation until the subject bores me...!

-R

[Lotusguy]

Me too. Looks like some people want to live in a world ruled by Monsanto, Nestlé, Google, JP Morgan, etc etc.

We already are.

[...]

I don't see your confusion as head butting. I believe that some of us can see that there are core reasons why these types of events happen. That some are allowed to skate and others are prosecuted. It is not an accident who gets to skate and who does not. That is all that I am digging into... If VW is not politically correct and connected they will not be allowed to skate!

If I boil it down, there are those that think that VW is 'frankly dishonest.' That is the beginning and the end of it for them. I can see that, I have no desire to defend them... Or, they can simply be caught up in the maze of the political game playing that exists in all industries that are tightly regulated by governments. I can see that angle too, and it makes for good discussion even if some don't believe it or want to play along.

I am not siding with VW... I am understanding that simply calling them dishonest, might not be the 'whole truth.' It does appear to be part of the truth, I won't deny that, but is it the whole truth? That I don't know and will continue to explore with conversation until the subject bores me...!

-R

It has been quite obvious in modern history that people tend to do whatever they think they'll get away with. I am not one to assume individuals or groups act with intent to hurt others but it is clear to me less regulations and more market freedom can't be the solution to the issues we face. As long as some of us are not willing to act for the best interest of humanity (broad scope and idealist concept, I'm aware of the innumerable caveats here) we seem to be stuck with having to go the regulatory way to try and curb unreasonable financial ambitions and practices. I appreciate you having broken down your opinions a bit Ray. Cheers!

[PigFish]

It has been quite obvious in modern history that people tend to do whatever they think they'll get away with. I am not one to assume individuals or groups act with intent to hurt others but it is clear to me less regulations and more market freedom can't be the solution to the issues we face. As long as some of us are not willing to act for the best interest of humanity (broad scope and idealist concept, I'm aware of the innumerable caveats here) we seem to be stuck with having to go the regulatory way to try and curb unreasonable financial ambitions and practices. I appreciate you having broken down your opinions a bit Ray. Cheers!

This actually explains our (the two of us) core differences. I don't hold it against you, as you don't apparently hold it against me!

Who runs government other than more men, like those that are our 'dishonest neighbors?' My suggestion is that when one has a core distrust for industrial or corporate entities, they too should carry that forward to the largest of those entities amongst us. Frankly, when you look at what government is involved in, they are neither small, pure, productive nor beneficent... They are the worst of the worse corporations! Add to that, that they can kick in your door and put you in prison, or on the gallows, I see them as the one true entity to fear.

I am not excusing corporations for anything or any reason. I am stating that I understand them and their role if a free society. I am stating that distrust of them as they are run by people who can be fallible, dishonest and crooked. But I am also stating that distrust should be passed along to those who wish to advance themselves via means other than through capitalism, but through corruption.

Corruption does not start with those offering the bribe. It needs a public official or policy maker to take it... Today it appears to me, that corruption now stems not passively, but actively from governments. We call it corporate welfare. The government now 'bribes' the corporatist... He pays him off with taxpayer money through programs and incentives, to get his backing during the election season.

Life is hard enough when corporatists are offering individuals in government incentives to sway policy. But when government is offering incentives to corporations to change society, to consolidate power and to gain further control over the governed, free society is all but lost.

Have a nice weekend mate! -Ray

[...]

This actually explains our (the two of us) core differences. I don't hold it against you, as you don't apparently hold it against me!

Who runs government other than more men, like those that are our 'dishonest neighbors?' My suggestion is that when one has a core distrust for industrial or corporate entities, they too should carry that forward to the largest of those entities amongst us. Frankly, when you look at what government is involved in, they are neither small, pure, productive nor beneficent... They are the worst of the worse corporations! Add to that, that they can kick in your door and put you in prison, or on the gallows, I see them as the one true entity to fear.

I am not excusing corporations for anything or any reason. I am stating that I understand them and their role if a free society. I am stating that distrust of them as they are run by people who can be fallible, dishonest and crooked. But I am also stating that distrust should be passed along to those who wish to advance themselves via means other than through capitalism, but through corruption.

Corruption does not start with those offering the bribe. It needs a public official or policy maker to take it... Today it appears to me, that corruption now stems not passively, but actively from governments. We call it corporate welfare. The government now 'bribes' the corporatist... He pays him off with taxpayer money through programs and incentives, to get his backing during the election season.

Life is hard enough when corporatists are offering individuals in government incentives to sway policy. But when government is offering incentives to corporations to change society, to consolidate power and to gain further control over the governed, free society is all but lost.

Have a nice weekend mate! -Ray

Some good stuff in there mate. I hold nothing against you as you suggest but I would even go as far as saying our differences have more to do with aesthetics than core. We are merely stating opinions, which can be educated to various degrees but should never be taken for gospels. To me, the solution to flawed regulations is neither more nor less regulations but better regulations, which also should be enforced wisely and efficiently. Cheers!

[topdiesel]

What if they system were rigged to begin with? What if the system started out one way and was manipulated to your detriment over and over and over again? This whole dance is far too complicated to summarize in a posting, but power equals control. If the government slowly continues to expand it's power from what light bulbs we can buy to the types of cars we can drive they eliminate dissent and consolidate power. VW manipulating their software to build a car they could actually sell was a middle finger up to these controls. Now that they have been caught they will be punished. An example will be made out of them, which I could see going as far as the German government eventually owning the car maker after a long draw out legal battle.

My feelings on these types of issues are well represented in my last post, but if you are weighing in on thise subject please ask yourself the hard questions like:

Why would VW feel they needed to cheat?

Why do governments continue to expand mpg and emissions regulations if cars are 100 times cleaner than they were 25 years ago?

Why do we just sit back and not feel the need to ask questions relating to government regulation and who makes these decisions ...and why?

More than likely it will become public that many car companies have manipulated data or systems to get around regulations. I read Hyundai was fined $300,000,000 for manipulating mpg ratings to meet government mandates so they could continue selling cars in the US. The larger issue I am concerned about is if the level of regulation has reached a point where it's abusive and not economically feasible to support.

What it comes down to is almost 600,000 people worldwide work for VW. How many of them should be forced to lose their jobs so that a car will produce a fraction less in CO2 or get another .5 mpg?

I agree fully with your perspective regarding the government. That is a separate and frightening issue. The issue I take with Volkswagen lying to their customers.

Volkswagen did get backed into a corner. I just don't agree with them being victims regarding the way they tried to get out of it.

I love Volkswagen cars. I am saddened that some executives cheated in order to compete and tarnished the brand without regard for their customers. Only the bottom line. If the engine could not legally provide all of the power and mpg they promised, then they should not have promised it.