PigFish Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Where is the complexity? I am not one to drone on about old cigars. I am one to miss certain vitolas and models that have been discontinued and sharply criticize Tabacuba for these executive actions. So when we lose a cigar, do we lose something of significance? I think so. It is not that I am going to say that the cigars of past years are better, smoking so few current cigars, I am likely not a good judge of that, but getting to my point; where has the complexity gone? Each of us will use an assortment of labels to describe what he/she smokes. However, the term complexity holds a meaning not easy to deny knowing. I divide complex into three forms. Complexity as I see it, is a range of tastes that can be defined. That is as simple as a definition as I can put on it. Then there is evolution. Evolution is a subset of complexity in that the character of the cigar changes as you smoke it. It is not complexity in itself, but is a part of it. Evolution can occur even in the most monotonic cigar. It is therefore an aspect of taste and sensation that stands on its own. Then finally there is character. The character of a cigar is the organization of traits that make a cigar different and interesting to smoke. A cigar can be complex and still have little character or evolution. It is rather hard for a monotonic cigar to have a lot of character in that character is a subset of complexity. Of course a monotonic cigar could go from robust to bland and that would certainly be a characteristic, therefore adding character to the cigar, but that would not be a good characteristic, nor be reflective of good character! So with our definitions somewhat defined, where has it gone? I remember some outstanding Partagas Petit Coronas that were invitations to a party on your palate. While cigars of today remain smokable and approachable early, some with wonderful tobacco and great smoking experiences awaiting in each, I have come to miss the delightful range of flavors that I used to experience more so in the past then now in the present. Again, I am not looking for a new round of debates over yesteryears cigars verses those of today. I am just wondering if any of you have noted similar experiences. Cheers, and thanks for reading. -The Pig 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtejada Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Where is the complexity? I am not one to drone on about old cigars. I am one to miss certain vitolas and models that have been discontinued and sharply criticize Tabacuba for these executive actions. So when we lose a cigar, do we lose something of significance? I think so. It is not that I am going to say that the cigars of past years are better, smoking so few current cigars, I am likely not a good judge of that, but getting to my point; where has the complexity gone? Each of us will use an assortment of labels to describe what he/she smokes. However, the term complexity holds a meaning not easy to deny knowing. I divide complex into three forms. Complexity as I see it, is a range of tastes that can be defined. That is as simple as a definition as I can put on it. Then there is evolution. Evolution is a subset of complexity in that the character of the cigar changes as you smoke it. It is not complexity in itself, but is a part of it. Evolution can occur even in the most monotonic cigar. It is therefore an aspect of taste and sensation that stands on its own. Then finally there is character. The character of a cigar is the organization of traits that make a cigar different and interesting to smoke. A cigar can be complex and still have little character or evolution. It is rather hard for a monotonic cigar to have a lot of character in that character is a subset of complexity. Of course a monotonic cigar could go from robust to bland and that would certainly be a characteristic, therefore adding character to the cigar, but that would not be a good characteristic, nor be reflective of good character! So with our definitions somewhat defined, where has it gone? I remember some outstanding Partagas Petit Coronas that were invitations to a party on your palate. While cigars of today remain smokable and approachable early, some with wonderful tobacco and great smoking experiences awaiting in each, I have come to miss the delightful range of flavors that I used to experience more so in the past then now in the present. Again, I am not looking for a new round of debates over yesteryears cigars verses those of today. I am just wondering if any of you have noted similar experiences. Cheers, and thanks for reading. -The Pig This was a great explanation Piggy. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohn7 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Can't say, as I've only been privy to the more recent productions. I will say that very few have the complexity that I would like/expect. Sure, most cigars evolve during a smoke, but very few have character or the complexity I hope to see. HdM has had some solid sticks that show evolution, complexity and character. Most others have had one or two or those qualities, but not all three. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigarbreak Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I have not had much experience with older cigars but what I do notice in what ive smoked from current regular production, the longer cigars (DC's) have been complex; they evolve and also have character. But as we whittle down the size, I find that evolution and complexity diminish, while retaining character. It would be nice to try something in the Petit Corona size or smaller that actually had noticeable evolution and complexity. I actually got to meet up yesterday with a fellow botl form the forum here and he was generous enough to include a Punch Petit Corona (I think) from 2003 in our trade which I have a hopeful feeling might be spectacular and may hold this trifecta of Evolution, Character, and Complexity. Pretty excited to light it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I remember some outstanding Partagas Petit Coronas that were invitations to a party on your palate. While cigars of today remain smokable and approachable early, some with wonderful tobacco and great smoking experiences awaiting in each, I have come to miss the delightful range of flavors that I used to experience more so in the past then now in the present. I'm tempted to say that we no longer experience real complexity precisely because we're smoking younger cigars; by "we", I mean people like me, with a similar experience and a similar cigar budget, who used to purchased aged cigars when they were widely available at decent prices (if not discounted). What we loose in complexity we gain in quality of tobacco and disappearance of the dreaded "sick" period… 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigaraholic Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Yes, I've noticed. As to why there's so much bland, boring tobacco coming out of Cuba right now I can only guess. Overproduction, lack of resources, change of strains, too many speciality cigars, I don't know. I do know that when I started smoking....1970....you had to be very unlucky to get a boring box of cigars. Today you have to be very lucky to get a great box. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 As to why there's so much bland, boring tobacco coming out of Cuba right now I can only guess. This is not what Piggy said, and globaly, the opposite is true as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk05 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 There are still certain cigars which exhibit great complexity and consistency yoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbibby Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm tempted to say that we no longer experience real complexity precisely because we're smoking younger cigars; by "we", I mean people like me, with a similar experience and a similar cigar budget, who used to purchased aged cigars when they were widely available at decent prices (if not discounted). What we loose in complexity we gain in quality of tobacco and disappearance of the dreaded "sick" period… Do you think that the quality of the tobacco will lend itself to complexity later in life for more of these recent productions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guybrush Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I feel like quite a lot recent Habanos are very good young and loose quick over the years. But who knows, perhaps they come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yannis Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 just a reminder we all tend to forget. Cubans changed their seed in 1994(?) so the old criollo(?) gone for ever... I was 18-22 when I had the luck to taste my first cigars Davidoffs, and early 90s cohibas. Simply it was another world... I still enjoy and love c.c. and yes there are some great ones(well 10-15% from all production I imagine). Yannis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZCUBAN Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Where is the complexity? I am not one to drone on about old cigars. I am one to miss certain vitolas and models that have been discontinued and sharply criticize Tabacuba for these executive actions. So when we lose a cigar, do we lose something of significance? I think so. It is not that I am going to say that the cigars of past years are better, smoking so few current cigars, I am likely not a good judge of that, but getting to my point; where has the complexity gone? Each of us will use an assortment of labels to describe what he/she smokes. However, the term complexity holds a meaning not easy to deny knowing. I divide complex into three forms. Complexity as I see it, is a range of tastes that can be defined. That is as simple as a definition as I can put on it. Then there is evolution. Evolution is a subset of complexity in that the character of the cigar changes as you smoke it. It is not complexity in itself, but is a part of it. Evolution can occur even in the most monotonic cigar. It is therefore an aspect of taste and sensation that stands on its own. Then finally there is character. The character of a cigar is the organization of traits that make a cigar different and interesting to smoke. A cigar can be complex and still have little character or evolution. It is rather hard for a monotonic cigar to have a lot of character in that character is a subset of complexity. Of course a monotonic cigar could go from robust to bland and that would certainly be a characteristic, therefore adding character to the cigar, but that would not be a good characteristic, nor be reflective of good character! So with our definitions somewhat defined, where has it gone? I remember some outstanding Partagas Petit Coronas that were invitations to a party on your palate. While cigars of today remain smokable and approachable early, some with wonderful tobacco and great smoking experiences awaiting in each, I have come to miss the delightful range of flavors that I used to experience more so in the past then now in the present. Again, I am not looking for a new round of debates over yesteryears cigars verses those of today. I am just wondering if any of you have noted similar experiences. Cheers, and thanks for reading. -The Pig Could not agree more Ray and as usual so eloquently put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I still find it occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 But I have been unfortunately finding a lot of under filled again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvickery Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 true complexity ... like true strength ... comes only with age . patient derrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jeremy Festa Posted October 23, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2014 With only 7 or 8 years experience dabbling solely in Cuban Cigars, I am going to go out on a limb here, hopefully contribute to the discussion, by flat out disagreeing with you on this. I like the breakdown of your definitions, and applying them to my own experience, I have certainly witnessed an increase in complexity, including its subsets of evolution and character. Now, I have been fortunate enough to experience numerous aged cigars. Some 20 to 30 years, more 10 to 20 years, and loads of 5 to 10 years. Also, numerous RE, EL, Reserva, GR, customs and the odd farmy. I would say 1 in 10 has been not complex and therefore boring. Some of the more recent production 2010/11/12 & 13 has been outstanding with minimal age. Some of the most complex and interesting cigars I have had have been 2012, in particular. Setting aside the ever so slight decline of the taste and olfactory senses with age. I believe the biggest factor at play here, in one's experience in distinguishing complexity with cigars declining, is retrospectivity. Looking back, in fondness of an experience continually enhances and exaggerates that experience. I have had some terrible experiences, in life, like being chased by police in Mexico, in fear for my life. While it was horrific at the time, retrospectively, it is now an awesome memory that I tell at all new dinner parties. I have had a couple near death experiences, that I am now quite fond of. I have had hundreds of food moments, that have either improved or declined, as we try to replicate, relive or remember. And I am the same with cigars, I have had a couple that I look back on, that I know where pretty good, but have become great when looking back at them. So, I don't think the complexity has gone anywhere. I have definitely witnessed an increase in it, as my experience increases. More nuances, and flavour profiles, and subtle changes. I like the evolution definition in particular. And I think nearly every cigar I have smoked to this point has had character. Froth on, Jer 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rye Posted October 23, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2014 Multiple distinguishable flavours are in many current cigars IMO, and the "trifecta" as Piggy mentioned above can still be found in a few that I enjoy smoking. Within 5-10 years they smooth out and really start showing their true colours. Now for some of my examples I would include; Monte Especials ()- I've been very fortunate to have been given very well aged ones to compare, and they still share very much of the profile as the younger ones Partagas 898's and Lusi's- Fantastic tastes, and progression (or evolution as stated above) combine to give me a smoking experience that I can really relate to having character. Very young LGC no.2's (2013) aren't as multi-flavoured as of yet, but the flavor transitions as the cigar progresses are fantastic and scream "character" if you will. The no.4's are like a shorter more concentrated version of the same, and in only 1 1/2yrs of age, I can already taste further complexities developing, and I am pretty confident that they show promise to becoming as good, or better than the aged examples I've had in the past. Now, a beast cigar such as the Canadian ER Super Allones seem to be really starting to show their full roster of flavours, and oh, what a character that one is! Now to say that they no longer produce complex cigars is, in my humble opinion, completely wrong. It is something cuban tobacco has that no one other growing region can replicate. I tried very hard to find complexity, evolution, and character in NC cigars, and I've tried many, while there are many good cigars out there, most of the NC's fell short in achieving the trifecta I was looking for. I am not at all saying that all Habanos are complex. Not at all, (JL2's bore the piss outta me) but as per the OP, I urge those that think this way to try and go at the fresher offerings with a fresh palate, and an open mind, for it could be you clouding your own experience, or it could be you are just chasing a dragon that has been fantasized in your own mind into something unobtainable. Or maybe your tastebuds are fried... Or maybe, just maybe, you created the best damn collection possible, and nothing will ever compare... My two bits. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Complex is of course subjective. We all taste different things and will describe what we taste in our own terms. For example; I smoked a wonderful '06 Cohiba CE on Monday. It was a wonderful cigar! I could identify 3 main tastes, as I said it was a nice cigar. But, three tastes to me, is moderately complex. I just have not had many cigars from the mid- 2000's that just really take me for a challenging ride… It does not mean that all these cigars are monotonic, boring or bad… It just means that they don't appear to have the complexity that I used to find quite often, even in young cigars. It could be me of course, a run of cigars and/or other factors. I cannot take myself out of the equation. I just don't find the run of the mill (average cigar) from the post '05 time frame that just hits me as one of the best cigars I have ever tasted. Prior to this period, even in early 2000's cigars, I would often find some wonderful examples. Upmann Lonsdales and QdO coronas were prime examples. Same with the D-1… I think that overall, cigars may have gotten better on average. I have no argument with a better 'average' cigar. So this is not a statement of "declining cigars" from Cuba. For me anyway, there is just a hole where some of these exceptional cigars used to be more commonplace. Cheers! -Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I feel like quite a lot recent Habanos are very good young and loose quick over the years. But who knows, perhaps they come back. And do you have specific examples to support this claim? I'm curious, as I haven't experienced this with my boxes from 2008, 2009, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGC Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And do you have specific examples to support this claim? I'm curious, as I haven't experienced this with my boxes from 2008, 2009, etc. I have specific examples of this from Boli PCs, Boli Corona Extras, RASS, etc... from post-2004. These cigars were rich and fuller at a younger age... and are now dead. This confirmed by multiple cigars being smoked by different cigars. I am fully aware that there will be inconsistencies within the same box, but it is unacceptable to have an entire box (cab) go dead after 8-10 years... if the tobacco quality and blend is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guybrush Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And do you have specific examples to support this claim? I'm curious, as I haven't experienced this with my boxes from 2008, 2009, etc. Of course I do: Punch Royal Selection No.11, Montecristo Sublime EL 2008, Bolivar Poderoso ER Benelux, La Gloria Cubana Inmensos.. Also Montecristo No.2 seem to be best young. For my taste of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginseng Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 So many illuminating replies in this thread. Really very good discourse. My overall impression is that the range, the peaks and valleys of experience have flattened out over the years. I don't have 30 years in so that leaves me at a disadvantage with respect to historical sea changes in tobacco strains and their culture. Still, over 10-15 years, there have been so many changes as to render reflections highly dependent on the idiosyncrasies of individual experience. I defer to those who have kept more detailed and persistent journals as therein lie the best chances for teasing out the actual from merely the perceived. Are there stimulating cigars being produced today. I think the consensus tends to yes. Are there uninteresting cigars being produced today? Again, yes. I think that it has just become rather less reliable to find consistent performance within a given marca or vitola. Wilkey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonVivant Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 ..... Are there stimulating cigars being produced today. I think the consensus tends to yes. Are there uninteresting cigars being produced today? Again, yes. I think that it has just become rather less reliable to find consistent performance within a given marca or vitola. Wilkey This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Complex cigars are still being produced in Cuba, just not in such abundant quantities, as in the mid 90s - these days it can become quiet frustrating trying to find a hidden gem or three, from all that is being produced lately. Consistency is another problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1LegLance Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So I started regularly smoking cigars in the early 90's...so figure over 20yrs at this game. At that time I had a chance to smoke cigars dating back to the 60's. Pre-boom auction prices were somewhat reasonable and there were far far more aged stock in the pipelines. Heck some vendors didn't even charge extra for something with 10yrs on it. I very much remember and can pull notes from sticks back then that HAD to be aged, the strength of that Criollo seed was impressive. And now I admit I have a terrible sense of taste/smell. But I could still enjoy the aging process and recognize the changes going on over the course of years even if I could not name the taste. What I have seen since the mid 2000's is that cigars seem milder, seem almost "pre-aged" and don't have the strength fresh that they used to. That said I honestly think there are fewer construction issues and more "sameness" across boxes. That is good and bad. But like others have said...cigars change, I change, the world changes...."No man ever steps through the same river twice, for he is not the same man and it is not the same river" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anacostiakat Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Complex cigars are still being produced in Cuba, just not in such abundant quantities, as in the mid 90s - these days it can become quiet frustrating trying to find a hidden gem or three, from all that is being produced lately. Consistency is another problem. This^^^^ The addition of the consistency issue just makes it more of a crap shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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