Fakes. Who cares?

[LordAnubis]

Looking at that article about fake Cohibas in Switzerland bar or whatever. One thing that struck me was the “investigation”. I mean hey it’s no Interpol investigation but what surprised me was people taking the time out of their life to investigate. 

So my question. Who cares about fakes? 
Yes this is the worst place to ask. We all of course do. And there’s the whole “charging full price for a product that’s not really the product” thing and I totally get that but.

But let me paint the picture. Rich banker sitting down with rich client whom he wants more business from. He says I know a luxury bar. Let’s go and smoke finest cigars and whiskey. Do you think they really care if it’s the real deal? To me I think they’re just there for the show boating. Similarly all the usual suspects who buy fakes on the streets in Central America. Do you think they really care? I think even if they knew (I mean it’s pretty obvious on the streets really) they were buying fakes most wouldn’t care. A cigar is a cigar is a cigar. 
Do you think I’m wrong?

[Jack]

Slippery slope and all that.

I see it more about honesty and integrity. There's certainly the luxury item aspect of many items that are counterfeited.

If the agreement is "if they don't notice, what does it matter?", then it's just a race to the bottom.

Not implying you subscribe to that and I appreciate you opening the dialog.

[JohnS]

[loose_axle]

Some don't. I've had one or two work acquaintances who've visited Cuba a few times and swear that they're getting the real deal from cigars off the street from a vendor who's cousin who works in one of the factories. I've told them a few times they're almost certainly fakes but they don't care or stop. For them being able to say they've got real Cubans at a really good deal trumps anything else. 

[El Presidente]

7 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Looking at that article about fake Cohibas in Switzerland bar or whatever. One thing that struck me was the “investigation”. I mean hey it’s no Interpol investigation but what surprised me was people taking the time out of their life to investigate. 

So my question. Who cares about fakes? 
Yes this is the worst place to ask. We all of course do. And there’s the whole “charging full price for a product that’s not really the product” thing and I totally get that but.

But let me paint the picture. Rich banker sitting down with rich client whom he wants more business from. He says I know a luxury bar. Let’s go and smoke finest cigars and whiskey. Do you think they really care if it’s the real deal? To me I think they’re just there for the show boating. Similarly all the usual suspects who buy fakes on the streets in Central America. Do you think they really care? I think even if they knew (I mean it’s pretty obvious on the streets really) they were buying fakes most wouldn’t care. A cigar is a cigar is a cigar. 
Do you think I’m wrong?

 

Mus, it's when the seller knows. Then it's fraud.

We brought to the attention (5 years ago) of a major online (and B&M) that a vintage Por Larranaga humidor was fake. The empty humidor was sold on auction site todocoleccion two years prior. Lo and behold, it was listed for sale "full".

Response? Bullshit. 

Fraud is fraud. 

[TacoSauce]

6 hours ago, loose_axle said:

or them being able to say they've got real Cubans at a really good deal

Well, if they bought them in Cuba, then they most probably did receive real Cuban cigars -- probably re-banded farm rolls. They might even have spent less on them than they would have if they tried to get similar farm rolls shipped to the states. It is possible that while they don't have genuine Habanos, they might still be in a good spot.

Edit: I hadn't read the original post in the thread until after I posted my comment. I now see that this two-sided view of fakes is exactly the issue posed by OP.

[westg]

Did you want a refund with fake Cohiba you purchased? Did you receive a refund ? Or you didn't care? Or did you sell them and didn't care ?????

Some of Rob's posts with fakes really makes me wonder why even bother? It's fraud and the overflow effect is frightening. I can't see a rich banker taking an approach like that, as you mentioned.  

[AusDyer]

Fraud should never be excused. If you lower the bar at the top especially, then you lower the bar everywhere else very quickly because you're then just normalizing it as a legitimate business practice which other businesses WILL copy if they see they can just get away with it and people are too apathetic to care.

Also, this is the extreme end of the spectrum, but if something like that happens mainstream for long enough, most people would just get used to it and even start to believe that IS what Cuban cigars should taste like and never know anything different and probably even actively argue that this is reality. Not to wander too far off topic, but this is actually happening in different degrees with other industries like movies, music etc, massively altering how new generations view the past and dismiss anything old in complete ignorance - they just live on opinions they've been fed online.

[Corylax18]

13 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Do you think I’m wrong?

In a word, Yes. 

I understand your argument regarding the bankers. You could legitimately argue that they got what they wanted from the situation. But, as others have said above, its a slippery slope. If it becomes accepted sometimes, then there's a good chance it will be accepted most of the time, or all of the time. It shouldn't ever be accepted. As Rob mentioned above, its the knowledge of the seller of fraud that is really unacceptable. I understand the desire to and lack of disdain towards taking advantage of Rich Idiots, but either this shop knew, or they are very, very bad at what they do. Neither scenario motivates me to spend my money with them. Maybe there are enough Rich Idiots to keep a business like this going for a long period of time, but even honest cigar businesses fail regularly, so a fraudulent or incompetent one shouldn't be long for this world. 

[chasy]

It’s easy to create a scenario where you don’t feel sympathy. “Rich bankers” who don’t care about authentic cigars just trying to show off to their rich clients. Maybe. What about a non-rich person who doesn’t know the difference between fake and authentic cigar? What about a rich banker who loves cigars and feels taken advantage of.

In short you’re saying, "if the user of the fake product doesn’t know, does it matter?"

I'm sure there are many, many products I use or consume in life where I wouldn’t know the difference between the authentic version and a good fake. Should I not care then because I can’t tell the difference?

Trust is the backbone of basically everything in life involving more than one person. As soon as trust is gone, you enter complete chaos.

Many economists have done studies on ‘high trust’ vs ‘low trust’ societies and the impact it has on virtually everything.

Would you care if your significant other cheated on you if you never found out?

https://ourworldindata.org/trust

[LordAnubis]

So let me ask this another way. I totally understand Fraud and slippery slope blah blah and that’s not my question.  

You go to a shop. The seller has two cigars for sale. Genuine Cohiba for 50 bucks. High end fake Cohiba for 20 bucks. It’s clearly advertised it’s a fake. Will the fake outsell the real deal? I think it will. The price disparity is a big driver here the larger the disparity the more chances the fake will be success, but as a principle you think the fake will get more action cos a buck saving is a buck saving. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Obviously on here the fake wouldn’t get a crack of day light. But to the average foot traffic of a shop, would it also be the case? 

The example of @loose_axle colleagues is exactly what I’m getting at. 

[westg]

The flipping world turned you blind long ago. Shame on anyone who willingly sells fake cigars or anything else for that matter. I guess some people can easily find a way to forgive themselves. 

[chasy]

Maybe? I suppose we could hypothesize this to death. Look at a comps - pretty sure fake Louis Vuitton bags outsell authentic Louis Vuitton bags in terms of quantity. Is that true for Bordeaux? Not sure. And not sure it matters. The market should offer a $50 authentic Cohiba and a $30 H Upmann and see which sells better. Not a $30 fake Cohiba…

[LordAnubis]

7 hours ago, westg said:

The flipping world turned you blind long ago. Shame on anyone who willingly sells fake cigars or anything else for that matter. I guess some people can easily find a way to forgive themselves. 

Didn’t hear you complaining when you buying cheap bhk and Siglo 6 😂🫣

[westg]

7 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Didn’t hear you complaining when you buying cheap bhk and Siglo 6 😂🫣

Seriously. You were unemployed at the time. And gave you exactly what you asked for. Behike maybe a single somewhere, you never sold a box to me. Happy to sell those Sig VI back to you at current market value. 😀 

Plenty of stuff to complain about though. You sound worried 😟 

[BrightonCorgi]

Fraud is fraud. Doesn't matter one's disdain of the duped. One's intent for smoking the cigars does not matter.  

[LigSecVol]

Didn't know about this. Just looked it up online. I agree with the comments that fraud is fraud.

I gotta say... aside from some detectable alignment, fake bands are getting closer and closer to the real deal. 

Heck if the small behike head inside the bigger was aligned properly, one could hardly tell. Especially in a bar environment.

[LordAnubis]

6 hours ago, westg said:

Seriously. You were unemployed at the time. And gave you exactly what you asked for. Behike maybe a single somewhere, you never sold a box to me. Happy to sell those Sig VI back to you at current market value. 😀 

Plenty of stuff to complain about though. You sound worried 😟 

Can’t get current market price man, that’s fraud 😁 fitty dorrars 😁

[Cigar Surgeon]

Beyond the fraud aspect which has been addressed, I have a serious concern about health impacts.

What's in the fake cigar? Floor sweepings? Tobacco that has toxic chemicals applied to it? Tobacco that was rejected because it's grown in an area with high lead or cadmium concentration in the soil?

Someone who is willing to commit fraud is probably not concerned about your health and well being.

In the example provided, imagine if the whisky they were pouring was counterfeit. Potential methanol contamination, or incomplete distillation. I would not chance it to save a buck.

[SCgarman]

55 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Beyond the fraud aspect which has been addressed, I have a serious concern about health impacts.

What's in the fake cigar? Floor sweepings? Tobacco that has toxic chemicals applied to it? Tobacco that was rejected because it's grown in an area with high lead or cadmium concentration in the soil?

Someone who is willing to commit fraud is probably not concerned about your health and well being.

In the example provided, imagine if the whisky they were pouring was counterfeit. Potential methanol contamination, or incomplete distillation. I would not chance it to save a buck.

I believe several years ago several people died from methanol poisoning at a caribbean resort that was "diluting" their alcohol spirits. BTW, no fake Cubans for myself. Before educating myself, I bought the infamous five count glass top box of "Montecristo" #2 (sort of) cigars. They tasted like smoking dirt. Literally. We all live and learn!