Accused of selling fake Siglo VI Tubos

[El Presidente]

Some mornings are better than others

A gentlemen sent this through. We know they are not fake unless PCC is distributing fakes throught the Asia Pacific ;-) . Have a read below and check your own VI tubos stocks. All mine have an 8 panel closure. All mine have the Habanos diagonal sticker minus the black stripe.

I could ring / e-mail Habanos and they would get beck to me in a few days. I suspect tube supplier has changed or they are using two suppliers. Still if you can check your stock for me lets see when the change was made.

Thanks guys.

Lisa, I am thoroughly distraught. I received some Siglo 6s tubos from you.

The legitimate cap uses 16-panel closure at the top while a counterfeit specimen uses 8-panel. The authentic specimen uses 8-panel at the base of the tube while a counterfeit specimen uses a cap-piece. This is not the case with your cigars. Also on the Habanos label i am missing a black stripe that runs adjacently to the gold. I find this throughly upsetting. I would like an explanation. Seeing that they are fake i will not ruin your reputation. I will simply ask for my money back unless i receive further explanation.

Thanks

[jaylax5]

Wow Rob...any pics to share?

[mkz]

» if you can check your stock for me lets see when the change was made.

I WISH I had an stock of these to examine...

[Colt45]

I do not have any Siglo VI tubes, but I checked four RyJ Short Churchill tubes from two different three packs.

All have eight ribs (and not all that evenly spaced) on the cap, and a cap piece at the foot.

[Tampa1257]

As we all know, Club Czar is ONLY supplied by Pacific Cigar Company (PCC). I do not stock Siglo VI Tubos, but I have 2-3 in the humidor at home, which I will check this evening.

For someone to cry Fake from Packageing alone is IMHO absurb. We are dealing with Cuba and there are Packageing abnormalities all the time, click on the link below as an example.

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/board_entr...er&descasc=DESC

I travel the majority of the known and well established cigar forums, and this information about the Tubo Caps, Panels and stripes is not something that has been discussed to my knowledge. This individual speaks like it is simple common knowledge. Without smoking the cigar; I, nor anyone else, could as a matter of fact make a rational statement that the cigars were fake.

I will check my inventory this evening, but I also want to know where this "The legitimate cap uses 16-panel closure at the top while a counterfeit specimen uses 8-panel. The authentic specimen uses 8-panel at the base of the tube while a counterfeit specimen uses a cap-piece. This is not the case with your cigars. Also on the Habanos label i am missing a black stripe that runs adjacently to the gold." information comes from, the sources and the validity of this info. Or is this a Hoax with intent to defame Club Czar?

[soltino]

» if you can check your stock for me lets see when the change was made.

I picked up some Siglo VI tubos from your good selves at the end of last year, they all have an 8 panel cap and base.

I would agree with Tampa; with all the inconsistencies in Cuban manufacturing I really don't think you could categorically say a cigar is fake based upon the packaging.... and the Siglo VI I have had from the Czar have been nothing short of exquisite.

[Grasso]

Given inconsistencies in Cuban production, stating "these are fakes" just from the construction of a tube and a sticker change seems fairly brash. At some point recently, they may have changed the location where the tubes were welded - the new vendor realized that welding 4 lines was vastly more efficient than 8; just an example of what may have taken place.

I can't say any more than that on the tubes, but the Habanos corner sticker on my MAY07 Fonseca Cadetes (not from the vendor in question) has NO black lines.

Tampa, that "real ones have 16 wedges, fakes have 8" came from a poster on another forum, and as far as I can tell (although I may be incorrect, of course) - that person got their information from a single comparison between a real one with 16/8, and a fake one with 8/cap - found [link=http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25099&hl=]HERE[/link]. While that analysis included the tubes - the final decision that they were fake was largely based on the scent/taste of the cigars.

(Hope it's okay that I linked to that page - please chastise me if it's not :-) )

[Colt45]

For the sake of impartiality, here is thread on the topic posted by Ginseng some time ago.

In and of themselves, the tubes do not make a case for fugazis, though in this instance the

cigars were suspect:

[link=http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/board_entry.php?id=33566#p33566.tld/]Click Here[/link]

P.S. I have no wish to cast aspersions on the email's author, and I'm surely not trying to crap

on Rob

[mkz]

First thing i´m gonna do when I come home from work is to check my one and only sig6 tube and se how its constructed...

Exiting!!

[tigger]

Rob,

I sent you a link to another site with the same information that Colt referenced as a possible source of some of the verbage in the "complaint."

If I wanted to buy Siglo VIs (I'm not a fan, personally), I would buy them from you folks in a heartbeat. :-D

[El Presidente]

The point of this is not to cast any form of negativity on the author of the e-mail. Simply to assist is answering.

I could simply give him Dag Holmboes e-mail and a letter of authenticity would be forthcoming but it would be better to answer the specific points raised.

Personally I have never looked at the inside of a Siglo VI cap before. I really have never had a need to do so

I do know however that Habanos s.a tenders out its tube production. Similarly any manufacturer will try to simplify manufacturing in an effort to reduce manufcaturing time and minimize cost.

Just trying to nail down the time frame the changes were made.

[Guest rob]

Seems a question thread about it is on Cigar Aficionado's Forums:

http://forums.cigaraficionado.com/eve/foru...095/m/323104825

Also, for reference, Wilkey did some research into Sig VI tubes in this thread:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?...topic=25099&hl=

[craigos]

I have a siglo VI tubo I got from a LCDH in Europe and it has 8 panels. I know its not a fake as I smoked its contents next to a SLB 25 sample 2 days ago and both we the same flavor.

[craigos]

» I have a siglo VI tubo I got from a LCDH in Europe and it has 8 panels. I

» know its not a fake as I smoked its contents next to a SLB 25 sample 2

» days ago and both were the same flavor.

PS: I got this tubo in Dec of last year (Spain).

[craigos]

» » I have a siglo VI tubo I got from a LCDH in Europe and it has 8 panels.

» I

» » know its not a fake as I smoked its contents next to a SLB 25 sample 2

» » days ago and both were the same flavor.

»

» PS: I got this tubo in Dec of last year (Spain).

I checked my office neighbours tubo samples too ... he got his from Europe (diff supplier) - 8 panels as well. So I got 10 tubo's here all with 8 panels. His were from earlier this year, mine bought in Dec 07.

[CIGARHead]

Rob,

I only have 3 tubos. They have 16 panel cap. Seems they are either using two different suppliers for the tubes or they have phased out the 16 panel. (I got these from you in early 07/late 06)

Folks need to remember that HSA can and does change packaging

without notice. For instance, have a close look at the Indian head logo that is branded on a box of Cohiba from recent 07 stock and compare it to an 06 box. They are slightly different. There was no press release or reason given regarding this slight change.

Hope your day turns for the better mate.

[Tampa1257]

Perhaps Wilkey can speak up concerning the Tubos. He really is one who has done a lot of research in the realm of Fakes.

I also remember that there was a period of time when Habanos S.A. could not afford the manufacturing of the Tubos because of not having the hard currancy to pay for them.

[Trevor2118]

Hi Rob

I have 2 x 3-packs purchased from you in February 2007.

These are 16 panel tops & the boxes only have the gold stripe, no black. on the Habanos label (not the tube).

Trevor.

[havanaclub7]

Rob,

I say cut him off! That will leave more for the rest of us!

[Shelby07]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but the fact that the Prez publicized the issue and is asking his customers to double check their stock speaks volumes for the integrity of the man.

I am impressed, to say the least.

[ArloGut]

» I don't have a dog in this hunt, but the fact that the Prez publicized the

» issue and is asking his customers to double check their stock speaks

» volumes for the integrity of the man.

»

» I am impressed, to say the least.

I agree with Shelby, this just shows that the Cigar Czar is of the highest honesty and integrity.

[Cohiba007]

I have 8 panel tops and they are delicious. Maybe you should run a sale on 8 panel tops. I will take some off your hands:-D

[Guest gradymrobertson]

One - three pack purchased from the Czar 4/17/2008.

8 panel cap

8 panel base

No black stripe.

[jb007]

» One - three pack purchased from the Czar 4/17/2008.

» 8 panel cap

» 8 panel base

» No black stripe.

the only one i have was a gift from my friend, and i don't know where he picked it up, but it has an 8 panel base and 16 panel cap, with a black strip below the cohiba brand-name.

i'm no pro though but it seems that there is some variation in the tubos. i suppose what you do with your customer is upto you and lisa though rob, but i trust you guys, and i doubt that PCC would stooge you guys, and i think your good enough business people not to stooge others on purpose, so who knows...

[Ginseng]

» Some mornings are better than others

I apologize for my late attention to this matter. Please bear with me in this long post as I try to respond adequately.

I am the fellow who wrote up an analysis of a batch of counterfeit cigars I received nearly two years ago. I feel that I have to take some responsibility in this matter as an uncritical reading of that report would lead one to think that the features I noted were definitive and diagnostic. Here is the complete text of the section of that post pertaining to the Siglo VI tubes construction. Note that the post has not been edited since August 13, 2006. I have bolded sections for emphasis:

8. Multiple structural and printing differences between the xprinter's Siglo VI tube and authentic specimens. I have had Sig VI tubes from three different vendors acquired over about a year and the construction of the tube cap and tube body are unlike the one provided by xprinter. Here are some photos. In the first photo, the legitimate cap uses 16-panel closure at the top while xprinter's specimen uses 8-panel. In the second photo, the authentic specimen uses 8-panel at the base of the tube while xprinter's specimen uses a cap-piece.

In the absence of definitive information from the manufacturer of the legitimate Cohiba tubes, I can't say for sure that this observation means anything in particular about the legitimacy of xprinter's specimens. I can only say that that tube is constructed differently from several others I know to be authentic.

Here are two photos of xprinter's tube on the left and one of my tubes on the right. Note the minute but discernible differences in the text/type, indian head, dot pattern, length of the cedar insert, and gold-tone joint piece. Curiouser and curiouser.

And a portion of the summation:

Overall, the the picture painted by these observations leads me to strongly suspect all the cigars to be counterfeit. I did not lay out every step of the analysis of every bit of data that xprinter provided but that more detailed examination suggests that these are almost certainly all fakes. And, when coupled with this quote on the method of procurement, my certainty level approaches 100%

And the quote in question from the provider of these specimens:

As far as my source goes everything has been good just hard to verify, I do know that he goes to cuba himself and some how gets them back to the US.

So, it appears that this person has taken what was presented merely as data, as but one clue among a portfolio of evidence from a single case study, and two years old at that, as definitive proof of the inauthenticity of the Siglo VI from CigarCzar. I'm afraid that the way in which he handled it was misguided. His use of the observations I reported was equally misguided and injudicious. He could have contacted me as others have in the past, either here or at the other forum but he did not.

For my part in this, I accept full responsibility for publishing this information, apparently without sufficient qualification or disclaimers regarding its interpretation and use. I carried out this work when I was just beginning and perhaps my fault was in seeming just a bit too sure of what it all meant. One can never really anticipate all the ways in which one's work can be used or abused. If one tried, progress would be stifled. For my contribution to this strife, I offer my profound apologies to Rob Ayala and the entire Czar organization.

Rob, if you have occasion to respond to this fellow, you can tell him this from the originator of the information on which he is apparently basing his accusation.

1. You should have supreme confidence in the product offered by CigarCzar. Countless testimonials and utter transparency with respect to supply channel and operational philosophy have virtually ensured that Czar has been and remains one of the perfectly unsullied retailers of Habanos not just in the PCC region but worldwide.

2. The information and observations I provided in the original article are nearly two years old. Specifically in regard to the Siglo VI tube and its details of construction, it is not unusual for producers to change suppliers of such commodity items as aluminum cigar tubes. I researched tube manufacturers a year ago and found a multitude of tube makers in Europe and Asia. At the time, I had heard that Habanos had shifted production of tubes from one manufacturer to at least one new one but I could not substantiate this and so I did not report it.

3. There are many details of tube construction that can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. One of these is the number of petals in the closed end. This number varies from none apparent, to 16 or possibly more depending on the radius of the closed end, the alloy used, and the diameter of the tube. Because of this, a single case can be no more than an illustration of the variation that is inherent in a product that can be made in a multitude of different ways. Simply, what I presented was information and suggestive in the context of those specific specimens because without an exhaustive collection tracing the lineage of tubes and their changes, no positive determination can be made to either authenticity or inauthenticity.

I think that is about all I can do. I hope this fellow will take this information to heart and act accordingly.

What "casual" students of Habanos (with respect to their authenticity) often do not realize is just how equivocal nearly ANY observation or finding truly is. In reality, there are but a handful of reliably diagnostic clues and I'm afraid to say that these appear to be diminishing with time. In other words, the counterfeiters are getting better at what they do.

On the other end of the pitch the variation you see in nearly all aspects of authentic Habanos would stagger your mind. Rob himself has offered some amazing examples of what one could potentially encounter and, absent the necessary trust and confidence in your provider and his supply chain, would immediately trigger doubt.

To his good work, I would like to add one more just to give you an idea of the nearly unlimited possibilities. Here is the cedar top sheet from a cab of SLR Double Coronas. Notice anything strange?

How about if we take a closer look at the emblem in the center?

Your eyes are not deceiving you. The emblem that is usually burned in with an iron was burned in...but freehand, with something like a pointed woodburning or soldering iron. I kid you not. This box and the cigars were otherwise exactly as expected in every way. Cigars were smoked by one significantly familiar with this particular vitola and determined to be authentic. But yet, how do you explain something like this? The source was of a tier below Czar with respect to absolute transparency of supply but to date without a single credible claim of providing counterfeits.

So let me end it here. Whomever you are, Lisa and Rob will do what it takes to provide satisfaction. My advice is to keep your cigars, smoke them, enjoy them, and thank them for everything that they do for you and for all of us.

Wilkey